The Liberals Thread

[stickdog99]

I don't even know what the fuck the label "liberal" means anymore.

When I was born the label most commonly referred to hawkish imperialists who felt that government needed to ameliorate the most blatantly racist and classist aspects of US capitalism to stave off "communist" critiques. I have no idea what the label "liberal" refers to today. Those who prefer their imperialist, globalist, oligarchic corpocracy to have undergone sensitivity training?

[stickdog99]

What I'm noticing from this thread is that the tone of vicious, merciless hatred towards the "stupid majority" is suddenly absent in a few of you.

Of course this majority may be misguided. It's really striking how the tone has changed from the murderous hatred some of you used to espouse.

This change of tone is going to encourage the populations who have been targeted by the vicious scorn of vocal, powerful minorities and cliques to keep standing up for themselves, especially as they find the likes of Trump won't solve all their problems.

What?

[dada]

There's an authoritarian bent to liberalism, too. I find it gets in the way when I converse with them. Or maybe it's my anti-authoritarian bent that gets in the way.

Exactly. In other words, they don't like it when you get uppity. You are expected to know your place.

It would be best if we could do it without it being snarky about it.

It would also be best if we could do it without being shy about it. Because liberals, being tendentially authoritarian, frequently interpret civility as weakness and respond with snark and condescension, or worse.

- I'm fading, and (for the record) feeling anything but jubilant. But also anything but submissive. Guardian columnists*, Daily Show smugsters and Dem Party operatives can all stick it where the sun don't shine. (Call me a Nasty Woman for that and I'll just get a Haitian sweatshop worker to make me the T-shirt, which I'll wear once and then give to my Filipino maid.)

Goodnight, all.

Fair points. How about I'll play good cop to your bad cop:)

Don't let me keep you awake, though, there's always tomorrow. We hope. ha

---

What I'm noticing from this thread is that the tone of vicious, merciless hatred towards the "stupid majority" is suddenly absent in a few of you.

Of course this majority may be misguided. It's really striking how the tone has changed from the murderous hatred some of you used to espouse.

This change of tone is going to encourage the populations who have been targeted by the vicious scorn of vocal, powerful minorities and cliques to keep standing up for themselves, especially as they find the likes of Trump won't solve all their problems.

You'll have to be more specific, I'm not grasping the 'who said what' that you're addressing, or what you're getting at.

[tapitsbo]

I don't have to be more specific because I'm not obligated to participate on your terms...

[norton ash]

It's the alt-right strawman repeated by tapitsbo, backtoiam, and Nordic that we big-city sophisticates have a mean, contemptuous tone toward struggling rural whites and working people. Like how calling christofascists, sexists and racists 'contemptible' is hate speech and disrespectful of a whole culture... you know, that one.

[dada]

I don't even know what the fuck the label "liberal" means anymore.

When I was born the label most commonly referred hawkish imperialists who felt that government needed to ameliorate the most blatantly racist and classist aspects of US capitalism to stave off "communist" critiques. I have no idea what the label "liberal" refers to today. Those who prefer their imperialist, globalist, oligarchic corpocracy to have undergone sensitivity training?

I think that's heading in the right direction.

Yesterday and today aren't the issue, though. It isn't a linear progression. As the goalposts shift, liberalism drifts.

[dada]

I don't have to be more specific because I'm not obligated to participate on your terms. I think you get the message and I note that you too have turned it down a notch since last night's result. Thank you.

haha! I see.

Nope. You never know what you're going to get with me.

[Iamwhomiam]

I don't even know what the fuck the label "liberal" means anymore.

When I was born the label most commonly referred hawkish imperialists who felt that government needed to ameliorate the most blatantly racist and classist aspects of US capitalism to stave off "communist" critiques. I have no idea what the label "liberal" refers to today. Those who prefer their imperialist, globalist, oligarchic corpocracy to have undergone insensitivity training?

There. FIFY

[dada]

In the 21st century, the greatest taboo topic is Money.

