rigorousintuition.ca

Did Giffords subscribe to assassin's YouTube?
Bizarre connection: Online pages indicate some type of relationship
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=249381

cc wrote:so seriously does anyone have a screenshot? because otherwise this might as well have never happened

I saw it on her youtube channel with my own two eyes on Sunday as well.

elfismiles wrote:

justdrew wrote:

Crow wrote:I've seen on another blog that Loughner was known for making threats, but never arrested because his mother was a government employee. Will try to find the link.

right wing bullshit to smear the sheriff, who's said some very accurate things about right-wing media personalities.

So becuz he's said some things you are in agreement with re: "right-wing media personalities" that means he and his office / officers couldn't possibly have received multiple warnings from others about Loughner nor actually arrested him previously (on paraphernalia charges) as has been alleged?

EDIT TO ADD:

Jared Loughner has been making death threats by phone to many people in Pima County including staff of Pima Community College, radio personalities and local bloggers.

http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/201 ... ks-office/

Of course the about page for that site (Cholla Jumps) is interesting...

James Kelley is a native of Tucson, born here in 1961. A Navy veteran, he graduated twice from the Defense Language Institute in Monterey CA majoring in Albanian and Persian-Farsi. He was a Balkan area, Middle East North Africa, Southwest Asia, and Gulf Area analyst for the Naval Security Group and the National Security Agency. He received his Bachelor of Science in Sociology from the University of the State of New York, Albany. Since leaving the service he has worked as a premium cruise line representative, telecommunications specialist, real estate broker, and as a substitute teacher in local school districts.

Presently, Mr. Kelley is a contributing columnist for the Arizona News-Telegraph and the Executive Director of SocialNetworkingWatchdog.Org, a 501(c)3 non-profit organization dedicated to educating youth and seniors on personal security while using social networking.

He is politically active supporting conservative causes and serves as a precinct committeeman in the 29th Legislative District for the Pima County Republican party and a State Committeeman for the Arizona GOP.

He is the father of 2, James and Victoria , and the grandfather of Essemai Sophia and Lucien Francisco.

http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/abo ... lla-jumps/

Well, I don't believe his mom's position is particularly consequential, and have a hard time believing that any non-arresting deference would be made because of her job.

I'm curious how this James Kelley could possibly have came by this information?

It certainly sounds as though JLL was in some kind of mental health intervention program based on James Kelley's hearsay about what the sheriff said to people complaining about death threats.

JK just posted this:

Since my last post concerning Jared Loughner and his past encounters with law enforcement, it appears that many people want and demand that my source for the information I posted be disclosed.

First and foremost, I struggled with ever writing the post I wrote. I had to source the puzzle pieces and vet the information with people who assured me they had first hand information regarding Jared Loughner. I wanted documentation. Unfortunately the mere possesion of the documentation would be a violation of HIPPA laws and the track back would be detrimental to the livelyhoods and lives of the people involved.

Anyone in Law Enforcement or Mental Health in Pima County that ever had contact with Mr. Loughner is now in bunker mode. Everyone is afraid of lawsuits down the road. They are evaluating their behavior and checking to make sure they followed all rules governing the care of Jared Loughner.

Lawfully some of the people that had knowledge of Mr Loughner could never come forward without subpoena by a lawful authority. Others are just too afraid.

It is my sincere hope that transparency in the investigation will prevail. We are dealing with very big issues that will affect the prosecution and defense of Loughner.

That is the only thing that should be of concern to law enforcement at the moment.

people who received death threats from him in the past would have no reason not to talk about it now. Have any come forward? bloggers and local radio talk show hosts for instance? Hard to believe they'd all be silent about it.

elfismiles wrote:

justdrew wrote:

Crow wrote:I've seen on another blog that Loughner was known for making threats, but never arrested because his mother was a government employee. Will try to find the link.

right wing bullshit to smear the sheriff, who's said some very accurate things about right-wing media personalities.

So becuz he's said some things you are in agreement with re: "right-wing media personalities" that means he and his office / officers couldn't possibly have received multiple warnings from others about Loughner nor actually arrested him previously (on paraphernalia charges) as has been alleged?

EDIT TO ADD:

Jared Loughner has been making death threats by phone to many people in Pima County including staff of Pima Community College, radio personalities and local bloggers.

http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/201 ... ks-office/

Of course the about page for that site (Cholla Jumps) is interesting...

James Kelley is a native of Tucson, born here in 1961. A Navy veteran, he graduated twice from the Defense Language Institute in Monterey CA majoring in Albanian and Persian-Farsi. He was a Balkan area, Middle East North Africa, Southwest Asia, and Gulf Area analyst for the Naval Security Group and the National Security Agency. He received his Bachelor of Science in Sociology from the University of the State of New York, Albany. Since leaving the service he has worked as a premium cruise line representative, telecommunications specialist, real estate broker, and as a substitute teacher in local school districts.

