rigorousintuition.ca

Guess I'll move my response to this thread, too. Consolidate. This way Jack can respond if he wants to, without breaking his self-imposed 'only posting in one election thread from now on' rule.

slomo » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:34 am wrote: I've been lurking on r/kotakuinaction (and similar places) for about a year and seen what motivates the folks there. I would characterize that place as largely consisting of the kind of people who would have voted for Obama in 2008, who were cautiously supportive of Sanders, but felt completely alienated by Clinton. You may dismiss them as simply misogynistic GamerGaters, but their views represent the shift in the national mood that led to the results of yesterday. And dismissing them is part of the point of this whole thread, isn't it?

I think some white males might feel marginalized as the structure of society becomes a more level playing-field. Misogynist gamergaters would fall into that category. Distributing power equally feels like robbery to them. Other white males are fine with it. I am.

I have a pretty wide video game social group that is wondering where the fuck I am recently. Classic/retro scene. I actually have the world record on qbert. (Not something I'm proud of, but it's true. I'm on trading cards, in the guinness book, and everything) I understand you're saying that the disaffected white male gamer represents a larger trend in society. I'm not so sure about that. Video gamers think they're much more important than they are in the scheme of things. All of them. Consumers in niche hobby echo chambers. When I step away from the internet, it's obvious to me.

There's lots of people on the left, not just white or male, that said 'no' to Clinton. Making it about 'white male identity' is ignoring that. So yes, I think it's probably a larger issue, people on the left of all kinds, rejecting the system.

slomo wrote:
Human behavior is largely based on emotion, and emotion is based on symbols and archetypes. This is particularly true of elections. So to discount the effect of symbols on the outcome of this election, simply because the symbols don't quite align with a complex and prosaic reality, is kind of, I don't know, either ignorant or disingenuous.


I think you're talking about consumer behavior. The consumer may even know they're being manipulated, and allow it. Human behavior is not as easily manipulated.

Ive had close to 200 people de-friend me on Facebook in the last day for stating the obvious. That Trump won because the DNC decided to put up a war corporatist instead of an angry populist who connected with the young and old leftists. Instead we got the angry populist on the right. In 2007 when I joined RI, I dreamt of the day the Bush neocons would be humiliated and destroyed. I just never imagined that anger of the war powers would help
elect what many see as a goofy 80s tv actor turned fascist. Or, least strongman with fascist-esque followers. Seeing my entire facebook/twitter/reddit media feed erupting in grief and anger doesn't make me feel good.
Yet it was this same social media matrix that insulated people from the fact half the country, white, felt left behind. Im a poor Asian gen x-er, but I am dismayed by the "white people must die" shit im seeing online.
Michael Moore called this a long time ago. Trump will win because half of America feels shit canned by the elite.

Do I regret being a loud anti Clinton voice? No. I never cared about white water, lewinski, vince foster, benghazi, emails, etc. But the moment Hillary Clinton lead the invasion of Libya, which lead to a lot of death,
then bragged about it and laughed....she lost me. I saw the same disconnect of human emotion I saw with Rumsfeld and Cheney.

That said, I register and understand the deep pain people like our own SLAD is feeling, and thousands of people Im seeing on social media.

Bernie was right in that its grassroots activism that will matter. And maybe the horror the US and West has wrought means America deserves to make The Purge movies and Idiocracy seem
like a documentary. Ive felt *exteremely* marginalized and on the outs with the hyper pc smug Huffington Post hipsters and yuppies....but I realize how much grief and fear
a lot of people are feeling. At this point I dont even have a theory as to whats going on or where things are headed. But its short sighted of people who didnt see angry revolution brewing

Ive always admired rabble rousers of the left. of Chisholm, Hampton, MLK, West, Chomsky, Vidal, Fonda, etc.

But gah-dammit, as a life long "progressive", the ultra politically correct sjw stuff mixed with the smugness of John Oliver and Huffpo/Daily Beast types was gnawing at my nerves. And I dont mean sjw as in
LGBT, African American students, etc fighting to highlight injustice or rights. I mean annoying "crybaby" tumblr types who live to annoy people and push the overton window toward pedantic insanity.

