rigorousintuition.ca

Not sure about 'nationalism' being a requisite, even though initial emotional appeals may be made on this basis.

The Nazis (for example) were not really nationalists ultimately, they invaded multiple other nations with impunity, so nationalism was not their ideology.

American Dream » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:30 pm wrote:

Searcher08 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:18 pm wrote: Contemporary fascist regimes are, in summary, authoritarian, nationalist, single-party police states strongly promoting racial or ethnic identities and having economies heavily regulated or even dominated by the government. [/i]

I have repeatedly asked you to contribute your thoughts, but as it appears I am not using YOUR framework, you are now getting irate and Shifting The Game

Far from starting with a verdict, Giraldi makes a good acceptable broad definition of fascism, which you have made NO COMMENT ON.

From that definition, he looks to see what is happening in Israel and most, though not all, aligns with Israel evolving towards a fascist state.
.

I did see the Giraldi piece when you posted it, was not aware that we had all agreed that this was the definition of Fascism we would consense upon.

That said, I think you need to revisit the last few pages as I've contributed my thoughts a good number of times- perhaps you need to revisit them? -especially my questions and comments about whether and how the State of Israel is somehow exceptional in this regard...

This feels like a Heffalump trap
If I say "Israel IS exceptional" Solace will say OOOOO Only fucking anti-Semites make Israel *exceptional*
If I say it is NOT exceptional you will say "Well what is there to talk about ... well unless we look at things my way in terms of Patriarchy, Homophobia, Settler-Colonial etc etc etc"

I shall avoid this spiked binary baloney....

I am thinking of Israel as different enough to be a focus of study. For example, the UK doesnt have a wall around Brixton, shoot (many) people (*), etc etc.

I think Israel is MOST worth looking at as a potential harbinger of things to come for everyone else. As a (sometime) futurist, I personally think that is important.

AD, Our Mutual Trust Level = 0.001


(*)Except if they are Micks

jakell » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:41 pm wrote:Not sure about 'nationalism' being a requisite, even though initial emotional appeals may be made on this basis.

The Nazis (for example) were not really nationalists ultimately, they invaded multiple other nations with impunity, so nationalism was not their ideology.

I think wrapping oneself in the flag is a big motivation for at least an important period.
I think a nationalism which is linked to victimhood and a historic destiny in a kind of molecule.

I saw the movie Elysium recently and thought the only thing unrealistic about it was the date 2154. One hundred years too far ahead.. Los Angeles was one big Gaza.

Searcher08 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:53 pm wrote:

American Dream » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:30 pm wrote:

Searcher08 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:18 pm wrote: Contemporary fascist regimes are, in summary, authoritarian, nationalist, single-party police states strongly promoting racial or ethnic identities and having economies heavily regulated or even dominated by the government. [/i]

I have repeatedly asked you to contribute your thoughts, but as it appears I am not using YOUR framework, you are now getting irate and Shifting The Game

Far from starting with a verdict, Giraldi makes a good acceptable broad definition of fascism, which you have made NO COMMENT ON.

From that definition, he looks to see what is happening in Israel and most, though not all, aligns with Israel evolving towards a fascist state.
.

I did see the Giraldi piece when you posted it, was not aware that we had all agreed that this was the definition of Fascism we would consense upon.

That said, I think you need to revisit the last few pages as I've contributed my thoughts a good number of times- perhaps you need to revisit them? -especially my questions and comments about whether and how the State of Israel is somehow exceptional in this regard...

This feels like a Heffalump trap
If I say "Israel IS exceptional" Solace will say OOOOO Only fucking anti-Semites make Israel *exceptional*
If I say it is NOT exceptional you will say "Well what is there to talk about ... well unless we look at things my way in terms of Patriarchy, Homophobia, Settler-Colonial etc etc etc"

I shall avoid this spiked binary baloney....

I am thinking of Israel as different enough to be a focus of study. For example, the UK doesnt have a wall around Brixton, shoot (many) people (*), etc etc.

I think Israel is MOST worth looking at as a potential harbinger of things to come for everyone else. As a (sometime) futurist, I personally think that is important.

AD, Our Mutual Trust Level = 0.001


(*)Except if they are Micks

I don't agree- I think it's possible to make a compelling case that Israel is somehow heads and shoulders above the U.S., Russia, China and Britain in the Fascism Dept. by careful reasoning and a coherent marshaling of evidence in support of that thesis. However, I see no good evidence that this is the case.

The stuff about solace and me dissenting seems more like an excuse for not making a rigorous argument when you've started with a fairly bogus conclusion and then worked backwards from there.

If, on the other hand your thesis was something more like "Israel does a lot of bad things and we should organize in an effective and non-racist way in order to change that and create a much more just outcome for the people of the Palestinian Diaspora and all the people of the region", I quite likely would agree.

.

