The Making of a Mind-Controlled Killer

[AhabsOtherLeg]

Ach. So he's no Shayler.

But a polka dot dress, or pattern at least, appears? That is quite something.

[Gnomad]

Yup, a lady in a blue polka dot dress comes in and sits in front of the hypnotized guy, then turns around and whispers "Stephen Fry is the target" to him, then sits back. Also, it is her phone that rings with the mark tone to put him in the "marksman mode" that had been programmed and practiced earlier.

[BrandonD]

A question that occurred to me after watching this episode: Does the "handshake induction" method still work even though someone is familiar with it and possibly even expecting it? Isn't part of the success of this technique hinged upon the fact that it is unexpected and confusing?

Derren uses this handshake induction method in nearly every single show he's ever made, and since he's quite a celebrity in the UK, I can't imagine that many people are not expecting him to raise their hand over their face during the handshake. And yet, it *appears* to always work.

[Hammer of Los]

Like Randi, I don't think I would ever be able to trust Derren Brown to tell the truth.

I'm guessing he has a shadowy past. Maybe I'll go check.

Regardless, he is a remarkable individual, highly talented in practical techniques and with a wide breadth of knowledge.

You know, the subject of Mind Control covers just about everything when you think about it.

Anyone ever gives me a funny handshake though, and I shall slap them across the face.

I mean it.

[Stephen Morgan]

His book was interesting. Very informative on the nature of memory, can't remember much else, past the debunking of astrology.

Anyone see the second episode? Very depressing.

[Searcher08]

Like Randi, I don't think I would ever be able to trust Derren Brown to tell the truth.

I'm guessing he has a shadowy past. Maybe I'll go check.

Regardless, he is a remarkable individual, highly talented in practical techniques and with a wide breadth of knowledge.

You know, the subject of Mind Control covers just about everything when you think about it.

Anyone ever gives me a funny handshake though, and I shall slap them across the face.

I mean it.

3-2-1 You will only THINK you have slapped my face, as you make chicken noises

[Hammer of Los]

You can try me at the fabled UK London meetup that neither was, is nor will be.

[Searcher08]

You can try me at the fabled UK London meetup that neither was, is nor will be.

[BrandonD]

Hey did anyone ever get a chance to see that youtube video that was (very) briefly online, the one with the guy from one of the episodes who was admitting on camera that he was an actor? It was this older kind of punk-rock looking guy whom Darren had a "staring contest" with in one of those outdoor public demonstrations he does.

I only saw a screen shot, because it was taken down before I had a chance to see it. Just wondering if anyone here had a chance to see it, and if so why it was taken down so quickly?

[professorpan]

Derren is first and foremost an entertainer. When I was performing as a mentalist, I had a bit of a correspondence with him, and he was smart, decent, and helpful. He's one of the most respected thinkers and performers in the field, but please always remember—his primary goal is to entertain. Many people have a hard time accepting mentalism (psychic magic) as evidence of paranormal abilities these days, so Derren wraps his magic in something they can—influence, mind control, subliminal suggestion, and other subjects that seem possible. But the effects he is producing are all rooted classic mentalism. It's magic, folks. Enjoy it, but don't take what he says it is too seriously.

[BrandonD]

Derren is first and foremost an entertainer. When I was performing as a mentalist, I had a bit of a correspondence with him, and he was smart, decent, and helpful. He's one of the most respected thinkers and performers in the field, but please always remember—his primary goal is to entertain. Many people have a hard time accepting mentalism (psychic magic) as evidence of paranormal abilities these days, so Derren wraps his magic in something they can—influence, mind control, subliminal suggestion, and other subjects that seem possible. But the effects he is producing are all rooted classic mentalism. It's magic, folks. Enjoy it, but don't take what he says it is too seriously.

Understood, but being a skilled mentalist deceiving random members of the public and being basically an actor speaking a script to other actors are two vey different things. When I first discovered Derren I was more on the side of "skilled mentalist" and now I find myself leaning more and more towards "actor", particularly with the most recent shows he has put out.