And I feel that this ultra PC hipster culture is part of the reason Trump surged. Along with Alex Jones, 4chan and other things people never thought would have relevance. Maybe Kek and meme chaos magick is real.
But we need a REAL new progressive party. The Democrat party can die for all I care

dada » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:41 am wrote:Guess I'll move my response to this thread, too. Consolidate. This way Jack can respond if he wants to, without breaking his self-imposed 'only posting in one election thread from now on' rule.

slomo » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:34 am wrote: I've been lurking on r/kotakuinaction (and similar places) for about a year and seen what motivates the folks there. I would characterize that place as largely consisting of the kind of people who would have voted for Obama in 2008, who were cautiously supportive of Sanders, but felt completely alienated by Clinton. You may dismiss them as simply misogynistic GamerGaters, but their views represent the shift in the national mood that led to the results of yesterday. And dismissing them is part of the point of this whole thread, isn't it?

I think some white males might feel marginalized as the structure of society becomes a more level playing-field. Misogynist gamergaters would fall into that category. Distributing power equally feels like robbery to them. Other white males are fine with it. I am.

I have a pretty wide video game social group that is wondering where the fuck I am recently. Classic/retro scene. I actually have the world record on qbert. (Not something I'm proud of, but it's true. I'm on trading cards, in the guinness book, and everything) I understand you're saying that the disaffected white male gamer represents a larger trend in society. I'm not so sure about that. Video gamers think they're much more important than they are in the scheme of things. All of them. Consumers in niche hobby echo chambers. When I step away from the internet, it's obvious to me.

There's lots of people on the left, not just white or male, that said 'no' to Clinton. Making it about 'white male identity' is ignoring that. So yes, I think it's probably a larger issue, people on the left of all kinds, rejecting the system.

slomo wrote:
Human behavior is largely based on emotion, and emotion is based on symbols and archetypes. This is particularly true of elections. So to discount the effect of symbols on the outcome of this election, simply because the symbols don't quite align with a complex and prosaic reality, is kind of, I don't know, either ignorant or disingenuous.


I think you're talking about consumer behavior. The consumer may even know they're being manipulated, and allow it. Human behavior is not as easily manipulated.

Off topic, but thats seriously cool. My name I chose here was a reference to my absolute love of 80's 8bit and 16bit arcade/game consoles. It's weird, as Trump reminds me of the real life end boss bad guy
from late 80s arcade games. Maybe they'll make a Bad Dudes 2. But it feels like were genuinely heading toward that cyberpunk dystopia 80s/early 90s predicted

There's lots of people on the left, not just white or male, that said 'no' to Clinton. Making it about 'white male identity' is ignoring that. So yes, I think it's probably a larger issue, people on the left of all kinds, rejecting the system.

Thanks for breaking your ban slomo, it's good to hear from you.



8-bit wrote....

And I feel that this ultra PC hipster culture is part of the reason Trump surged.

No doubt, fewer people are falling for the oh-so-smug righteousness of the 'we represent anti-racism and anti-sexism' crowd, when at the same time that same crowd supports the killing of brown skinned people, because why? We have a responsibility to protect?

The No-Borders segment of this crowd is illustrative of this hipster culture nonsense. Any non-indoctrinated person can see in a flash that No-Borders is the wet dream of Corporatists and bankers, but these folks seem convinced that unregulated immigration can be sold as the proper 'humanitarian' response rather than to stop trying to destroy sovereign countries, because you know, in the long run, no borders will be better for everyone.

Fuckin western exceptionalists are anti-racist and anti-sexist in form, but are both racist and sexist in substance.

Sounder » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:49 am wrote:

There's lots of people on the left, not just white or male, that said 'no' to Clinton. Making it about 'white male identity' is ignoring that. So yes, I think it's probably a larger issue, people on the left of all kinds, rejecting the system.

Thanks for breaking your ban slomo, it's good to hear from you.



8-bit wrote....

And I feel that this ultra PC hipster culture is part of the reason Trump surged.

No doubt, fewer people are falling for the oh-so-smug righteousness of the 'we represent anti-racism and anti-sexism' crowd, when at the same time that same crowd supports the killing of brown skinned people, because why? We have a responsibility to protect?

The No-Borders segment of this crowd is illustrative of this hipster culture nonsense. Any non-indoctrinated person can see in a flash that No-Borders is the wet dream of Corporatists and bankers, but these folks seem convinced that unregulated immigration can be sold as the proper 'humanitarian' response rather than to stop trying to destroy sovereign countries, because you know, in the long run, no borders will be better for everyone.

