Page 33 of 95

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:17 pm
by Plutonia
JR:
unsubstantiated speculation about Assange and Wikileaks after the next are diverting from both, the exposures through the cables of high crimes by many states and officials, and from a frontal, significant and generalizable assault by empire on our freedoms of the press and Internet.
Actually I think it's equally instructive in it's real-time demonstration of the US's usually cloaked repressive mentality.

But, let me introduce another aspect that doesn't seem to have been considered:

Economists understand very well that privileged information in the hands of a few "experts" translated directly into power and financial advantage. George Akerlof, Michael Spence, and Joseph E. Stiglitz won a Nobel prize in 2001 for their work in this area.

The book (and now film) Freakonomics by "rogue" economist Steven Levitt and NYT journalist Stephen J. Dubner, offers us an interesting and surprising example of how information asymmetry works and how it can be countered- by getting the right information into the right hands. Summarized here:
Chapter 2: How is the Ku Klux Klan like a Group of Real-Estate Agents?

The authors assert that information asymmetry is one of the most powerful economic tools. Entire industries have flourished and many significant historical events have transpired as the result of an imbalance in the flow of information. In keeping with this theory, the authors offer the story of a man who helped cripple the racist Ku Klux Klan simply by widely disseminating their secrets.

Stetson Kennedy infiltrated the group in the World War II-era and systematically documented the secret rituals and codes of the organization. Kennedy then supplied the records to Hollywood writers, who used the information to create a long-running story arc on the wildly popular Superman radio serial. Children across the United States imitated the shows in their schoolyard games, and gradually, the mystery, grandeur, and influence of the group were profoundly diminished.
That is, a single individual brought down the KKK at perhaps the height of it's power by giving it's secret handshake and code-words to children. Neat-o.

According to wiki Information Asymmetry :
... deals with the study of decisions in transactions where one party has more or better information than the other. This creates an imbalance of power in transactions which can sometimes cause the transactions to go awry. Examples of this problem are adverse selection and moral hazard. ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry
And moral hazard is:
...when a party insulated from risk behaves differently than it would behave if it were fully exposed to the risk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard
Are you getting the picture?

Here's one last bit that shouldn't come as any surprise:
...Although information asymmetry has recently been noted to be on the decline with the rise of the internet, which allows ignorant users to acquire hitherto unavailable information...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informatio ... #Screening
By this measure, the US State Department has lost real economic and coercive power as a result of Cablegate.

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:32 pm
by Elvis
Plutonia wrote:
Economists understand very well that privileged information in the hands of a few "experts" translated directly into power and financial advantage.
Thanks, very good point to bring up. For years I've been saying (not here until now, I think) that one key motive for all the spying and surveillance---and the concomitant secrecy surrounding it---is access to business secrets. Think about it.

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:36 pm
by Ben D
I guess I'm a realist, if Assange/Wikileaks turns out to be truly acting against the imperial power's interests, then it would naturally follow that he will be made to suffer horribly, this is just the way it is,..reality. That's why I'm still undecided about Wikileaks being the real deal, and will probably remain so until and unless I see Assange and Wikileaks really taken to task,..with severe prejudice.

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:51 pm
by JackRiddler
justdrew reposted above the map of the US showing that an amazing number of Google search requests for "Wikileaks" are coming from the Spook Central Counties in Virginia. Presumably they're delving into everything they can to see what cables are being published and where, and who's saying what about the cables and the surrounding affair.

So besides that every keystroke is logged in some supercomputer, someone from there at some point may get around to reading this, yes even page 33 of this thread. Not out of personal curiosity, but as paid work.

Maybe amused by some of the stuff here. Doubtless bored and drowsy, for the most part. Maybe noting shit that remotely fits the criteria of whatever they think matters to note. Possibly with the object of learning things about each of us as though this discussion, in itself, is cause for surveillance.

Therefore I'd like to address any such special readers of this thread:

Shame on you.

Shame on you.

Why are you here? On what authority? To what end? What are the consequences of your actions?

The least you could do is to get up from your machine, walk out the building, and never walk back in. That would be your minimum patriotic duty. Discover that you are a sovereign, not as a spy on the souls of others, but as one of We the people.

