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dbcooper41 wrote:

....where in the ranks of officialdom did that come from? There were shots fired outside the building, since he shot his way into it.

shooting his way in would have sent bullets in the opposite direction.
if you look at the pic of her car in the parking lot it is hard to imagine it being hit from inside.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but it seemed to me like he he didn't actually know where her car was parked and was just using that picture to illustrate a hypothetical.

Partly because he says:

Now with your knowledge of the angle her car would have been parked at in relation to the shooter, how is it possible for a bullet hole to penetrate the side of her car at the trajectory shown above? Was there no car beside her?

And partly because he has two (possible) cars circled in that picture.

but, even if it was, what are the odds of her car, and her, being hit in the same attack?

Without knowing where the car was at all or having more than a very general and possibly faulty idea of what the shooter's movements were, there's no way to calculate them.

has anyone seen any other cars with bullet holes?

I haven't. But I assume that whether or not to share stuff like that is up to the families of the victims, most of whom aren't speaking to the media. So the public record of things with bullet holes in them is probably incomplete, right at the moment..

Might be interesting to find put more about what this woman did while in the service. Also to find out if it's even possible that her car got shot up from inside the building.

I've been working on the possibility of a black ops group perpetrating a bunch of these mass shootings. From our knowledge of MKULTRA we have MKOFTEN, for example, and this quote from Wikipedia page: 'According to author Gordon Thomas' 2007 book, Secrets and Lies, the CIA's Operation Often was also initiated by the chief of the CIA's Technical Services Branch, Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, to "explore the world of black magic" and "harness the forces of darkness and challenge the concept that the inner reaches of the mind are beyond reach". As part of Operation Often, Dr. Gottlieb and other CIA employees visited with and recruited fortune-tellers, palm-readers, clairvoyants, astrologists, mediums, psychics, specialists in demonology, witches and warlocks, Satanists, other occult practitioners, and more.' Plus in 1977 Senate hearings, and in the list of subprojects at http://all.net/journal/deception/MKULTR ... ltra.shtml, we hear talk of some very, very strange things. Many have intimated that such work never ceased, and even the limited hangout, like Abu Ghraib, is scary enough. Parallel, we have the Phoenix Program and Operation Condor, for example, where CIA is deeply involved in mass murder of civilians, at least in other countries. Then, even more disturbing, are the Brabant massacres, which most closely approach more recent US and European school shootings, but without patsies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabant_killers. Goes on to talk about motives, 'The Brabant killers were mentioned as linked to the neo-Nazi organization Westland New Post (WNP), which aimed to destabilize Belgian society and provoke civil unrest in order "to establish a government lead by ultra-conservatives of the Parti Social-Chrétien".' And so on into pink ballets, Dutroux connections and etc.

I'm just trying to say that within the purview of the funding of waived USAPS, buried deep enough, and well inside the private sector for even more protection, (but, no doubt, with our tax dollars) we have all the precedents for inclusions of the occult, brainwashing of patsies, and savage black ops militants who would not hesitate to kill schoolchildren or anyone else (or help bring down the Towers). The issue is the furtherance of an extreme Right agenda, worldwide Nazi police state, I suppose. It would seem that IF such deep, deep black USAPS exist, they would consist of a series of massacres linked by a common theme. Obviously this is pure speculation, but a black op doing Sandy-linked school shootings, backed presumably by some Gottlieb-type evil scientist, might get a kick out of embedding Batman references and using the movie to progsram patsies. I commented on another thread about the Sandy and Cassandra connections throughout these shootings, whether through names of featured victims' families or geographic localities, and usually the latter. I could imagine some type of Operation Cassandra that has nothing to do, essentially with gun control--this simply provides a cover story or diversion tactic for the true goal, which is continuing to usher in the police state.

In my mind I have the names of people and their connections, and it seems to me that between 9-11, Iran-Contra, a possible black ops Brabant group for mass shootings (the Giant, the Killer, and the Old Man), and etc., we really wouldn't need a very big group at all. Sometimes it seems that way, and then at other times it seems we would need a relatively large infrastructure. But I have come around to the firm belief that a single black op could be responsible at least for the shootings of the last two years.

My main question is how the f-- other shooters, or the real shooters, two or three at most, could possibly keep getting away. Fusion centers might provide the key--presumably CIA and other groups already deeply embedded in police infrastructure in places where massacres occur, just like they are in NYPD. Something like that in Aurora, and Connecticut wouldn't be that difficult.