Presently, Mr. Kelley is a contributing columnist for the Arizona News-Telegraph and the Executive Director of SocialNetworkingWatchdog.Org, a 501(c)3 non-profit organization dedicated to educating youth and seniors on personal security while using social networking.

He is politically active supporting conservative causes and serves as a precinct committeeman in the 29th Legislative District for the Pima County Republican party and a State Committeeman for the Arizona GOP.

He is the father of 2, James and Victoria , and the grandfather of Essemai Sophia and Lucien Francisco.

http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/abo ... lla-jumps/

Why does this remind me of a Carl Rove dirty trick?

I sussed out James Kelly after seeing the link. I dunno, his politics is sus (in that this issue is now polarised and he is one side, the one I disagree with - I know.). But then again he might be on the level cos the rush to link the killing and Palin was pretty rabid and rapid and not at all accurate imo.

Despite the fascist nature of her rhetoric.

Hi there, everybody! Thank you, GuyWhoInventedFire, because you have inspired me to take the plunge and finally post here, after having signed up last Friday.

[I've been lurking here since forever, it seems, and it may sound too weird for words, but I finally signed up to participate as part of my self-assigned therapy "homework," -- to try to do one brave thing each day. I'm in therapy for PTSD, and the fact that this RI community has shown so much understanding for its members' struggles with inner pain encouraged me to sign up. I hope this isn't "too much information" for a first post, but I wanted to let y'all know that the general sensitivity found on this board, in spite of the occasional flash of all-too-human temper (in addition, natch, to the irresistible goals of "rigour" and "intuition"! ) prompted me to finally join.]

Now to the topic (and trying to do two more brave things, namely, to try out the bbcode with which I'm not familiar, and secondly, to disagree with our gracious host, Jeff -- yikes!!!) --

Also on reflection, even if the admin for Giffords' Youtube channel knew the ID of the suspect so early, it seems unlikely that he or she would both hastily subscribe to his page and then not login again since.

With no desire to make a bad first impression by using my first post to disagree, gulp!, I must say that comment makes no sense to me from my own experiences with different types of trauma.

From all accounts, Giffords' staff was a friendly, tight-knit group who worked well together. I'm going to assume that her Youtube admin staff member knew Giffords fairly well, and most likely admired her. It's also not unusual for a person with such a job to be out and about with a wireless laptop or an iphone or blackberry. Perhaps that staff member was even present at the shooting? Even if not, I know all too well the kind of shock that strikes when someone you care about very much has been attacked "just" by a mugger, much less shot in the head.

I can also imagine a scenario where law enforcement was very quickly asking staff about Loughner by name, had they ever heard of him? Has he made internet contact, etc. etc. You would think that law enforcement folks at that point had no way of knowing if this guy was acting alone, or if terror was on its way, so VERY quickly asking all staff about him by name makes sense.

I can also imagine an all-things-internet admin, in shock over the situation, could have inadvertantly hit the subscribe button.

I mean, I normally know what belongs in a refrigerator, but under emotional shock, I've been known to put my shoes in the refrigerator, while my mind was racing in panic or horror over a current tragic occurrence. Why would it be unlikely to hit the wrong button? And as to the idea of "forgetting" to go back and unsubscribe, again, I ask why does that seem so strange? Can you imagine the upset, the uproar, the upside-downness of the staff's undoubtedly crazy life these past few days? Just the mourning of a dead staffer (were there more who were "just" injured, other than Giffords, I mean?); imagine the nightmare of trying to carry on with some of the unavoidable work of the office while being interviewed by police and FBI, etc. Preparing to go to funerals. Making calls to other congressional colleagues or constituents to cancel events. Maybe a computer admin doesn't take part in other staffer activities like phone calls, but surely grief can cause serious cognitive problems.

I was greatly upset Saturday evening when I learned of the shooting. It was the first day in a while that I hadn't check out any news. And I was freaked out -- even "only" in second-hand fashion by an event circa 25 years ago -- the multiple shooting by Sylvia Seegrist at the Springfield Mall in Delaware County, Pennsylvania on Oct 30, 1985. Which came to mind, naturally. Because I lived only minutes from that mall, and that same afternoon began to go there with initial eagerness to buy the finishing touches for my Halloween costume -- only to inexplicably change my mind when I was almost there, turn the car around, and drive back home. I suddenly felt weirdly uncomfortable, and just went home. Was it precognition? Dunno. But I mightily freaked out when I found out I would have been on the scene when Seegrist marched through the mall, shooting many shoppers. I felt grateful, then guilty for feeling grateful, if you see what I mean. I was walking around in circles in my apartment that night, and I didn't even KNOW anyone who had been shot.