American Dream » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:41 pm wrote:

Searcher08 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:53 pm wrote:

American Dream » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:30 pm wrote:

Searcher08 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:18 pm wrote: Contemporary fascist regimes are, in summary, authoritarian, nationalist, single-party police states strongly promoting racial or ethnic identities and having economies heavily regulated or even dominated by the government. [/i]

I have repeatedly asked you to contribute your thoughts, but as it appears I am not using YOUR framework, you are now getting irate and Shifting The Game

Far from starting with a verdict, Giraldi makes a good acceptable broad definition of fascism, which you have made NO COMMENT ON.

From that definition, he looks to see what is happening in Israel and most, though not all, aligns with Israel evolving towards a fascist state.
.

I did see the Giraldi piece when you posted it, was not aware that we had all agreed that this was the definition of Fascism we would consense upon.

That said, I think you need to revisit the last few pages as I've contributed my thoughts a good number of times- perhaps you need to revisit them? -especially my questions and comments about whether and how the State of Israel is somehow exceptional in this regard...

This feels like a Heffalump trap
If I say "Israel IS exceptional" Solace will say OOOOO Only fucking anti-Semites make Israel *exceptional*
If I say it is NOT exceptional you will say "Well what is there to talk about ... well unless we look at things my way in terms of Patriarchy, Homophobia, Settler-Colonial etc etc etc"

I shall avoid this spiked binary baloney....

I am thinking of Israel as different enough to be a focus of study. For example, the UK doesnt have a wall around Brixton, shoot (many) people (*), etc etc.

I think Israel is MOST worth looking at as a potential harbinger of things to come for everyone else. As a (sometime) futurist, I personally think that is important.

AD, Our Mutual Trust Level = 0.001


(*)Except if they are Micks

I don't agree- I think it's possible to make a compelling case that Israel is somehow heads and shoulders above the U.S., Russia, China and Britain in the Fascism Dept. by careful reasoning and a coherent marshaling of evidence in support of that thesis. However, I see no good evidence that this is the case.

The stuff about solace and me dissenting seems more like an excuse for not making a rigorous argument when you've started with a fairly bogus conclusion and then worked backwards from there.

If, on the other hand your thesis was something more like "Israel does a lot of bad things and we should organize in an effective and non-racist way in order to change that and create a much more just outcome for the people of the Palestinian Diaspora and all the people of the region", I quite likely would agree.

It's ironic how now that it's about Israel, all the posters who whine the most about fascism posts are on it like dogs on a meaty bone. Ironic but totally expected. Time IS a flat circle. etc etc

American Dream » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:41 pm wrote:
I don't agree- I think it's possible to make a compelling case that Israel is somehow heads and shoulders above the U.S., Russia, China and Britain in the Fascism Dept. by careful reasoning and a coherent marshaling of evidence in support of that thesis. However, I see no good evidence that this is the case.

The one thing that you have not done ANYWHERE on this thread is engage with a useful definition of fascism, which is in the map.
You are now trying to shift the argument to a different sized frame, which is your opinion on my argumentation. That is for a thread on reductionism, not this one. I suggested this many times.

This thread is about Israel's Evolution Towards Racism and Fascism

American Dream » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:41 pm wrote:The stuff about solace and me dissenting seems more like an excuse for not making a rigorous argument when you've started with a fairly bogus conclusion and then worked backwards from there.

Nonsense.
Firstly, each part of Giraldi's argument was evidence -based and derived from a broad sensible definition of fascism. You know like looking at observable facts, rather than your looking through your ideology and deriving the world and 'the plan' from that.

(Just as an aside regarding Solace, does she work for the ADL?... I experience her as your plausible deniability, kinda shit-flinging by proxy. Not that I have any problem with that, of course.)

American Dream » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:41 pm wrote: If, on the other hand your thesis was something more like "Israel does a lot of bad things and we should organize in an effective and non-racist way in order to change that and create a much more just outcome for the people of the Palestinian Diaspora and all the people of the region", I quite likely would agree.

You last paragraph parses as
If you said "Lots of Statements from AD's belief system" AD would quite likely would agree.
Tautology central.

Apart from never agreeing to align with a statement with foggy meaningless weasel words like "Israel does a lot of bad things"( WTF does that even mean? You may as well say "Israel can sometimes be meanies"..)
In business terms, this is called a 'Mom and Apple Pie' vision statement and is usually produced by a group of connected people having a lot of discussion that is very meaningful to them AND means Sweet FA to people who were not there. Quite often the people who experienced get really disheartened when they see others not share their enthusiasm.
These statements are as Wiki says
"Something that can't be questioned because it appeals to universally-held beliefs or values."

Finally, words like "started with a fairly bogus conclusion" when you have not stated what that actually is, is associational thinking, not argumentation.