FWIW, which might not be much, two stories from the Courant

Police To Re-Create Scene Outside Sandy Hook School
Bullets Hit Cars In Parking Lot, And Officers Want To Know If Lanza Was Firing At Them

State police are considering partially re-creating the scene outside the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown on Dec. 14 as the first police officers responded to the mass shooting to try and answer a nagging question: Did Adam Lanza fire at police officers?

Police are discussing bringing back some of the cars that were in the school lot as the first Newtown officers and state police troopers arrived following 911 calls that was a shooter was on the loose. The cars will be placed exactly where they parked that morning as will the police cruisers of the first responders. The plan is to receate the scene in the coming week.

Police have found numerous bullets outside the school that hit at least three cars, including the one owned by Lauren Rousseau, who was killed by Lanza in her classroom along with 14 of her students and a special-education aide. The three cars that were hit, belonging to Sandy Hook staffers, were near where at least one of the first group of officers parked before running into the school, sources said.

First responders said they could hear gunshots when they arrived, meaning Lanza was still firing. It was only after they entered the building that the shooting stopped and police discovered that Lanza, 20, had killed himself with a pistol, but not before killing 26 others in the school, including 20 first-graders, with a Bushmaster .223 rifle.


Sources said the bullets that hit cars outside probably were fired from teacher Victoria Soto's room. That was the second room Lanza entered as he firing at teachers and students. Soto and her aide, Mary Ann Murphy, were killed there, as were six students. Six other children escaped because, police believe, Lanza stopped firing briefly either because his gun jammed or he had trouble reloading his gun. Seven other students survived because Soto hid them in a closet.

Investigators are trying to determine if the bullets fired into the parking lot were strays as Lanza fired in Soto's classroom or if he saw officers arriving and fired through the window at them. Investigators have done trajectory work in the classroom but now want to line up the police cars and see if it is possible some of the bullets were aimed at them.

No cruisers were hit and none of the officers interviewed so far has indicated that they were shot at. But several of the officers involved in the initial response have not been interviewed yet because they are still traumatized and they may not have realized they were being shot at as they ran towards the school.

It is unclear if those officers will be able to return to the parking lot to recreate the scene outside the building. Police have photographs from the day of the shooting to help them put the cars back in the right spots.

The partial re-creation will likely be one of the last things state police do at the school before wrapping up that part of the investigation. There are no plans to recreate what happened inside the school or to interview any of the students who survived, police say.

State police walled off the roughly 200 square-foot crime scene from the rest of the school. They have spent considerable time attempting to find all of the bullets that Lanza fired.

Lanza started his shooting spree by killing his mother, Nancy Lanza, at their Yogananda Court home in Newtown. He shot her four times in the head with a .22 rifle that he left in the house.

Lanza also left a shotgun capable of firing up to 20 rounds in the trunk of the Honda that he drove to the elementary school. Police believe that Lanza, who barely weighed 110 pounds, couldn't carry the shotgun into the school because of all the other guns and ammunition he had.

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut ... 5631.story

No Timeline For Newtown Shooting Probe


The state's attorney on Thursday would not give a time frame for the investigation of the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre.

But Danbury State's Attorney Stephen J. Sedensky III said he will continue to work with local, state and federal agencies on the criminal probe and decide, when the final report is done, if there will be any arrests.

A spokeswoman from the Connecticut State Police said that department is not giving out a timeline either.

Adam Lanza fatally shot 20 students and six staff members before killing himself during a Dec. 14 rampage at the Newtown school. He had earlier shot and killed his mother at their home.

While the shooter is dead, investigators are trying to determine if anyone knew Lanza had planned the assault.

Sedensky would not talk about the investigation, which he said involves the state police, Newtown police, the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner and other local and state agencies, along with federal investigators.

"It cannot be stated too often how invaluable and necessary the work of the United States Attorney's Office, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the United States Marshals Service, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and other federal agencies was and is to this investigation," Sedensky said in a written statement emailed by the Chief State's Attorney's Office.

In a phone interview, Sedensky said, "I have just been so pleased with the cooperation of all the agencies since day one."

He said he issued the statement "just to kind of clear up, procedurally, what we're doing." He said doesn't want to imply that any arrests are expected.

"At the same time, I can't say absolutely not," Sedensky said. "I can't say absolutely not because I have to see the whole investigation."

There already has been an arrest in a related matter. A New York woman accused of pretending to be related to a young victim of the shooting and seeking donations through Facebook was arrested by federal authorities.