Imagine if people you knew and loved had been shot, injured grievously, killed -- couldn't you imagine doing the Youtube equivalent of putting your shoes in the refrigerator and completely forgetting about it? Especially if your entire daily "routine" has been completely upended in innumerable ways...

Well, I sure typed slowly enough that maybe somebody else has made a similar comment in this thread in the interim; if so, sorry for the inadvertant redundancy!

Now, to be brave and hit the submit button....

Welcome, Kate!

justdrew wrote:Well, I don't believe his mom's position is particularly consequential, and have a hard time believing that any non-arresting deference would be made because of her job.

Her position doesn't need to be consequential. If there's a small-town atmosphere, some people may have stayed quiet out of loyalty to her, or sympathy because "oh, she has a troubled son, but he's really harmless and she's doing her best to take care of him." That kind of thing happens a lot.

Thanks for the welcome, Crow!

And your comment just now reminded me of a stupid article I read earlier today. About how the neighbors all remarked on how isolated the family was, not talking to them. That the mom had once been friendly and outgoing, but more recently they were all withdrawn, "to themselves."

What was stupid about the article was the way it seemed to suggest something sinister about the whole family. WTF? Maybe the writer lives under a rock and doesn't know how families can be frightened to interact in the neighborhood and make friends if they, themselves, are scared that a family member is truly off the deep end. Even if they might be (in this case, I dunno) denying it to themselves. Just instinctively, you might be protective and not want the neighbors knocking on the door for the proverbial cup of sugar.

This kind of event is a nosy neighbor's dream come true! I posted a link to an AP article (in the main Giffords thread) that quotes one of the neighbors as saying that every time s/he saw Loughner's mother at the grocery store, she had a 30-pack of beer in her shopping cart.

If one of my neighbors ever does something like this, I'm keeping my mouth shut.

on the topic of the sheriff, this is the same one that's refused to enforce the racist anti-immigrant law.

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/09/clare ... n-arizona/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... ation.html

justdrew wrote:on the topic of the sheriff, this is the same one that's refused to enforce the racist anti-immigrant law.

I like him already.

Kate wrote:Thanks for the welcome, Crow!

And your comment just now reminded me of a stupid article I read earlier today. About how the neighbors all remarked on how isolated the family was, not talking to them. That the mom had once been friendly and outgoing, but more recently they were all withdrawn, "to themselves."

What was stupid about the article was the way it seemed to suggest something sinister about the whole family. WTF? Maybe the writer lives under a rock and doesn't know how families can be frightened to interact in the neighborhood and make friends if they, themselves, are scared that a family member is truly off the deep end. Even if they might be (in this case, I dunno) denying it to themselves. Just instinctively, you might be protective and not want the neighbors knocking on the door for the proverbial cup of sugar.

Boo Radley.

and one of Loughner's fave books was To Kill A Mockingbird.

welcome Kate.

*

Kate wrote:Hi there, everybody! Thank you, GuyWhoInventedFire, because you have inspired me to take the plunge and finally post here, after having signed up last Friday.

[I've been lurking here since forever, it seems, and it may sound too weird for words, but I finally signed up to participate as part of my self-assigned therapy "homework," -- to try to do one brave thing each day. I'm in therapy for PTSD, and the fact that this RI community has shown so much understanding for its members' struggles with inner pain encouraged me to sign up. I hope this isn't "too much information" for a first post, but I wanted to let y'all know that the general sensitivity found on this board, in spite of the occasional flash of all-too-human temper (in addition, natch, to the irresistible goals of "rigour" and "intuition"! ) prompted me to finally join.]

Now to the topic (and trying to do two more brave things, namely, to try out the bbcode with which I'm not familiar, and secondly, to disagree with our gracious host, Jeff -- yikes!!!) --

Also on reflection, even if the admin for Giffords' Youtube channel knew the ID of the suspect so early, it seems unlikely that he or she would both hastily subscribe to his page and then not login again since.

With no desire to make a bad first impression by using my first post to disagree, gulp!, I must say that comment makes no sense to me from my own experiences with different types of trauma.

From all accounts, Giffords' staff was a friendly, tight-knit group who worked well together. I'm going to assume that her Youtube admin staff member knew Giffords fairly well, and most likely admired her. It's also not unusual for a person with such a job to be out and about with a wireless laptop or an iphone or blackberry. Perhaps that staff member was even present at the shooting? Even if not, I know all too well the kind of shock that strikes when someone you care about very much has been attacked "just" by a mugger, much less shot in the head.