Let's create a jargon-free map online visual map of what may constitute trends towards fascism in Israel, using a broad-based definition of the term, and focusing on the trajectories these trends are taking over time, with particular focus on the next 5-10 years and potential mirroring outside of Israel.
My assertion is that it is worth exploring these trends in their own right.

solace » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:48 pm wrote:
It's ironic how now that it's about Israel, all the posters who whine the most about fascism posts are on it like dogs on a meaty bone. Ironic but totally expected. Time IS a flat circle. etc etc

I imagine that you would feel uncomfortably puffed-up with rage getting as far as AD's "Israel does bad things", as that would be what 'fucking anti-Semites' say.

Searcher08 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:01 pm wrote: (Just as an aside regarding Solace, does she work for the ADL?... I experience her as your plausible deniability, kinda shit-flinging by proxy. Not that I have any problem with that, of course.)

Searcher, now that you've degenerated to the level of agent-baiting, the conversation is over.



.

American Dream » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:12 pm wrote:

Searcher08 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:01 pm wrote: (Just as an aside regarding Solace, does she work for the ADL?... I experience her as your plausible deniability, kinda shit-flinging by proxy. Not that I have any problem with that, of course.)

Searcher, now that you've degenerated to the level of agent-baiting, the conversation is over.

Stealing a concept from a former poster long banned, the jig is up. I may as well confess. Here is my true identity:

+

I hope I passed the audition and am solidly on his Jew-List.

jakell » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:41 pm wrote:Not sure about 'nationalism' being a requisite, even though initial emotional appeals may be made on this basis.

The Nazis (for example) were not really nationalists ultimately, they invaded multiple other nations with impunity, so nationalism was not their ideology.

Huh?

The Nazi can't have been nationalists because they invaded other countries?

American Dream » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:45 am wrote:

jakell » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:41 pm wrote:Not sure about 'nationalism' being a requisite, even though initial emotional appeals may be made on this basis.

The Nazis (for example) were not really nationalists ultimately, they invaded multiple other nations with impunity, so nationalism was not their ideology.

Huh?

The Nazi can't have been nationalists because they invaded other countries?

Correct. Being a nationalist means you regard a nation's sovereignty as important, if you only apply this to your own then that is arbitrary and therefore your 'nationalism' is not really an ideology but a temporary emotive vehicle, as it was with the Nazis.
This is another of the points that can be used against the rather unwieldy concept of white nationalism, of which I've I amassed a fair few in the 'New Europe' thread in between all the sound and fury.

jakell » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:56 am wrote:

American Dream » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:45 am wrote:

jakell » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:41 pm wrote:Not sure about 'nationalism' being a requisite, even though initial emotional appeals may be made on this basis.

The Nazis (for example) were not really nationalists ultimately, they invaded multiple other nations with impunity, so nationalism was not their ideology.

Huh?

The Nazi can't have been nationalists because they invaded other countries?

Correct. Being a nationalist means you regard a nation's sovereignty as important, if you only apply this to your own then that is arbitrary and therefore your 'nationalism' is not really an ideology but a temporary emotive vehicle, as it was with the Nazis.
This is another of the points that can be used against the rather unwieldy concept of white nationalism, of which I've I amassed a fair few in the 'New Europe' thread in between all the sound and fury.

Where do you get your definition of nationalism from?

It sounds to me like like more of a repackaging of nationalism as perhaps a "good" racial/ethnic separatism as opposed to the more accepted- and notorious- definitions of nationalism that we know are informing actual neo-fascist proposals for our future...

Even in a non-interventionist "nationalist" social order don't you think the spectre of racist violence and oppression looms large?

solace » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:11 am wrote:

American Dream » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:12 pm wrote:

Searcher08 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:01 pm wrote: (Just as an aside regarding Solace, does she work for the ADL?... I experience her as your plausible deniability, kinda shit-flinging by proxy. Not that I have any problem with that, of course.)

Searcher, now that you've degenerated to the level of agent-baiting, the conversation is over.

Stealing a concept from a former poster long banned, the jig is up. I may as well confess. Here is my true identity:

+

I hope I passed the audition and am solidly on his Jew-List.

My only thought about you Solace is that I have never read a post where you said anything other than one line "Hell yay!" or "Bullshit!" or "You fucking anti-Semite!" or did a High 5 to someone elses post.

Do you have any content to add to the thread?
<Gets coffee>

I would like to return to the subject of the thread

Israel's Evolution towards a fascist racist state

As an experiment, I want to map all the fact based issues involved in this.
For clarity, I am using a clear simple workaday definition of fascism

Contemporary fascist regimes are, in summary, authoritarian, nationalist, single-party police states strongly promoting racial or ethnic identities and having economies heavily regulated or even dominated by the government.

The evidence provided shows that Israel as a state meets some, though not all of the above.

So far I have mapped Giraldi's piece. I would like to incorporate different or opposing views.

This subject has been of considerable debate in Israel with articles in Haaretz and Ynet News.