.

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:55 pm
by JackRiddler
Ben D wrote:I guess I'm a realist, if Assange/Wikileaks turns out to be truly acting against the imperial power's interests, then it would naturally follow that he will be made to suffer horribly, this is just the way it is,..reality. That's why I'm still undecided about Wikileaks being the real deal, and will probably remain so until and unless I see Assange and Wikileaks really taken to task,..with severe prejudice.
This one has been called "You're not dead yet, therefore you are enemy."

For fun, why not imagine all the historical leaders you could name to whom this might have been falsely applied.

So once Assange gets a public hanging, we can all be satisfied that he was in some part real (except maybe Alice, and those who will argue it was a double that hanged). This is a meme not of realism but of helplessness.

.

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:06 pm
by barracuda
Ben D wrote:I guess I'm a realist, if Assange/Wikileaks turns out to be truly acting against the imperial power's interests, then it would naturally follow that he will be made to suffer horribly, this is just the way it is,..reality. That's why I'm still undecided about Wikileaks being the real deal, and will probably remain so until and unless I see Assange and Wikileaks really taken to task,..with severe prejudice.
Image

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:22 pm
by barracuda
AlicetheKurious wrote: The Israelis are so utterly divorced from reality that they think, "Now that it's all in the open, those Arab "leaders" will be forced to finally say in public what they've been saying in private!" They have no clue...

If that was the plan, as I suspect it was, it will backfire big-time and even further de-legitimize these regimes and put them very much on the defensive...
So, if the cables produce an effect which is essentially positve for Israel ("Arab "leaders" will be forced to finally say in public what they've been saying in private"), this is evidence of their Israeli genesis, and if the cables produce an effect which is essentially negative for Israel ("Arab leaders will now feel under pressure to prove that they are not the weak sycophants and hypocrites"), this is still evidence of their Israeli genesis, but with the understanding that the "plan" has backfired.

I had thought the evidence that the cables had an Israeli genesis was originally specifically that they had produced an effect which was essentially positive for Israel, whereas now it appears that was not really the case, and the real evidence for Israeli involvement was something else entirely, virtually the diametric opposite of the original set of evidence, or maybe some unknown third thing.

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:04 pm
by Ben D
I note and understand your present views Cuda and JR, hopefully unfolding events will bring greater clarity. :)

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:38 pm
by Plutonia
Here's a map that might help clarify some things:

Image

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:43 pm
by JackRiddler
Iceland takes on credit card giants in WikiLeaks flap
Posted Dec 12, 2010 by ■ Martin Laine

Representatives from Mastercard and Visa were called before a parliamentary committee to explain the credit companies’ refusal to process donations to the whistle-blowing website WikiLeaks.

“People wanted to know on what legal grounds the ban was taken, but no one could answer it,” said Robert Marshall, chairman of Iceland’s allsherjanefnd, according to the Reykjavik Grapevine.

Vidar Thorkelsson, CEO of Valitor, which operates Visa and Mastercard in Iceland, said the Icelandic branch had nothing to do with the decision.

Meanwhile, DataCell, the Icelandic-Swiss web host is reporting that donations to Wikileaks have increased in recent days, despite the actions of Mastercard and Visa. The web host has been processing direct bank transfers to help facilitate the donations.

“The credit card companies are just not a part of the transfers,” said Olafur V. Sigurvinsson, a co-founder of DataCell, in an article on the website IceNews.is.Sigurvinsson went on to say people are upset over the credit card companies’ heavy-handed approach.

“It is simply a human rights organization with freedom of speech at its core and there are lots of people who have Visa cards and want to spend their money supporting exactly this issue. It is understandably irritating when some credit card company somewhere decides what you are allowed to spend your money on. Will they ban us from buying chocolate next?” Sigurvinsson said.

The company is planning legal action against the credit card giants, and Sigurvinsson said that several lawyers have stepped forward offering their services for free.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/301340

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:53 pm
by JackRiddler
Tom Hayden, a more 'real' Sixties icon than Todd Gitlin wrote:The Lynch-Mob Moment
Wednesday, December 8, 2010 at 9:15AM

SNIP

This is a lynch-mob moment, when the bloodlust runs over. We have this mad overreaction many times since the witch-burnings and Jim Crow, including the Palmer Raids of the 1920s, the McCarthy purges of the 1950s, the Nixon-era conspiracy trials, the Watergate break-ins, and the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11.