[professorpan]

All good mentalists are good actors. But again, he's an entertainer, and everything he does is built on that primary goal. He has a great shtick with the influence/hypnosis/mind control thing, and although other mentalists have used his approach, he's hands-down the best at it.

[psynapz]

Many people have a hard time accepting mentalism (psychic magic) as evidence of paranormal abilities these days, so Derren wraps his magic in something they can—influence, mind control, subliminal suggestion, and other subjects that seem possible. But the effects he is producing are all rooted classic mentalism. It's magic, folks.

Pan, are you saying that mentalists [or say just you] demonstrate paranormal abilities using schtick as a cover, not the other way around?

[professorpan]

Mentalism is magic—as in tricks. But it is usually portrayed as real (or, at least, potentially real). Some mentalists use a disclaimer, essentially saying up front "This is all trickery. None of it is real." I never did that. I think magic is supposed to entertain and make people wonder if it might *just possibly* be real magic. And some forms of mentalism—contact mind reading and hypnosis, in particular—are pretty close to the "real thing."

If you look back at the history of mentalism, it became very popular during the spiritualist craze, and mentalists often replicated spiritualist phenomena (ectoplasm, messages on slates, etc.). It has always been a form of magic that evokes deep reactions because it's the stuff that many people consider "real." (I believe in psi phenomena, which is why I found mentalism so intriguing when I was younger—it's a way to simulate psi with trickery.)

But to answer your question directly, no. What I meant was mentalists use trickery to simulate psychic abilities—that's the premise. Derren performs classic mentalism but his premise is that it's mind control or persuasion or subliminal. But he could be doing the same effects and claiming paranormal abilities. The material is the same, but his explanation and his patter is more behavioral and scientific.

And I know a lot of mentalists who do believe in psi. Unlike your average magician, who often gets associated with skeptical reductionist/atheist/materialists like Randi and Penn and Teller, mentalists often have had psychic experiences or an interest in psi which drew them to mentalism over standard magic. Some, like myself, also worked as readers (I read Tarot cards professionally). They're a different breed, which is why l like their company better than generic magicians, many of whom I've found to be assholes who took to magic because of inferiority and use magic as a way to "get back" at people. That's a generalization, but I've met enough magicians to think there's some truth to it.

[BrandonD]

Mentalism is magic—as in tricks. But it is usually portrayed as real (or, at least, potentially real). Some mentalists use a disclaimer, essentially saying up front "This is all trickery. None of it is real." I never did that. I think magic is supposed to entertain and make people wonder if it might *just possibly* be real magic. And some forms of mentalism—contact mind reading and hypnosis, in particular—are pretty close to the "real thing."

If you look back at the history of mentalism, it became very popular during the spiritualist craze, and mentalists often replicated spiritualist phenomena (ectoplasm, messages on slates, etc.). It has always been a form of magic that evokes deep reactions because it's the stuff that many people consider "real." (I believe in psi phenomena, which is why I found mentalism so intriguing when I was younger—it's a way to simulate psi with trickery.)

But to answer your question directly, no. What I meant was mentalists use trickery to simulate psychic abilities—that's the premise. Derren performs classic mentalism but his premise is that it's mind control or persuasion or subliminal. But he could be doing the same effects and claiming paranormal abilities. The material is the same, but his explanation and his patter is more behavioral and scientific.

Yes, BUT everything you're describing involves the "mentalist" or "magician" working with a person who is NOT an actor. This is still very different than "actor Derren Brown" speaking scripted words to "actor pretending to be random member of the public".

The first requires some degree of skill, the second could be done by any trained monkey. I'm saying that many of Derren's tricks, and indeed entire episodes of his, are nothing more than completely faked shows being performed by actors.

Watch "Hero at 30,000 Feet" for a very obvious example of this.