And federal firearms inspectors examined business records at the East Windsor gun shop where Nancy Lanza, Adam Lanza's mother, bought a weapon. Authorities said Adam Lanza used a Bushmaster .223-caliber semiautomatic rifle purchased by his mother; three law enforcement sources said Nancy Lanza had bought the Bushmaster rifle at the East Windsor store.

Sources said she bought one of several weapons she owned at the shop, Riverview Gun Sales, but the federal government's interest in the store grew out of events that are not related to the purchase.

Her guns appear to have been purchased legally and registered properly, the sources said.

No arrests stemming from the gun shop investigation have been announced.

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut ... 8293.story

dbcooper41 wrote:shooting his way in would have sent bullets in the opposite direction.
if you look at the pic of her car in the parking lot it is hard to imagine it being hit from inside.
but, even if it was, what are the odds of her car, and her, being hit in the same attack?

Assuming that there are about 40 cars in that image of the parking lot that belong to teachers and staff, the odds of any particular car being hit by a random pair of bullets fired in the same direction are one in forty. I'm no expert on probabilities, but it seems to me that any person whose car was hit by bullets in the attack still would have the same odds of having been shot during the attack itself, i.e. ~600 persons in the school, ~30 persons shot, the odds are 30/600 = one in twenty. Roughly. If I'm not mistaken, to get the full odds for both events happening to the same person, we multiply the two fractions, 1/20 x 1/40 = 1/800. Is that right?

ON EDIT: Just saw c2w's post above which says three cars were shot, so: 1/20 x 3/40 = 1/266.66

1/266.66? sad, simply sad. can we get anyone better on the gate for this job?

weren't the two classrooms on the front side of the school, with windows facing the parking lot?

dbcooper41 wrote:1/266.66? sad, simply sad. can we get anyone better on the gate for this job?

I know, I know - the decimal is inappropriate. Let's just round it up to one in two-hundred and sixty-seven. But if you find fault with my figuring, let me know what that might be. It wouldn't surprise me, because, IANA statistician. But I don't see any reasonable way to create a situation in which the two occurrences you wish to connect via oddsmaking might wind up some astronomical figure.

barracuda wrote: ON EDIT: Just saw c2w's post above which says three cars were shot, so: 1/20 x 3/40 = 1/266.66

Wait, wait wait. Point of clarification:

I have no fucking idea how those bullet holes got in Rousseau's car or what the odds of them being there are, and wasn't pretending anything else. It's just that the article was on point, so I posted it. That's all.

dbcooper41 wrote:1/266.66? sad, simply sad. can we get anyone better on the gate for this job?

Wait, wait, wait again. Nobody -- iincluding officials, you, and that blogger -- appears to know anything at all about the question. So how can there fucking be gate-keeping? There's no gate.

compared2what? wrote: I have no fucking idea how those bullet holes got in Rousseau's car or what the odds of them being there are, and wasn't pretending anything else. It's just that the article was on point, so I posted it. That's all.

I totally get that. My statement was no reflection on your personal ideas about the how. I'm just saying, in response to dbcooper's request for the odds that a car belonging to a victim might have been shot: IF the bullet holes in the car or cars came from the school shooter, rather than ANYWHERE ELSE THEY MAY HAVE POSSIBLY ORIGINATED, then the chance that a hit car in the parking lot might have belonged to a victim are fairly high, considering that each adult victim in the school probably had a car in the parking lot. I mean, my odds may be wrong, but if eight adults were shot and there were forty cars in the lot, that means one of every five cars in the parking lot belonged to a victim. Carpooling and the geometries of the ballistics aside, of course, because we don't know jack about that. And yes, I tried to count the cars in that fucking picture, and made a best guess as to how many of them weren't responders' vehicles.

And db, you can sort of bite me, because you obviously didn't even try to figure out the odds, you just kinda threw your hands skyward and rhetorically asked "WHAT ARE THE ODDS, PEOPLE??" as if no one would really try to examine the question and any sane person would just understand by your mere incredulous tone that the true odds must be over nine-trillion to one against such an incredible thing ever happening. They're not, though.

geogeo wrote: I'm just trying to say that within the purview of the funding of waived USAPS, buried deep enough, and well inside the private sector for even more protection, (but, no doubt, with our tax dollars) we have all the precedents for inclusions of the occult, brainwashing of patsies, and savage black ops militants who would not hesitate to kill schoolchildren or anyone else (or help bring down the Towers). The issue is the furtherance of an extreme Right agenda, worldwide Nazi police state, I suppose. It would seem that IF such deep, deep black USAPS exist, they would consist of a series of massacres linked by a common theme. Obviously this is pure speculation, but a black op doing Sandy-linked school shootings, backed presumably by some Gottlieb-type evil scientist, might get a kick out of embedding Batman references and using the movie to progsram patsies.

