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The trouble is many scientists utterly lack a moral compass and will do anything in the name of "science". They serve "knowledge" and nothing else.

Which really makes them not so different than, say, Mengele.

Some things are best left alone. This may or may not be one of them.

Plenty of literature and movies that illustrate this. "The Fly". "The Island of Dr Moreau". Jurassic Park".

But yeah let's literally fuck around with the very nature of our existence and see what happens.

You're describing comic book villains.

I'd like CERN a lot more if they were actually breeding dinosaurs. I am pro-dinosaur and I think John Hammond got a bad rap :p

In reality, I'm trying to think of some scientific breakthroughs that were better off never discovered . . . atomic energy? GMOs? Thank god for velcro, though . . .

Nordic » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:54 pm wrote:The trouble is many scientists utterly lack a moral compass and will do anything in the name of "science". They serve "knowledge" and nothing else.

While I might agree that it is probable that "scientists" are as susceptible as any other subset of the population to being immoral/amoral in the service of what they consider a higher goal, in the case of sceintists the advancement of knowledge, and therefore your statement is to some indeterminate degree or another correct, nonetheless it seems to me you are painting with an overbroad brush. "Scientists" are no more morally challenged than anyone else. Do you actually know a lot of scientists? Do you have some support for your argument other than works of fiction. I mean, Frankenstein, is a wonderful work of fiction that points to a real problem with the search for scientific truth, but it hardly supports your broad assertions.

Which really makes them not so different than, say, Mengele.

Eh, no.

But yeah let's literally fuck around with the very nature of our existence and see what happens.

What evidence do you have that CERN scientists are "literally fuck(ing) around with the very nature of our existence"?

Nordic » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:54 pm wrote:The trouble is many scientists utterly lack a moral compass and will do anything in the name of "science". They serve "knowledge" and nothing else.

Which really makes them not so different than, say, Mengele.

Some things are best left alone. This may or may not be one of them.

Plenty of literature and movies that illustrate this. "The Fly". "The Island of Dr Moreau". Jurassic Park".

But yeah let's literally fuck around with the very nature of our existence and see what happens.

Scientism, making science/technology your god ...the excessive belief in the power of scientific knowledge and techniques that ensures humanity serves it instead of the other way around.

I believe the Nazis really won. Operation paperclip is just the tip of a very dark iceberg. The powerful believe the world is one giant lab, and we, their guinea pigs, so, in my humble opinion, trusting a huge scientific operation like CERN, even without the occult trappings on display for everyone to see, is foolish.

There is not a day that goes by that I don't hear a medical horror story. I don't know one single family that doesn't have a horrific medical story to tell. Usually something I never heard of or a situation that boggles my mind. Why is that? Why are more diseases/viruses/toxic insects/toxic air/toxic water, etc., manifesting? What's the point of all of this science and technology if it only prolongs our misery and pollutes our world?

Three people I know, all in their 50s, were diagnosed with cancer and died, in one case, a week later, another, one month later (after one chemo treatment), and another, two months later (don't know if she had chemo). Apparently, that's not unusual according to the funeral director that buried my father.

I know two people (one woman in her 40s's and one in her 60s) diagnosed with 4th stage lymphoma after taking Humira, a biologic for psoriasis. Just google drugs that cause cancer.

I know a mother of three, in her 30s, who was diagnosed with two types of cancer, yet because she's on Medicaid, she can't get the operation she needs because no surgeon in her state will perform the operation. I thought Medicaid was a federal program...apparently not. Her "doctor" (really a physician's assistant), the only "doctor" she ever saw, missed all of the signs for a year...told her she was imagining things. Where are all of the doctors? Physician's assistants/nurse practitioners have taken over yet we're paying the same...more!.

I know a teenager who overcame childhood cancer (years of suffering through chemo) just to get another type of cancer several years later that is making her life unbearable. Once again, this is not unusual according to my friend who works as a nurse in a children's hospital. More kids than ever before are getting cancer, BUT more are living through it...just to get it again?

I have Morgellons. My sister has Lyme disease and my other sister was diagnosed with childhood Diabetes type 1 in her 40s. We have no history of diabetes in our family.

I could go on and on but you get the idea.

Oh, and one story with a happy ending. I know a woman in her 20s who was diagnosed with cancer while she was pregnant. Two doctors gave her a choice, the baby or her life. She couldn't have both. So she consulted a naturopath and she's cancer-free and her child is a year old.

Sorry for going off on a tangent, but the world seems to get less and less human friendly everyday and much of it thanks to scientific/medical "progress" that's supposed to make life easier, better, more stress-free...People are sicker and more stressed out than ever before!