It's the lifeblood of the consumer. Naturally a very emotional topic.

I notice that last night, posters were mixing in reports of the market dropping. I guess cnn or whatever was supplying the info, as an indicator of 'consumer confidence.'

The news shows use the numbers in a different way than Wall Street does. Down isn't necessarily a bad thing. Wall Street math is 'Down means buy, up means sell,' that's all.

[2012 Countdown]

In the 21st century, the greatest taboo topic is Money.

It's the lifeblood of the consumer. Naturally a very emotional topic.

I notice that last night, posters were mixing in reports of the market dropping. I guess cnn or whatever was supplying the info, as an indicator of 'consumer confidence.'

The news shows use the numbers in a different way than Wall Street does. Down isn't necessarily a bad thing. Wall Street math is 'Down means buy, up means sell,' that's all.

I resemble that post...that was me and SLAD. Please give me/us credit in that we were not posting it because 'cnn or whatever' was supplying info. Its available on any finance board, 24/7 worldwide markets. Many retirements/pensions hang in the balance. It is newsworthy to some to whom it pertains.

The market seems to have stabilized, but come Feb., take your chances. Risk/reward. I see great risk ahead.

btw, Will the Trumpkin push for Soc Sec. to be privatized? Maybe. Anything goes apparently.

[bks]

I don't have to be more specific because I'm not obligated to participate on your terms. I think you get the message and I note that you too have turned it down a notch since last night's result. Thank you.

I doubt you're referring to me, but maybe you are, since I despise the alt-right types and have said so here. In any event I'll take the bait since I want to get these thoughts out anyway:

1. For some time, I've been very critical of liberals who want to dismiss the racist element of the white working class, not because I disagree they're racist, but because that shouldn't be the last word on the subject. The performance of politically relevant racism waxes and wanes in connection with other social conditions, economic ones obviously being among the most crucial. As I see it, the job of government is to provide a true safety net for all vulnerable populations and if that's done, two things also happen: the racism of the white working class (and other whites) is less likely to become politically activated in a dangerous way, and second, the targets of that racism will be in a better social position to withstand it if it does. In the US, we have a potential shitstorm coming because that racism has been activated with many racial minorities in vulnerable positions.

2. Why not just dismiss the racists in the white working class? It's not because (if we're doing Marx) there's anything inherently noble or magical or revolutionary about them as a historical subject, tbh. It's because they're probably going to be NEEDED if capital is to be displaced. It's that simple. In the US, they have to be part of any coalition that smashes capital and remakes society along more just lines. There's enough evidence from labor history to show that when whites and racial minorities are joined in economic unions, racism can be softened and even overcome as a political obstacle.

3. I will have trouble mustering any sympathy for the wwc members when they're betrayed by the man they helped make president, but who has literally zero human substance: he's a feeling (anger) made into flesh that they've turned into an avatar of their fury. I get the anger. But when he gets to Washington and cuts a deal with their class enemies, which he's very, very likely to do, the new anger they'll feel at his betrayal will be on them. But we'll still need them.

None of this implies "tolerating" their racism or "overlooking" it in coalition-building. It has to be confronted. One way it can follows below.

4. The ultimate irony for me is that despite the hatred the Trumpists have for the elite media, it somehow never has dawned on them that in their fear of ISIS, mooslums and the perceived 'browning' of America, is the direct product of the same media system they claim to despise. They somehow miss that they've had their fears marketed to them (indirectly in some ways, but just as surely) by the elites in "their" media. I don't hear that argument being made, so I do hold out some hope that in the future there'l be room for an intervention into their racism by making that case more carefully.

[Iamwhomiam]

What I'm noticing from this thread is that the tone of vicious, merciless hatred towards the "stupid majority" is suddenly absent in a few of you.

Of course this majority may be misguided. It's really striking how the tone has changed from the murderous hatred some of you used to espouse.

This change of tone is going to encourage the populations who have been targeted by the vicious scorn of vocal, powerful minorities and cliques to keep standing up for themselves, especially as they find the likes of Trump won't solve all their problems.