There are such people who have such agendas, but not in regards to the majority of these mass killing cases.

Some of the cases bear the hallmarks of an operation, or at least of a lab created assassin gone AWOL, mainly the DC sniper case, but I can't see the network wasting resources on something this big, messy, and random with no demonstrable benefit. Despite all the speculation no one has been able to come up with what that benefit might be. The network is fond of killing two or more birds with one stone, and there may have been specific targets among those grade schoolers, but even so, there are other, less risky ways of getting rid of kids than a mass shooting.

There is no reason to assume black op when there are plenty of reasons why mass murders appear to be more common in recent history.

1. There are more humans than ever before on the planet, and mass killings are not a new phenomenon, they have always been part of human experience. There will be more.

2. Loss of physical community. Despite all of the social networking conducted through plentiful devices, community involvement in our time is voluntary, it doesn't just happen as a consequence of going about your daily life, as it did in the past, one must make it happen. The benefit of being known in a broader community, especially for a troubled kid, is at least he and his troubles are seen, he is witnessed, even if the response to him is unhealthy. Many of these shooters never escaped their insular family systems, which were also opaque to the community, and if they had, they could function while remaining largely invisible. Isolation is a perfect petri dish for pathology. Being witnessed may be enough to break the chain of internal dialogue that otherwise runs uninterrupted leading up to acting out.

3. The article I linked to up thread explored quite adequately the psychology and social forces that can foster in certain individuals a propensity towards these sorts of acts. It's really not a huge mystery why it happens, as long as you approach the subject without a stubborn confirmation bias.

Project Willow wrote:There is no reason to assume black op when there are plenty of reasons why mass murders appear to be more common in recent history.

I strongly disagree for several reasons:

1) This has every appearance of a black op: highly improbable lone-nut shooter; no physical evidence of his involvement; no recent photographs of this shooter or his mother, much less of their corpses; and most ridiculously familiar of all, no evidence of a motive.

2) Overall US crime rates are going down, not up, for many reasons including demographic changes, exploding prison populations, 3-strikes laws and so on. However, 2012 was the deadliest of the last 30 years for mass shootings, which are on the rise.

3) There's an obvious beneficiary who is predictably benefiting, namely, the US small arms industry, which prospers mightily after every sensationalized mass shooting. For example:

Fearful of ban, frenzied buyers swarm gun stores
By By JOSEPH PISANI | Associated Press – Fri, Dec 28, 2012

"We had to shut everything off," says Horsley, whose family has owned Red's Trading Post, the state's oldest gun shop, since 1936. "We were swamped in the store and online."

The phones at gun shops across the country are ringing off the hook. Demand for firearms, ammunition and bulletproof gear has surged since the Dec. 14 massacre in Newtown, Conn., that took the lives of 20 schoolchildren and six teachers and administrators. The shooting sparked calls for tighter gun control measures, especially for military-style assault weapons like the ones used in Newtown and in the Aurora, Colo., movie theater shooting earlier this year. The prospect of a possible weapons ban has sent gun enthusiasts into a panic and sparked a frenzy of buying at stores and gun dealers nationwide.

Assault rifles are sold out across the country. Rounds of .223 bullets, like those used in the AR-15 type Bushmaster rifle used in Newtown, are scarce. Stores are struggling to restock their shelves. Gun and ammunition makers are telling retailers they will have to wait months to get more.

Store owners who have been in the business for years say they have never seen demand like this before.

When asked how much sales have increased in the past few weeks, Horsley just laughed. "We haven't even had a chance to look at it," he says. Horsley spends his days calling manufacturers around the country trying to buy more items for the store. Mainly, they tell him he has to wait.

http://news.yahoo.com/fearful-ban-frenz ... nance.html

No surprise. And then there's the US gun dealers' lobby HQ across the highway:

The Second Most Powerful Gun Lobby Is in Newtown, Connecticut
Lydia DePillis | December 14, 2012 | 5:07 pm

Just across the highway from Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, in a stately white building with an American flag flying out front, is the headquarters of the United States’ premiere industry association for gun retailers.

It’s not the consumer-focused National Rifle Association. The National Shooting Sports Foundation has kept a lower profile over the years, but is likely the second-most-powerful force for firearms use in the country.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/plank/111148/th ... gun-rights#

All of this has been posted here many times already so how anyone can come to such an oblivious conclusion is a puzzle.

Powerful video here... Via Aangirfan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKAqZuCG ... r_embedded