rigorousintuition.ca

Harvey wrote:Okay. Is there any argument that it is good for us?

There are dozens of such arguments, many of them backed up by rigorous research. A review of the thread will provide you with any number, from discussions of how access to porn can actively inhibit certain aspects of sexual violence and crime, to the theraputic and healthful effects of mastubation, to the generally positive effects it is possible for porn to have when experienced in the context of monogamous relationships. It's too complex a question to simply shout from the rooftops, "Porn is GOOD FOR YOU!!" Pornography is a spectrum of products and activities, some of which are harmful, some of which are entirely natural and healthful. Something for everyone, as they say.

barracuda wrote:

Harvey wrote:Okay. Is there any argument that it is good for us?

There are dozens of such arguments, many of them backed up by rigorous research. A review of the thread will provide you with any number, from discussions of how access to porn can actively inhibit certain aspects of sexual violence and crime, to the theraputic and healthful effects of mastubation, to the generally positive effects it is possible for porn to have when experience in the context of monogamous relationships. It's too complex a question to simply shout from the rooftops, "Porn is GOOD FOR YOU!!" Pornography is a spectrum of products and activities, some of which are harmful, some of which are entirely natural and healthful. Something for everyone, as they say.

That was kind of my point. A strenuous opinion one way or the other is probably a sign of imbalance, but yeah, what thou wilt...

Harvey wrote:

Simulist wrote:

Harvey wrote:

Simulist wrote:but is all porn bad?

No. Because that's pretty silly.

Why?

It's an honest and simple question, not a trap, an accusation, or anything else. I'm looking for a good reasoned argument. That is all.

Because it's never been proven — or even convincingly demonstrated — that "all porn is bad for you" scientifically.

And until it is, such a claim seems "pretty silly."

Okay. Is there any argument that it is good for us?

Maybe. But why make it? Making such an argument seems about as pointless as trying to convince someone to like candy — either they like it, or they don't.

Unless they're trying to outlaw candy, anti-candy activists are free to dislike candy all they want, and make impassioned arguments about how bad it is for my teeth.

And those who already like candy (or porn) don't really need any convincing.

Simulist wrote:

Harvey wrote:

Simulist wrote:

Harvey wrote:

Simulist wrote:but is all porn bad?

No. Because that's pretty silly.

Why?

It's an honest and simple question, not a trap, an accusation, or anything else. I'm looking for a good reasoned argument. That is all.

Because it's never been proven — or even convincingly demonstrated — that "all porn is bad for you" scientifically.

And until it is, such a claim seems "pretty silly."

Okay. Is there any argument that it is good for us?

Maybe. But why make it? Making such an argument seems about as pointless as trying to convince someone to like candy — either they like it, or they don't.

Unless they're trying to outlaw candy, anti-candy activists are free to dislike candy all they want, and make impassioned arguments about how bad it is for my teeth.

And those who already like candy (or porn) don't really need any convincing.

Yup.

Sorry, wasn't picking on you but I knew you'd encapsulate better than I could.

Harvey wrote:

Simulist wrote:but is all porn bad?

No. Because that's pretty silly.

Why?

It's an honest and simple question, not a trap, an accusation, or anything else. I'm looking for a good reasoned argument. That is all.

I'd be happy to provide you with one, but I'm not sure I can address the question without asking you one first:

Why would all porn be bad for people?

That's also an honest and simple question, not a trap, accusation, or anything else. However, I'm not even looking for anything as a good reasoned argument, necessarily. I just want to know on what premise you think it might be supposed all to be bad so that I can consider your inquiry on the terms it was made.

Harvey wrote:Okay. Is there any argument that it is good for us?

Insofar as the safe, non-violent and legal exercise of sexual desire that doesn't harm anyone is good for both one's physical and mental health and the excessive repression of same is bad for them, I'd say that if an argument can't be made that pornography in and of itself is categorically unsafe, violent, illegal or harmful to someone, then by default it is one part of a more complex whole that is good for us.

The production of some pornography involves unsafe, violent, criminal and harmful acts. Tolerating, endorsing, minimizing or overlooking such acts is bad for us, and (obviously) very bad -- sometimes lethal -- for their victims.

I would therefore argue that it's imperative (as well as good for us) to be as sensitive and as attentive to those considerations as it's reasonably possible to be.

More in a moment.

Nobody here seems to have any issue with masturbation, but porn is surely just an optional extra for that activity - wanking wont stop if porn vanishes, and theres error in conflating the two.

compared2what? wrote:..I'd say that if an argument can't be made that pornography in and of itself is categorically unsafe, violent, illegal or harmful to someone, then by default it is one part of a more complex whole that is good for us. ..

Hiya c2w, fab to read you again.
If we're talking about modern commercial 'mainstream' porn, then yes i'd say it is harmful to someoneS, namely both the producers (my mere opinion, no experience) and the consumers (1st hand).