Most Americans now know that those frenzied periods of scapegoating did nothing for our security, which instead damaged our democracy and left in their wake a secretive National Security State.

There is wisdom in expecting calmer heads to prevail in the WikiLeaks matter, but what can be done when the calmer heads are going nuts or hiding in silence?

Do the frothing pundits remember that we have a legal system in which the accused is entitled to due process, legal representation and the right to a defense? The first obligation of our threatened elected officials, bureaucrats and pundits is to calm down.

No one has died as a result of the WikiLeaks disclosures. But the escalation by the prosecutors in this case could lead to an escalation, with more sensitive documents being released in a retaliatory spiral of this first cyber-war. Imprisoning the messenger will amplify his message and further threats of execution.

I can understand the reasonable questions that reasonable people have about this case. It is clearly illegal to release and distribute the 15,652 documents stamped as “secret.” Why should underground whistleblowers have the unlimited right to release those documents? There is a risk that some individuals might be harmed by the release. There is a concern that ordinary diplomatic business might be interrupted.

All fair, these concerns have to be weighed against two considerations, it seems to me. First, how important is the content of the documents? And how serious is the secrecy system in preventing our right to know more about the policies – especially wars – being carried out in our name? And finally, is there a reasonable alternative to letting the secrets mount, such as pursuing the “transparency” agenda, which the White House purports to support?

Let me weigh these questions with regard to the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and the “Long War” scenario that has occupied my full attention these past nine years.

It will be remembered that the Iraq War was based on fabricated evidence by U.S. and British intelligence services, the Bush-Cheney White House, and even the New York Times through the deceptive reporting of Judith Miller. The leading television media invited top military officials to provide the nightly narrative of the war lest there be any doubts in the mesmerized audience. Secrecy and false narratives were crucial to the invasions, special operations, renditions, tortures, and mass detentions that plunged us into the quagmires where we now are stranded. The secret-keepers were incompetent to protect our national security, even when cables warned of an imminent attack by hijacked airliners.

The secrecy grew like a cancer on democracy. Earlier this year, the Washington Post reported in “Top Secret America” that there were 854,000 people with top-security clearances. That was the tip of the iceberg. The number of new secrets rose 75% between 1996 and 2009, to 183, 224; the number of documents using those secrets has exploded from 5.6 million in 1996 to 54.6 million last year. The secrecy cult appears uncontrollable: the Clinton executive order 12958 [1995] gave only twenty officials the power to stamp documents top-secret, but those twenty could delegate the power to 1,336 others, while a “derivative” procedure extended the power to three million more officials and contractors. [Time, Dec. 13, 2010]

The 1917 U.S. espionage statute requires that Assange received secret documents and willfully, with bad faith, intended to harm the United States by releasing “national defense information.” That’s a tough standard. Perhaps in order to close what U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder describes as “gaps in our laws”, the State Department on Saturday sent a letter demanding that Assange cease the releases, return all classified documents and destroy any records on WikiLeaks databases.

These are difficult legal hurdles for the Justice Department under the First Amendment, but, according to a source close to the defense with experience in such cases, it seems clear that the U.S. government will prosecute Assange with every tool at their disposal, perhaps even rendition.

"What President Obama needs is a photo of Assange in chains brought into a federal court," the source said.

This week the Assange defense team will appeal the London court’s decision to deny bail. If that fails, he will appear in court December 14 to face extradition to Sweden.

Assange has the right to appeal an extradition order to the European Court of Human Rights.

He has a very strong base of support in London where public anger over the fabrications that led to war still runs high. An extradition fight in London could carry on for weeks, providing an important platform for the defense. Or the UK government could take the risk of an accelerated emergency deportation process to send him to Stockholm, or even the U.S. in the most extreme scenario.