OP ED » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:34 am wrote:You're describing comic book villains.

he's describing people with big tax money and guards and big expensiive also taxpayer paid for toys with according to you no responsibility to anybody for anything. and you are defending them

What evidence do you have that CERN scientists are "literally fuck(ing) around with the very nature of our existence"?

announcements in state media. god particle. closing in.

Elihu » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:19 am wrote:

What evidence do you have that CERN scientists are "literally fuck(ing) around with the very nature of our existence"?

announcements in state media. god particle. closing in.

1) Announcements in state media? Really? Since when do you trust anything published in state media?

2) Even if we accept announcements in state media wrt the search for the Higgs boson as factual, how is that evidence that CERN scientists are "literally fuck(ing) around with the very nature of our existence"? I mean, read the wikipedia article on the Higgs boson and tell me it's not all gibberish to you. Are you a particle physicist?

I don't think it is inconceivable that experiments at CERN could have real world consequences. Certainly the possibility of the LHC producing planet swallowing black holes is an RI worthy subject. But impugning a goodly percentage ("many scientists") of scientists as being not so different as Mengele is an overreach at best.

how is that evidence that CERN scientists are "literally fuck(ing) around with the very nature of our existence"?......I mean, read the wikipedia article on the Higgs boson and tell me it's not all gibberish to you. Are you a particle physicist?

I don't think it is inconceivable that experiments at CERN could have real world consequences.

is it worth it? i can't keep being made mad by fellow taxpayers and civil servants who won't see that an obvious bad deal needs to be turned away from.

Odell Beckham Jr came right out and said this war thing is okay.

project willow speculated i think correctly, about hillary and all the high candidates for that matter, having submitted to some cybernetic integration and message control assistance of some kind. i couldn't hate her in that video clip. colattas have made me do the same thing. the mobing band of harpies, jokingly, was what had me freaked out. they loved her more after the fit.

she can be kept going a long time.

CERN is having real world consequences. it is making poor people more and more broke at every level, down down down. how much longer do you want to put up with it?

I guess it comes down to whether we believe individual scientists are in charge or the State is. At an individuals level, whether it's the knowledge-seeking ego or the power seeking id that's running the show. And maybe this is a false dichotomy & answers itself? Behind every (successful) scientist is the State, behind every ego is Id.

Science just means knowledge, and knowledge is power (so they say), but power for what, to do what? In late middle age I am coming to realize that knowledge itself is the most useless thing there is when it comes to becoming whole/free from delusion/fully content with life. It creates the illusion that we can build up information-credits to attain wisdom, no different finally than the idea that wealth = happiness. But wisdom & happiness seem to be innate to the organism, not externally bestowed.

Science is the bid for power & control institutionalized, just like government, military, entertainment, & everything else. Of course it provides some lifestyle benefits for the ego/masses (the mass-ego), just as the State has worked hard to facilitate the individual's pursuit of happiness, i.e., the right to indulge whatever whim it wants and ignore the fact that this right is just the latest, technologically sophisticated form of enslavement.

The CERN enactment, by playing into the "Christian" fears about Science, big Ssss (Thou Shalt Not Know), was a succinct summation of Science as the Satanic Bid for Power by which Dark Forces take control of Innocence and sacrifice it to their ends.

A ritual of sacrificing an innocent in Girardian terms is the opposite of scapegoating and hence profoundly socially destabilizing, which is probably why these things usually happen in secret (besides being crimes and all). In Hollywood movies, pretty much the only time an innocent is killed is as a way to kick-start the engine of the Hero's Revenge. CERN is about using violence to crack open matter (mater/mother/the womb). It's geared towards destabilization, whatever the end may be, these are the means & the means usually tell us more about the true end than any official rationale does (the id moves the ego, not the other way around).

What is the professed end of CERN anyway? I mean how are they presenting their goals as being a way to Make the World a Better Place, since this is the only reason Science or any other institution (or ego) ever gives for its agendas?

Elihu » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:14 am wrote:CERN is having real world consequences. it is making poor people more and more broke at every level, down down down. how much longer do you want to put up with it?

I BELIEVE* that the scientific research being conducted at CERN is likely advancing human knowledge in ways that are not possible by any other means. Note that I believe this to be in all probability true. I cannot know for certain, just as I cannot know for certain whether the moon is made of cheese or not.

I am all for advancing human knowledge, dangerous as it may seem and dangerous as it almost always is. But I can think of taxpayer ripoffs much more demonstrably awful and harmful:

1) US "defense" department.
2) Massive too-big-to-fail bank bailouts.
3) Fossil fuel subsidies.
4) Tax evasion via offshoring profits.
5) Radically upside down tax codes.