Porn embodies and illustrates some really ugly power relationships - women are usually cast in gross dehumanising sterotypes, money is frequently used to rationalise/escape responsibility ('she'd do anything for $' = economic violence), and nowhere is there any respect for vulnerability or intimacy or really any truely positive emotions apart from lust.

Consuming/seeing-thinking-imagining such material inevitably colours the experience of the consumer - railroads it along power-abuse tracks, feeding that ugly side that is in us all. I have no problem with media portraying bodies or sexual acts of any kind among consenting adults - except when that media overwhelmingly glorifies violence of some kind or another, which i think most porn does.

Hmm. What about violent fantasies, and just what do we mean by "violent"? Are all fantasies that can be construed as violent "bad"? And what about depicting some of them in porn? Can depicting violent fantasies sometimes be "good" or is this always "bad"? And in a safe, sane, and consensual context where all adult partners not only consent, but also want to act out these fantasies?

I suppose that arguments can be made that such depictions fuel aggressive tendencies; similarly, I think arguments can be made that repressing depictions of violent fantasies (and the violent fantasies themselves) may actually cause them to be acted out in unpredictable ways and with sometimes unfortunate results.

Or maybe the whole "good/bad" dichotomy — especially where fantasy is concerned — can be a too-tight straight-jacket.

(Let the flaming begin! )

Deleted due to superfluity, stupidity and purposelessness.

Apologies to those who read it for having posted substituted instead.

I'm a fool.

Simulist wrote:Hmm. What about violent fantasies, and just what do we mean by "violent"? Are all fantasies that can be construed as violent "bad"? And what about depicting some of them in porn? Can depicting violent fantasies sometimes be "good" or is this always "bad"? And in a safe, sane, and consensual context where all adult partners not only consent, but also want to act out these fantasies?

I suppose that arguments can be made that such depictions fuel aggressive tendencies; similarly, I think arguments can be made that repressing depictions of violent fantasies (and the violent fantasies themselves) may actually cause them to be acted out in unpredictable ways and with sometimes unfortunate results.

Or maybe the whole "good/bad" dichotomy — especially where fantasy is concerned — can be a too-tight straight-jacket.

(Let the flaming begin! )

I think those questions fall into the same general category to which blanc referred as "borderline material," as do titles and search terms such as "hot teen sex" or "horny baby-sitting cheerleader" or whatever.

I have some thoughts about that, but it's inherently kind of a gray area, at best, outside of the obvious bright-line boundaries.

Maybe I will/should now shut up, though.

ON EDIT: Sorry, wintler, I didn't see your post, to which a reply will be forthcoming.

I just want to say very explicitly and very emphatically that I hear and validate blanc's experience and that of other survivors here.
___________

I hope and trust that goes for everybody. But, fwiw, speaking only for myself:

I can easily understand that a lot of things could be said about this subject that wouldn't sound like a denial of that experience to someone who hadn't lived through it, and reasonably so, but that would nevertheless sound like nothing but exactly that to someone who had, and reasonably so. Because communication isn't always easy, and that's just that, even when it's about something that's less clearly emotionally fraught than this topic.

Anyway. I'm trying to be sensitive, but I'm a bumbling fool like anybody else. So feedback of a corrective nature is welcome, even if (as needs-must-be) it's also harsh. Very welcome.

Truly.

wintler2 wrote:Nobody here seems to have any issue with masturbation, but porn is surely just an optional extra for that activity - wanking wont stop if porn vanishes, and theres error in conflating the two.

I agree. I don't think I did conflate them, since I'm sure that I did make a number of distinctions between how common one versus the other was to the regular sexual experience of men.

But in the event that didn't get through:

Don't conflate masturbation and porn. They are not one, but rather two.

True, but they kind of go together.

compared2what? wrote:..
But in the event that didn't get through:
Don't conflate masturbation and porn. They are not one, but rather two.

Its cool, i wasn't directing that at you or anyone really, sorry if that wasn't clear.

barracuda wrote:True, but they kind of go together. [love & marriage]

Since i see marriage as a facet of human culture that has been largely co-opted by the powerful to further their own interests, thats a great analogy for masturbation & porn.

Simulist wrote:

freemason9 wrote:(1) Do not kill.
(2) Do not steal.
(3) Do not lie.
(4) Do not misuse sex (misuse includes exploitation).
(5) Do not consume intoxicants.

Looks like Jehovah had a half-off sale on commandments.

Let me make this more palatable for you, Simulist: These are Buddhist precepts, and are not derived from any Judeo-Christian faith. Sorry.

I know that pornography is a sensitive subject for those that consume it; however, I believe it is inarguable that the pornography industry has caused--and continues to cause--great suffering among women.