You'll have to be more specific, I'm not grasping the 'who said what' that you're addressing, or what you're getting at.

I don't have to be more specific because I'm not obligated to participate on your terms...

There's a general rule most people engaged in discussion honor whenever one lodges such charges as you have offered forward, tapitsbo, and that is to be specific, and to cite the source that's led you to your belief, so others can judge its validity.

You should have the courage to stand by your claims and share with us what it is what's charged your emotions. Otherwise, you're just blowing hot air while demonstrating for us your true character, which has been less than honorable in this discussion.

[Morty]

Mark Mason is a socialist/anarchist ecologist college lecturer. If your objective is to criticize liberals, Mark Mason is a handy guy to have around. From Facebook, my bold:

Mark Mason
3 hrs ·

Oh, I had an interesting conversation about the sad, unhappy gay people, women, and blacks and hispanics---- well, one component of the Trump victory was a great, big FUCK YOU to identity politics--- fuck you to your gay marriage license and abortion, and everything else associated with EDUCATED, LIBERAL IDENTITY POLITICS. you got your fucking marriage license and your glass ceiling was broken for women, while millions of working people were thrown out of their jobs and their homes by the Clintons and Obama Democrats--- The vote was a "Fuck You" to smug identity politics that has turned its back on the central problem of the entire planet ---- CORPORATE CAPITALISM, banks robbing the public while comfortable latte-sipping liberals whine about the Mexican border fence, and which bathroom transgender people should use.
===

The message was loud and clear--- we don't give a fuck about your bathroom access if you don't give a fuck that we have been thrown out of our home. Wells Fargo Bank was openly robbing money from its own customers, and what did Clinton do? Nothing. Nada.

The 2016 election is a beautiful, beautiful REALITY CHECK for the liberal sycophants who kiss corporate banking ass, while whining about how Black Lives Matter has been beaten down by the police. --- You have no clue what is going on. "Something is happening here, but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?"

----- SOOOOO, our work now, is not to blame anyone, but to get our asses in gear to organize serious ANTI-CAPITALIST POLITICAL ATTACKS on the BANKs and MIC, not TRUMP. We need to kick some liberal ass out of the way to take on the banks and the military contractors and the entire festering, rotten money system flooding DC. We need to turn the attention away from the border fence and bathrooms, to CAPITALIST ECONOMIC PLUNDER of the working class. We're going to NEED EVERYONE --- gays, blacks, hispanics, women, Muslims and everyone else splintered off into their own narrow personal interests, to BUILD a MASS MOVEMENT unified around CLASS WAR.

[dada]

I resemble that post...that was me and SLAD. Please give me/us credit in that we were not posting it because 'cnn or whatever' was supplying info. Its available on any finance board, 24/7 worldwide markets. Many retirements/pensions hang in the balance. It is newsworthy to some to whom it pertains.

The market seems to have stabilized, but come Feb., take your chances. Risk/reward. I see great risk ahead.

btw, Will the Trumpkin push for Soc Sec. to be privatized? Maybe. Anything goes apparently.

Okay, I guess that was a bit callous of me, sorry about that. I do get it, the retirement/pension thing. It's scary for people in my family that are tied to the market as well.

It's always a risk, though. But what do you do? Put it somewhere more stable? I know it isn't an easy thing to figure out a solution for this.

People's futures depending on the market is a tough subject to broach. As goes Lockheed Martin, so goes the retirement fund. Kind of goes with what Mac was saying. Money is the most sensitive subject.

[dada]

Mark Mason is a socialist/anarchist ecologist college lecturer. If your objective is to criticize liberals, Mark Mason is a handy guy to have around. From

I don't see why we can't be against the military industrial complex, the Donald, and stand up for all races and sexes at the same time.

You know, socialist/anarchists can be sexist. Maybe this guy is just trying to get people angry.

'College lecturer' doesn't mean anything to me.

edited to add: So basically I'm saying he's doing it wrong.