Fuckin western exceptionalists are anti-racist and anti-sexist in form, but are both racist and sexist in substance.

And here's the irony of it. The Neoliberal hawk policies of corporatist Bush-Obama-Clinton and their destabilization/regime change wars caused the mass refugee crisis that is "fueling the far right political rise in Europe". Hillary live on tv did not deny the Wikileaks hacks that exposed her international banking speech calling for open borders...she just said she was referring to "energy grids".

Many on the left seem to think that the mere mention of border security is crypto-fascist far rigth hysteria. But tens of thousands of innocent Mexican civilians were murdered by Los Zetas, Sinolas and other cartels(some Mexico gov't backed) in 2005-2012. Open borders didn't mean citizens fleeing this proto-ISIS insanity could escape unharmed. It meant cartel mules were going to exploit and take advantage of people trying to flee. We saw what Reagan, then Clinton did in the Americas. El Salvador, Honduras, School of Americas. We saw how Bank of America and other major US banks made billions off the Narco cartels. Then Fast and Furious.
Open borders is more complex than "rednecks want to seal the border".

I don't care how many "Friends" Ive lost in social media the last 24 hours, but I'll say it again. The hell are bombs dropped on innocent Arab civilians by a Democrat like Obama and Sec State Clinton any less
horrible than if Bush and Cheney are pressing the button? All the hipsters, millennials, etc can cry...talk about their "allies"...but they were hoping a "muscular" foreign policy lead by Hillary(but...shes a woman!)
would take over.

For people that want to hate the "Bernie Bros" or anti Hillary leftists as myself...
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2016 ... a-country/

Sounder:

...western exceptionalists are anti-racist and anti-sexist in form, but are both racist and sexist in substance.

This election has been a real eye-opener. We've seen justification for status quo continuation, racist demonisation of 'whites', sexist demonisation of 'white males' and the imposition of what can only be described as hate-thought blackmail directed at anyone who doesn't submit - by the self-styled 'intellectual left'. My, how things are changing. The left have morphed into the New Right and have been rejected by the majority. Extremists to be marginalised.

Nice to hear your thoughts, slomo.

.

Oh! The poor delicate white people, so unfairly insulted and cruelly alienated by the names the edumacated culture calls them -- who largely of course are a figment of your imaginations. The numbers speak.

After the massive efforts at voter suppression, mostly of black people, after the toppling of the Voting Rights Act and the passage of restrictive voter ID laws, after the closings of polling places in neighborhoods that vote Democratic, after the effects of mass incarceration and barring released convicts from voting, after the unknowable effects of machine-count manipulation, after the DNC and neoliberal sandbagging of progressive politics and the real existing left (the most common targets of unfair caricature, if anyone here), still Clinton is ahead in votes of Trump, still Trump is behind the Romney and McCain numbers, and that in a larger voting-age electorate than in 2008 or 2012.

There was no epic shift to Trump of the majority of those identifying as white, nor of any economic class. There was a great drop in support for the Democratic candidate as people stayed home or went (in modest numbers) to the third parties, but the Republican candidate still lost the vote and reached a new low of the total Republican vote since 2004 (I checked: Bush 62 million, Kerry 59). The Electoral College, the joke from 1787, completed the result in its arbitrary way. The numbers speak, and those of you who do not address them prefer to talk out your ass instead about how the key factor surely was too much liberal sarcasm against the majority of the whites, to whom you condescend worse than any Lena Dunham. They are the only group to whom you allow a legitimate essentialism. Don't call them names! It hurts them so! Don't make fun of the god those among them who are organized Christianists will now again push on the rest of us, and try to stick as a medical probe in every woman's vagina.

Everyone else has just got to get over their own identity issues, but not our precious (and largely fictional, a propaganda construct) sensitive white people! Kiss them, kiss them, wherever you meet!

The part in this article I agree with is the following:

"To call out voters for falling for such damagingly racist and sexist messages is viewed by politicians as a vote-killer and dangerously snobby by the media [and a select bunch of Trump apologists on RI] as though working-class people are precious toddlers who must be humoured and can’t possibly be held responsible for any flawed thinking. There is no doubt the white working classes in the west have suffered in recent decades, yet no other demographic that has endured similarly straitened circumstances is indulged in this way. For decades, American politicians have demonised the black working classes who suffered far worse structural inequalities and for far longer – and Trump continues to do so today.

