barracuda wrote:wintler2 wrote:...and wouldn't it be great to have a working definition of trolling.
The finest vintage trolling is virtually imperceptible, though. A master trollista will create a swirling gyre of havoc and distrust all around himself, appearing all the while as the only calm, responsible, clear-headed poster in the bunch. The trolls around here rarely display such skillz, as evidenced by the current
Concerning the Jews by Mark Twain aka Samuel Clemens thread, which is presented by chump as a "
jewel" (get it?) under the guise of promoting a serious discussion. This is a classic, if obvious, attempt to rile certain posters, who have thus far generously avoided taking the bait. In this manner, it constitutes a failed troll, although you can sort of discern the snickering of the original poster as he carefully cut and pasted away the introduction included in the unlinked-to posting on Truthseeker, written by Henry Makow:
(Editor's Note- People are individuals and should be judged as such, yet clearly the behavior of certain Jews taints all. I wish more Jews had the courage to speak up and condemn this behavior. There is no self reform without self criticism. Also, as you know, I believe this behavior (greed, social irresponsibility) now extends far beyond Jews. This extract from Twain's 1898 essay puts the current investigation into Wall Street practices in perspective.)
Trolling is really done just to stir shit for the sake of shit stirring. You can't really believe what you troll about, which is why 17breezes doesn't really qualify. He is obviously under the very real impression that Jews have to be watchful of anti-semitism, and there is some truth to that as we all are aware. And most of the time it doesn't seem as if he's even looking for a response, while for a true troll, the response is everything.
wintler2 wrote:I think repeatedly posting claims unsupported by any real evidence and not at least admitting when they are unsupported by evidence is trolling.
That's a pretty fine line in this particular venue. I mean, how many times have you posted some semi-rigorous point about an extremely marginal fringe topic
X, only to be followed up by the classic response of, "Yeah, you're probably right, but I still know that
X is true/false." Now that person may be trying to get your goat, or - hey, you know what? - maybe they really
were abducted by mantis-headed zenomorphs from a homemade crop circle, but they have little fallback beyond the truth of their own experience. Evidence around the topics we examine here can be scantier than Lady Gaga's thong, but that's what's so tantalizing about it all.
Night before last, before going to bed after a long, weird day, I logged on, and made a post, and then saw the above. I wasn't even going to look at this thread, because it consisted purely of the same prickish, personal attacks that derails so many threads. If I had seen what you wrote here, before I last posted in that other thread, I wouldn't have been so nice. I don't even know what a troll is and now I am being used as the definition! And a clever one at that! Clever on your part!
I am not interested in wasting your time, or mine. I don't work for anyone. The first time I ever blogged was here. I don't post anywhere else. Sometimes, I put a lot of time and thought into what I post here, trying to articulate what I am thinking; at other times I don't have time to do that, but try to contribute something just to let people know that I read what they posted and to briefly comment. My only agenda is that I want to write about and try to figure out some things that are discussed here that no one else is talking about. I strive to be accurate, respectful, more positive and to the point. When I post something, I am looking for a response, some interaction, but not to deceive or incite a riot. I know this place can be cantankerous. I'm still experimenting and learning my way around. Maybe I should find a book on Internet Ettiquette. Maybe you and Jack should write one.
What was your problem in with the way I posted the Mark Twain essay? The jewel thing went completely over my head; although that is cute. As for the cut and pasting, I'm not sure what I did wrong. I mentioned in my post that it was through truthseeker, but I thought that Mark Twain's perspective on Jews was interesting and had some weight to it because of the author. So I linked to the original 1898 article. You brought Makow into the discussion and somehow made it seem as though I did. Indeed, the discussions I've been seeing about anti-semitism probably led me to feel that Twain's perspective would be appreciated. Some people seemed to understand that, but you and even Jeff interpretted it as inflammatory - and trollish?.
http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/ ... 181,00.asp#
quote
Definition of: trolling
(1) Surfing, or browsing, the Web.
(2) Posting derogatory messages about sensitive subjects on newsgroups and chat rooms to bait users into responding.
(3) Hanging around in a chat room without saying anything, like a "peeping tom."
http://kb.iu.edu/data/afhc.html
In email discussion lists, online forums, and Usenet newsgroups, a troll is not a grumpy monster that lives beneath a bridge accosting passers-by, but rather a provocative posting intended to produce a large volume of frivolous responses. The term can also refer to someone making such a posting ("a troll") or to the action ("trolling", "to troll").
The content of a troll posting generally falls into one of several categories. It may consist of an apparently foolish contradiction of common knowledge, a deliberately offensive insult to the readers of a newsgroup or mailing list, or a broad request for trivial follow-up postings. The result of such postings is frequently a flood of angry responses. In some cases, the follow-up messages posted in response to a troll can constitute a large fraction of the contents of a newsgroup or mailing list for as long as several weeks. These messages are transmitted around the world to thousands of computers, wasting network resources and costing money for people who pay to download email or receive Usenet news. Troll threads also frustrate people who are trying to carry on substantive discussions.
People post such messages to get attention, to disrupt discussion, and to make trouble. The best response to a troll is no response. If you post a follow-up message, you are contributing to the resulting clamor and most likely delighting the troller. Before posting a response, consider the following questions:
•Have responses already been posted by others?
•Will my post add any information that others are not likely to be aware of already?
•Is the issue resolvable, or will discussion turn into name-calling?
•Should I send private email instead of posting publicly?
•Will I later regret the contents of what I am posting?
Please deal with trolls constructively, and do not participate in trolling. You will help make mailing lists and online forums much more enjoyable venues for discussion.
I hope I cut and pasted that correctly!
According to every definition I have found, here and on the internet, you, yourself, are a troll - including the "the grumpy monster"! Admittedly, I am guilty of some of that stuff too, but I didn't know I was doing anything wrong. So where do we draw the line Genius?
For the most part, my experience here has been wonderful. I can hardly believe that you were serious in what you posted. Wow! You backhandedly called me a liar, an agent and an idiot. I have to admit, I felt hurt, and then it pissed me off. So I waited to respond. I had some things to say, but I really don't know if it is worth it to gird my loins and post again.
Ciao.