If Assange winds up in Stockholm, it could take several weeks to fight his way through a bizarre and complicated sexual harassment trial. Anything is possible there, from all charges being dropped, to the finding of a technical infraction, to jail time. Or Sweden could make an emergency finding to extradite him straight to the US, risking an adverse public reaction for serving as to a handmaiden of the Pentagon.

In the atmosphere of hysteria ahead, it is important for peace and justice advocates to remember and share what Americans owe to Julian Assange and WikiLeaks.

- WikiLeaks disclosed 390,136 classified documents about the Iraq War and 76,607 about Afghanistan so far. No one died as a result of these disclosures, one of which revealed another 15,000 civilian casualties in Iraq which had not been acknowledged or reported before;
- Fragmentary orders [FRAGO] 242 and 039 instructed American troops not to investigate torture in Iraq conducted by America’s allies;
- The CIA operates a secret army of 3,000 in Afghanistan;
- A secret US Task Force 373 is assigned to nighttime hunter-killer raids in Afghanistan;
- The US ambassador in Kabul says it is impossible to fix corruption when our ally is the corrupt entity;
- One Afghan minister alone carried $52 million out of the country;
- US Special Forces operate in Pakistan without public acknowledgement, apparently in violation of that country’s sovereignty;
- America’s ally, Pakistan, is the chief protector of the Taliban in Afghanistan.
- Following secret U.S air strikes against suspected al-Qaeda militants, Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh told General David Petraeus, "We'll continue saying the bombs are ours, not yours."
- U.S. government contractor DynCorp threw a party for Afghan security recruits featuring trafficked boys as the entertainment. Bacha bazi is the Afghan tradition of "boy play" where young boys are dressed up in women's clothing, forced to dance for leering men, and then sold for sex to the highest bidder. DynCorp has been previously linked to child sex trafficking charges.

The secretive wars exposed by WikiLeaks will cost $159.3 billion in the coming fiscal year, and several trillion dollars since 2001. The American death toll in Afghanistan will reach 500 this year, or fifty per month, for a total of 1,423, and 9,583 wounded overall -- over half of the wounded during this year alone. The Iraq War has left 4,430 U.S. soldiers dead and 32,000 wounded as of today. The civilian casualties are ignored, but range in the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, Afghans, and Pakistanis.

Is it possible that Julian Assange is the scapegoat for arrogant American officials who would rather point the fingers of blame than see the blood on their own hands? What else can explain their frenzy to see Assange dead?

It may be too late to prevent an escalation. The lynch-mob is rabid, terrorized by what they cannot control, completely out of balance, at their most dangerous. If they realize their darkest desires, they will make Assange a martyr – a “warrior for openness” – in the new age now beginning. A legion of hackers are fingering their Send buttons in response, and who can say what flood they may release?

The trial of Julian Assange is becoming a trial of secrecy itself. Wherever the line is drawn, secrecy has become the mask of power, and without new rules, the revolt of the hackers will continue.

From http://tomhayden.com/home/the-lynch-mob-moment.html

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:22 am
by nathan28
barracuda wrote: Image

omg didnt u see Zeitgeist? u just sited teh BIGGEST PSYOP OF TEH ALL TIME. no wonder all the "rigorous" left teh "intuition" you should lern more about teh Deep Statez.


etc.

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:58 am
by nathan28
Plutonia wrote:
Chapter 2: How is the Ku Klux Klan like a Group of Real-Estate Agents?

The authors assert that information asymmetry is one of the most powerful economic tools. Entire industries have flourished and many significant historical events have transpired as the result of an imbalance in the flow of information. In keeping with this theory, the authors offer the story of a man who helped cripple the racist Ku Klux Klan simply by widely disseminating their secrets.

Stetson Kennedy infiltrated the group in the World War II-era and systematically documented the secret rituals and codes of the organization. Kennedy then supplied the records to Hollywood writers, who used the information to create a long-running story arc on the wildly popular Superman radio serial. Children across the United States imitated the shows in their schoolyard games, and gradually, the mystery, grandeur, and influence of the group were profoundly diminished.
That is, a single individual brought down the KKK at perhaps the height of it's power by giving it's secret handshake and code-words to children. Neat-o.

