rigorousintuition.ca

...


Stephen Morgan:

I have no strong opinions on Bosnia business, apart from the recent political shilly-shallying over the preseidency of their football association, which has much larger international ramifications than the possibility that their pre-historic inhabitants used proto-concrete to build, or significantly re-shape, large hills. So I reserve judgement on that, while coming down on the anti-FIFA side of the football thingy.

Yeah, Bosnia...proto-concrete... Slobodan Milošević springs/


futball, as the other 99% of the world insist on calling it...

edited for spellchick


...

American Dream wrote:Canadian_watcher wrote:

ow, I grant you this: I have not checked to see whether or not Michael Cremo has ever once been in the same room as someone who might believe in things that could possibly be interpreted as being antisemitic. Maybe he has. Maybe he's a cross-dresser. Maybe he used to beat his girlfriends. I don't know.

I just can not imagine you taking such a droll and dismissive tone towards concerns about misogyny in someone's discourse, as say you have taken with Icke.

read it again. I made it a little easier to spot the answer.

Look, you've got a HUGE bee in your bonnet about people connected to antisemitism. I'm going to really fucking bold and say flat out that I don't view antisemitism as any worse than sexism, other racism, ageism, homophobia, faithism (just made that one up.. I don't know what to call people who hate on people of faith)..

Please drop it. I've made myself crystal clear on this 3,000 times.

It's the uniqueness of "anti-semitism" in that the popularity of "Jewish conspiracy theory" does immeasurable harm to the cause of conspiracy fact, as it were.

But, people, chill a little. Just a notch.

IanEye wrote:"The name's Wins, Hugh Manatee Wins..."

But wait! It gets better...

furthur reference: Into The Void

.

Yes, indeed. I'm wondering if part of what triggered Alex's rant is having seen, heard, learned about ENTER THE VOID, which I just saw for the first time a week or so ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enter_the_Void

Canadian_watcher wrote:

I don't view antisemitism as any worse than sexism, other racism, ageism, homophobia, faithism (just made that one up..

I'm thinking of your track record here with those who say anti-feminist things vs. how you react to those who say anti-semitic things. You pretty much give David Icke a free pass in that regard don't you?

American Dream wrote:Canadian_watcher wrote:

I don't view antisemitism as any worse than sexism, other racism, ageism, homophobia, faithism (just made that one up..

I'm thinking of your track record here with those who say anti-feminist things vs. how you react to those who say anti-semitic things. You pretty much give David Icke a free pass in that regard don't you?

A_D (trying to listen hard)
When I read that, I felt you were really troubled that C_W was not showing the same degree of care and intention and empathy around anti-semitism as she does around feminism, in particular around some of the imformation that David Icke wrote about, and this upset you?

Searcher08 wrote:

A_D (trying to listen hard)
When I read that, I felt you were really troubled that C_W was not showing the same degree of care and intention and empathy around anti-semitism as she does around feminism, in particular around some of the imformation that David Icke wrote about, and this upset you?

Yes- you are getting it exactly right.

I'm troubled by David Icke for more reasons than that- am concerned about what it does to the credibility of extreme abuse survivors to associate them with (presumed) fourth dimensional shapeshifters, am concerned about Reptilian Theory in general- don't think it is backed up by good evidence. I think narratives about ancient and/or monolithic world conspiracies always deserve backing up with really good evidence and I never have seen that, either.

There's more I could say but I'll let it go at that...

Canadian_watcher wrote: I don't view antisemitism as any worse than sexism, other racism, ageism, homophobia, faithism (just made that one up.. I don't know what to call people who hate on people of faith).

Racism (of which anti-Semitism is a variant), sexism and homophobia are radically different, in that they are targeted at inalienable qualities of the person. People are born into a sex (with extremely few exceptions). They are born into a "race"; although race itself is a construct, you don't get a choice about your assignment to your race in a given culture, unless you happen to be among the minority who by virtue of ambiguous features (as defined in that culture) have the opportunity to "pass." Being Jewish shares the same quality; non-Jews can convert and become Jewish, but if you're born into a Jewish family and become an atheist you're still Jewish to everyone else; and the fact is that Jews also constitute an ethnicity for most practical purposes.

Sexual orientation is either born or hardwired so early by an arbitrary, unknowable and unpredictable process that it is equivalent to being "born this way"; notwithstanding that ambiguity and experimentation in all loving directions should also be understood as fundamental rights.

Ageism (and I think specifically of the tendency of the old to beat down the young, although there is also that of the younger to abandon the older once they're infirm) may, unfortunately, be an ineradicable part of the human condition, not so much "natural" to individual humans as something that inevitably arises as one generation makes the next and succeeds the last; but I do abhor it and it, too, refers to biological qualities. You don't ever get to choose your age in years, though you may try to disguise it.

Compared to the above, there is a reason why you had to make up the term "faithism," because what one believes, asserts, proselytizes and/or practices as ritual is demonstrably not born and can and usually does change in the course of one's life. In fact, you have even described the process above for yourself. There is also a reason why you didn't use the common term: religious intolerance, because that's commonly understood as something members of religions do as well as have done to them.