And yet, as Stacey Pattoon wrote, only the white working classes are accorded this handwringing and insistent media empathy. No one is telling these voters to pull up their boot straps. The much-discussed American Dream is only considered “broken” when it’s the white working classes who are suffering. When it’s African-Americans, they are simply lazy and morally flawed.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ion-voters

That's you lot indulging them too, including MacC, whom I love and will nevertheless embrace and I hope break bread and drink beers with when next we meet again.

.

who largely of course are a figment of your imaginations.

Yep, the movement towards dismissal as 'delusional' is in full swing.
Fuck me, you're boring.

Show me the numbers of how Trump won more votes than Romney or McCain. Show them in the swing states, in the Rust Belt, among the masses who would not have turned to Trump if not for the mean mean media and the liberal insults to their precious, precious identities. You cannot, because the numbers say something opposite: fewer votes for Trump than Romney or McCain, and, in the country as a whole, fewer votes for Trump than for Clinton.

Jack, I like your writing and I do think your perspective is valuable. But basically you are demonstrating by example the very dynamic I speak of: wholesale dismissal of the concerns of the dispossessed ("poor delicate white people").

How do you think all those klansmen and identitarians figured out how to defuse their bombs yesterday morning? That's what I still can't figure.

8bitagent » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:19 am wrote:Ive had close to 200 people de-friend me on Facebook in the last day for stating the obvious. That Trump won because the DNC decided to put up a war corporatist instead of an angry populist who connected with the young and old leftists. Instead we got the angry populist on the right. In 2007 when I joined RI, I dreamt of the day the Bush neocons would be humiliated and destroyed. I just never imagined that anger of the war powers would help
elect what many see as a goofy 80s tv actor turned fascist. Or, least strongman with fascist-esque followers. Seeing my entire facebook/twitter/reddit media feed erupting in grief and anger doesn't make me feel good.
Yet it was this same social media matrix that insulated people from the fact half the country, white, felt left behind. Im a poor Asian gen x-er, but I am dismayed by the "white people must die" shit im seeing online.
Michael Moore called this a long time ago. Trump will win because half of America feels shit canned by the elite.

Do I regret being a loud anti Clinton voice? No. I never cared about white water, lewinski, vince foster, benghazi, emails, etc. But the moment Hillary Clinton lead the invasion of Libya, which lead to a lot of death,
then bragged about it and laughed....she lost me. I saw the same disconnect of human emotion I saw with Rumsfeld and Cheney.

That said, I register and understand the deep pain people like our own SLAD is feeling, and thousands of people Im seeing on social media.

thank you


the venom thrown at me by a couple of people here was a little overwhelming...like shaming me was going to make me leave after 11 years...

Yeah, if I'm reading between the lines correctly, the media and the press want to make this election about 'the white working class has spoken,' and people that live on the internet want to make it about, 'the white male has spoken,' but what really happened is the working class, on both the left and the right, rejected the system in their own way. That's what the numbers look like.

And I'm pleasantly surprised, I didn't think the left would do it. I guess I spend too much time on the internet as well. I have to say I'm feeling more hopeful now than I have in a long time. (I move fast, adapt quickly. Not worried about changing my mind when new info presents itself.)

Give the left some leaders they could get behind now, they could sweep the next elections. Or we could, you know, go even further than that. This is 2016, after all.

Give the left some leaders they could get behind now, they could sweep the next elections. Or we could, you know, go even further than that. This is 2016, after all.

A bit of environmental catastrophe we could really get our teeth into. Too true....

coffin_dodger » 10 Nov 2016 11:48 wrote:Sounder:

...western exceptionalists are anti-racist and anti-sexist in form, but are both racist and sexist in substance.

This election has been a real eye-opener. We've seen justification for status quo continuation, racist demonisation of 'whites', sexist demonisation of 'white males' and the imposition of what can only be described as hate-thought blackmail directed at anyone who doesn't submit - by the self-styled 'intellectual left'. My, how things are changing. The left have morphed into the New Right and have been rejected by the majority. Extremists to be marginalised.

Nice to hear your thoughts, slomo.

When was the last time white males over 40 voted for the lesser of the two evils in a national election in the USA? Sad to say because I am one of them, but we are a demonstrably politically retarded demographic.