I can also imagine a scenario where law enforcement was very quickly asking staff about Loughner by name, had they ever heard of him? Has he made internet contact, etc. etc. You would think that law enforcement folks at that point had no way of knowing if this guy was acting alone, or if terror was on its way, so VERY quickly asking all staff about him by name makes sense.

I can also imagine an all-things-internet admin, in shock over the situation, could have inadvertantly hit the subscribe button.

I mean, I normally know what belongs in a refrigerator, but under emotional shock, I've been known to put my shoes in the refrigerator, while my mind was racing in panic or horror over a current tragic occurrence. Why would it be unlikely to hit the wrong button? And as to the idea of "forgetting" to go back and unsubscribe, again, I ask why does that seem so strange? Can you imagine the upset, the uproar, the upside-downness of the staff's undoubtedly crazy life these past few days? Just the mourning of a dead staffer (were there more who were "just" injured, other than Giffords, I mean?); imagine the nightmare of trying to carry on with some of the unavoidable work of the office while being interviewed by police and FBI, etc. Preparing to go to funerals. Making calls to other congressional colleagues or constituents to cancel events. Maybe a computer admin doesn't take part in other staffer activities like phone calls, but surely grief can cause serious cognitive problems.

I was greatly upset Saturday evening when I learned of the shooting. It was the first day in a while that I hadn't check out any news. And I was freaked out -- even "only" in second-hand fashion by an event circa 25 years ago -- the multiple shooting by Sylvia Seegrist at the Springfield Mall in Delaware County, Pennsylvania on Oct 30, 1985. Which came to mind, naturally. Because I lived only minutes from that mall, and that same afternoon began to go there with initial eagerness to buy the finishing touches for my Halloween costume -- only to inexplicably change my mind when I was almost there, turn the car around, and drive back home. I suddenly felt weirdly uncomfortable, and just went home. Was it precognition? Dunno. But I mightily freaked out when I found out I would have been on the scene when Seegrist marched through the mall, shooting many shoppers. I felt grateful, then guilty for feeling grateful, if you see what I mean. I was walking around in circles in my apartment that night, and I didn't even KNOW anyone who had been shot.

Imagine if people you knew and loved had been shot, injured grievously, killed -- couldn't you imagine doing the Youtube equivalent of putting your shoes in the refrigerator and completely forgetting about it? Especially if your entire daily "routine" has been completely upended in innumerable ways...

Well, I sure typed slowly enough that maybe somebody else has made a similar comment in this thread in the interim; if so, sorry for the inadvertant redundancy!

Now, to be brave and hit the submit button....

I agree about the above scenario. IF the subscription happened prior to the tragedy, we now know that JLL had tried to have a real life exchange with Giffords even as he apparently had slipped into an unhealthy fixation with her since 2007. He had apparently worked on her campaign briefly back then too, and then approached her later on with some oddball questions of which he didnt like the answer too(did this kick off his hatred of her?)

Also of note, I wonder if this kid was grooming himself to be an assassin, given he called himself by his full name in his online postings. Not sure how common it is to call oneself that.

I had not heard about that 1985 mall shooting, though I remember the 2007 Omaha mall massacre. Two days before the 9/11 event, nestled on the heels of the "summer of sharks" and the Chadra Levy case was a horrible mass shooting that happened at a Burns security office in Northern California committed by a guy named Joseph Ferguson(For some reason people with the Ferguson surname have been linked to a number of mass shootings) This had been the top news story around the country for two days until the morning of sept 11th. But my family had become good friends later on in a chance meeting with one of the survivors of that event; sadly the ptsd and amount of trauma suffered from experiencing an event like that tends to not fade over the years like one might expect. And such ptsd seems easily triggered.

I think it really stinks how Arnold really did away with a lot of the mental health in California(as well as help for the needy) due to budget cuts, as has happened in Arizona where this recent tragedy took place.
I saw a recent news story on how a lot of returning vets from Afghanistan and Iraq are lacking proper mental health treatment when they return(I sadly expect to hear a rise in vet related suicides, domestic violence and shootings)

Anyways welcome to the forum. And you're right, this is probably one of only a few "deep subject" forums Ive seen where people's past trauma is accepted and not questioned. It's also one that thankfully has a leftist/progressive slant with a heaping of intelligence and humor(so many of these sort of sites seem very right wing and heavy on the paranoia)

I wonder if he was on his mom's health insurance? There's a good angle to place blame. Lack of mental health parity. At 22 though, it's likely he was cut off from the mom's main plan, and I bet they weren't paying for some separate insurance for him.