Not to repeat that exchange we had on the "Facts" thread, but I'd like you to point to an example where people who are not believers in one of the theistic religions are enforcing their beliefs on theists. And I mean enforcing, meaning: imposing by law and force. That does not include trash talk, emotions, or perceptions that one is unfairly disliked or is besieged or being outnumbered by groups who do not share the same beliefs.

Because you know very well there are many examples of theists enforcing their beliefs through law and force on those who don't share their particular religion, including on other theists. Leaving the theocracies aside, one example in the US is the restrictions on abortion in many jurisdictions.

.

I checked out the Protocols stuff, and have to say that was pretty sloppy research on Icke's part. I found the Wikipedia entry very informative and my intuition is that there is something really useful to learn from the 'Protocols' - not in terms of their content, but in terms of the process of creation and 'memetic engineering' .

I'm going to go and register on Ickes forum and see what the vibe is there - BTW I was very surprised at the size of it - thought the site wasnt as big as it is
Threads: 158,794, Posts: 2,925,994, Members: 59,172
Currently Active Users: 2297 (218 members and 2079 (!) guests)

JackRiddler wrote:but I'd like you to point to an example where people who are not believers in one of the theistic religions are enforcing their beliefs on theists. And I mean enforcing, meaning: imposing by law and force. That does not include trash talk, emotions, or perceptions that one is unfairly disliked or is besieged or being outnumbered by groups who do not share the same beliefs.

Immediately springing to mind:

The country of France from just after the Revolution until today - with a couple of detours backward and forward over the years.

edit: ahh what the heck, I'll add more:

Madalyn Murray O'Hair:

A candid interview with Madalyn Murray, who wants to tax churches and to remove prayer, the Bible, and God from the public consciousness.

... She is a spearhead of the fight against public school prayer and it was her suit, "Murray vs.Curlett," that brought the controversial Supreme Court decision outlawing official prayer ceremonies in public schools--and made the name of Murray anathema to millions of Americans.

But she's not a political leader. Here are some more:

Mao Zedong
Vladimir Lenin
Pol Pot nevermind.. I'm not clear enough on this history to make this statement.

JackRiddler wrote:.

Bah, I insist on reposting and expanding my tribute to "They Live," which went lost at the bottom of Page 11 in this crazy thread. It was in response to this:

666 wrote:Why is John Carpenter's They Live scenario instantly dismissed as paranoid nuttery?

Au contraire.

We should honor the scenario in "They Live" as the director's clearly intended metaphor for class society, for how the spiritual cannibalism of man subduing man turns the winners into inhuman creatures. The hidden messages in the ads and on the money could not be more explicit as bitter rejections of our most hallowed social institutions: the nuclear family, consumerism and patriotism. John Carpenter is an intellectual hooligan.

OBEY. CONFORM. MARRY AND REPRODUCE. CONSUME. WATCH TELEVISION. SLEEP. NO INDEPENDENT THOUGHT. THIS IS YOUR GOD.

Where did the last slogan appear, do you remember? Hint: It was not on a portrait of Our Reptile Masters. It was on the Dollar Bill. Could the message be more obvious?

"They Live" is a high point of the too often disregarded art of caricature.

The 10-minute kayfabe alley brawl was also a spectacular in fan service. Kudos to Mr. Keith and Mr. Piper. Also to the director for the absurd sequence of shots with which the ending was left open.

.

It should be honored only in metaphor?

I agree with Jack.

The reason people don't see saying nasty things about Jews in the same light as putting down Christians/Christianity is probably due to the fact Christianity isn't particularly tied to a singular group.
People can say all they want about "Jewish" not being an ethnic makeup, but most people consider it to be. Consider how many atheist Jews who could give a crap about the faith have been attacked for being, well Jewish.

In a way I can see how people attacking Muslims by words are in a way demeaning Middle Easterners and North Africans, or people of Arabic/Persian/etc heritage given Islam is more specific to a geographic location. But bottom line harsh words against Judaism has long been tied to a literal hate and dismissal of the people and not just the religion.

8bitagent wrote:I agree with Jack.

The reason people don't see saying nasty things about Jews in the same light as putting down Christians/Christianity is probably due to the fact Christianity isn't particularly tied to a singular group.

Christianity is certainly tied to a singular group: Christians.

But I'm not talking about Christianity. I'm talking about anyone who says they have faith - even if that faith isn't tied to a religion. You cannot tell me that there isn't a prejudice, especially noticeable here on this board but prevalent in the "left" almost everywhere, against people who are spiritual.

Canadian_watcher wrote:

8bitagent wrote:I agree with Jack.

The reason people don't see saying nasty things about Jews in the same light as putting down Christians/Christianity is probably due to the fact Christianity isn't particularly tied to a singular group.

Christianity is certainly tied to a singular group: Christians.

But I'm not talking about Christianity. I'm talking about anyone who says they have faith - even if that faith isn't tied to a religion. You cannot tell me that there isn't a prejudice, especially noticeable here on this board but prevalent in the "left" almost everywhere, against people who are spiritual.

Oh of course...while all my Christian friends are more or less gay loving liberals...a lot of leftist friends of mine have a virtulent hate and mistrust of any Christians or religious people in general