Re: 'Liberals'/'Leftists' in America
Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:58 pm
Liberty and Freedom Are Left-Wing Ideals
What you don't know can't hurt them.
https://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board2/
https://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?t=42168
It seems to me that such people don't care as much about principles as they care about having a willing audience. And in today's Red vs. Bluverse, ...Marionumber1 » 27 Oct 2021 23:27 wrote:So where does this person consider themselves to be? Your principles shouldn't automatically do a flip just because groups who claim (that is a key word, by the way) to share many of your principles turn out to be problematic. Yet I keep seeing this pattern of self-proclaimed former leftists beginning with qualms about the corporate left's rigidity and authoritarianism (generally more on social issues than economic or foreign policy issues) and ending up as full-blown right-wingers on nearly every policy issue; Michael Rectenwald of NYU is one who comes to mind. I have to say that if such principles are that easily reversed, they probably weren't held very strongly to begin with.For most of my life I considered myself to be on the left side of the political spectrum.
Unfortunately, I can't say I disagree. The vast majority of individuals I know who previously considered themselves progressive seem to have summarily decided that lockdowns, mask mandates, and universal vaccine mandates are self-evidently the morally right things to do and worse still that any questioning of the costs and risks vs. benefits of any of these policies is morally reprehensible. There has never been a rational discussion about these policies but instead only a moral imperative to blindly trust in them. Thus, COVID-19 containment efforts have become a quasi-religious issue, and most of the individuals who were once deemed "the left" have now become the equivalent of radical "scientific" fundamentalists who are more than willing to offer up their own children up to a lifetime regimen of mandatory mRNA vaccinations every few months in order to prove their total devotion to their new-formed inflexibly righteous creed.drstrangelove » 06 Nov 2021 13:20 wrote:It's interesting to note that if we accept a binary ideological spectrum, which one does when they feel the need to debate semantics, then every new ideological trend must be categorised alongside every old one, on either the left or the right. So the left and right both become more and more extreme, even if they don't in fact embody that extremism in actuality. However, by viewing each other as more and more extreme, they in fact become more and more extreme in reaction to each other. And the means through which democracy operates, majority view rule with minority view rights, becomes untenable.
Due to majority rule justification and the fact that urban populations are larger than rural ones, the left has been mobilised and radiclised to stomp out the right. And they do so righteously. But what's been created in this process isn't progressive or sociallist, but a Scientific Caliphate.
The issue as I see it these days is no longer political, but philosophical. Between those who believe scientific reductionism/specialisation can make human institutions omnipotent, and those that reject this premise.
It really is a tragedy that within the course of a decade the left has seen its last great hope in Bernie Sanders be snuffed out and replaced by the spiritual legacy of men like Josef Mengele and Shiro Ishii. Which is to say, the quest for unbounding knowledge in all absence of ethical consideration.

The post 9/11 period?Belligerent Savant » Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:58 pm wrote:(yes, a similar argument can be made for those on the 'Right'. But when has the conditioning of the 'Right' ever caused such sheer devastation to lives and livelihoods over a ~20 month period? There is no precedent to this in the U.S. Nothing comes remotely close.)
I was there. And, at least in the USA, the Clinton/Biden supporter wing of the Democratic party wholly supported it. RIP Paul Wellstone.Marionumber1 » 13 Nov 2021 01:23 wrote:The post 9/11 period?Belligerent Savant » Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:58 pm wrote:(yes, a similar argument can be made for those on the 'Right'. But when has the conditioning of the 'Right' ever caused such sheer devastation to lives and livelihoods over a ~20 month period? There is no precedent to this in the U.S. Nothing comes remotely close.)
I don't think this can be downplayed in the post-9/11 landscape, considering how those who dared oppose the warfare state in the Bush era were often labeled as unpatriotic or even outright traitors/terrorist sympathizers. (To stickdog's point, there were obviously self-identified Democrats onboard, but any semblance of an actual left was not.) A ton of the right-wing rhetoric back then was absolutely disgusting and a mirror of how those who oppose the COVID narrative get treated today.Belligerent Savant » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:38 pm wrote:the manner in which the people have submitted themselves to the propaganda and conditioning, which, in contrast to the post-9/11 years, is trained not on an external/foreign enemy, but instead on labeled enemies among us.
More or less that. I'm certainly under no illusions about the severity of what happened after 9/11.A "left" that justifies oppression antithetical to its principles in the name of public health and a "right" that carved out one reasonable line in the sand while changing nothing else about itself