All of which is not to say that there might not be corruption and misuse of funds at CERN, but I think I would direct my suspicions and ire at the more obvious targets.

brainpanhandler wrote:

Elihu » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:14 am wrote:CERN is having real world consequences. it is making poor people more and more broke at every level, down down down. how much longer do you want to put up with it?

I BELIEVE* that the scientific research being conducted at CERN is likely advancing human knowledge in ways that are not possible by any other means. Note that I believe this to be in all probability true. I cannot know for certain, just as I cannot know for certain whether the moon is made of cheese or not.

I am all for advancing human knowledge, dangerous as it may seem and dangerous as it almost always is. But I can think of taxpayer ripoffs much more demonstrably awful and harmful:

1) US "defense" department.
2) Massive too-big-to-fail bank bailouts.
3) Fossil fuel subsidies.
4) Tax evasion via offshoring profits.
5) Radically upside down tax codes.

All of which is not to say that there might not be corruption and misuse of funds at CERN, but I think I would direct my suspicions and ire at the more obvious targets.

our conversations are coming more and more into harmony. they all rise and fall together friend

Really? Since when do you trust anything published in state media?

that's crazy on so many levels

a: when it is convenient

I won't bore you with a line by line response, but maybe you should try your hand at poetry:

guruilla » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:11 pm wrote:
The CERN enactment, by playing into the "Christian" fears about Science, big Ssss (Thou Shalt Not Know), was a succinct summation of Science as the Satanic Bid for Power by which Dark Forces take control of Innocence and sacrifice it to their ends.

CERN is about using violence to crack open matter (mater/mother/the womb). It's geared towards destabilization...

What is the professed end of CERN anyway?

I posted this on the fourth page of this thread:

brainpanhandler » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:13 pm wrote:
Purpose
Physicists hope that the LHC will help answer some of the fundamental open questions in physics, concerning the basic laws governing the interactions and forces among the elementary objects, the deep structure of space and time, and in particular the interrelation between quantum mechanics and general relativity, where current theories and knowledge are unclear or break down altogether. Data is also needed from high-energy particle experiments to suggest which versions of current scientific models are more likely to be correct – in particular to choose between the Standard Model and Higgsless models and to validate their predictions and allow further theoretical development. Many theorists expect new physics beyond the Standard Model to emerge at the TeV energy level, as the Standard Model appears to be unsatisfactory. Issues possibly to be explored by LHC collisions include:[16][17]
• Are the masses of elementary particles actually generated by the Higgs mechanism via electroweak symmetry breaking?[18] It was expected that the collider experiments will either demonstrate or rule out the existence of the elusive Higgs boson, thereby allowing physicists to consider whether the Standard Model or its Higgsless alternatives are more likely to be correct.[19][20][21] The experiments found a particle that appears to be the Higgs boson, strong evidence that the Standard Model has the correct mechanism of giving mass to the elementary particles.
• Is supersymmetry, an extension of the Standard Model and Poincaré symmetry, realized in nature, implying that all known particles have supersymmetric partners?[22][23][24]
• Are there extra dimensions,[25] as predicted by various models based on string theory, and can we detect them?[26]
• What is the nature of the dark matter that appears to account for 27% of the mass-energy of the universe?
Other open questions that may be explored using high-energy particle collisions:
• It is already known that electromagnetism and the weak nuclear force are different manifestations of a single force called the electroweak force. The LHC may clarify whether the electroweak force and the strong nuclear force are similarly just different manifestations of one universal unified force, as predicted by various Grand Unification Theories.
• Why is the fourth fundamental force (gravity) so many orders of magnitude weaker than the other three fundamental forces? See also Hierarchy problem.
• Are there additional sources of quark flavour mixing, beyond those already present within the Standard Model?
• Why are there apparent violations of the symmetry between matter and antimatter? See also CP violation.
• What are the nature and properties of quark–gluon plasma, thought to have existed in the early universe and in certain compact and strange astronomical objects today? This will be investigated by heavy ion collisions, mainly in ALICE, but also in CMS, ATLAS and LHCb. First observed in 2010, findings published in 2012 confirmed the phenomenon of jet quenching in heavy-ion collisions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Had ... er#Purpose

Destabilization? Yes, I suppose (my knowledge of such matters is so elementary that it might be more correct to say a higher state of stabilization); but also in a less literal sense. The Standard Model, as suggested by it's name, predominates over its Higgs-less alternatives. New knowledge frequently derives from the destruction/destabilization of the current paradigm.

I mean how are they presenting their goals as being a way to Make the World a Better Place

Taking NASA as a model, we can speculate that many of the ways that the research at CERN will result in making the world a better place will be spinoffs and not directly intended results.

...since this is the only reason Science or any other institution (or ego) ever gives for its agendas?

This is too open ended to be amenable to any sort of answer. I mean Cheney's idea of a better place is different than mine.