It's off-topic, but that's so wildly inaccurate and so historically lazy a representation that only the Freakonomics guys could have made it. To start KKK membership had declined dramatically well before Kennedy's infiltration. To cite another issue, by WWII anti-Catholic and on edit anti-Jewish sentiment had declined dramatically--fascism, not immigration of Irish, Italians and Jews, had taken center stage. These are not the only problems with the Freakonomics Bourgie Bedtime Stories. The KKK was active and prominent later in the century, killing people into the late 1970s when their membership rosters were a fraction what they once were; arguably the remaining KKKers were far, far more violent than they were in the 1920s and early 1930s. I'm not sure it matters that your "mystery" and "grandeur" are gone when you can bomb churches with relative impunity. Again, it is a woefully lazy suggestion they make there, and on edit a fairly offensive one since there are still plenty of neighborhoods across the American South where you can find people who remember living through that.

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:36 am
by AhabsOtherLeg
Montag wrote: If you don't know that the New York Times is in lockstep with the U.S. State Department, then I don't know what to tell you.
I do know that. That's why I said:
AhabsOtherLeg wrote: Are you just making the point that believing stories from the NYT or WaPo or Guardian is the same as believing a propaganda rag like Pravda? If so, I agree.
If you don't know what Pravda is, and has always been, then I don't know what to tell you either. I don't want to go on a lengthy derail about it, but Pravda was founded by the Bolsheviks, and after the revolution it published nothing but the officialy-sanctioned opinions of the Central Committe and KGB for 75 years. When it was privatised, and split up into various parts, Pravda Online was the part that kept all the old journalists, the ones who'd been lying all those years. They are as loyal now to Putin and the FSB as they once were to the Central Comittee and KGB, and they're still telling the same old lies, but now with a sensationalist tabloid spin.

Apart from that, the article is full of errors - the joint task force around Somalia is far from being the largest naval force ever assembled - and it's one real source, apart from Wikipedia, is Sorcha Faal (probably aka David Booth), a hoax-artist and liar of long standing.

There have been threads here about Sorcha Faal/David Booth in the past. She/he is widely believed to be disinfo, a psy-op agent, likely a zionist one at that. Personally, I think she/it is just a crank, out for cash. Check out the website linked to as a primary source in the Pravda article, and look at some of the other articles on Faal's WhatDoesItMean.com
Montag wrote: I think Al Jazeera is about the most credible of all of them.


Yeah, I love English language Al Jazeera. I was surprised to see that Alice is suspicious of it, but I admit I haven't looked deep into it's background or funding. It always seemed reliable to me, but there might be more to know. There usually is, sadly.
Montag wrote:I find dismissing entire publications to be not useful. Unless you can examine a particular piece see what the claims are, and if any of them can be corroborated at all. If you just read the papers that have been parasitized by CIA/MI6/Mossad etc. I don't see how you can really understand what's happening in the world.
I'm not saying you shouldn't read Pravda, or link to articles in it. Good stuff has come out of it in the past. But I did examine the claims and look for corroboration of the Magnetic Vortex article, and that's how I know it's bullshit.

I'm not a subscriber to the NYT or WaPo or Guardian, btw. They're all shit, in varying degrees. I didn't know before reading some of the articles posted here that the Washington Post had devolved into a complete joke, though. It's sad.

Didn't mean for this post to be so long. It's off-topic anyway. Carry on everybody.

Re: The Wikileaks Question

Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:53 am
by AlicetheKurious
barracuda wrote:
AlicetheKurious wrote: The Israelis are so utterly divorced from reality that they think, "Now that it's all in the open, those Arab "leaders" will be forced to finally say in public what they've been saying in private!" They have no clue...

If that was the plan, as I suspect it was, it will backfire big-time and even further de-legitimize these regimes and put them very much on the defensive...
So, if the cables produce an effect which is essentially positve for Israel ("Arab "leaders" will be forced to finally say in public what they've been saying in private"), this is evidence of their Israeli genesis, and if the cables produce an effect which is essentially negative for Israel ("Arab leaders will now feel under pressure to prove that they are not the weak sycophants and hypocrites"), this is still evidence of their Israeli genesis, but with the understanding that the "plan" has backfired.

I had thought the evidence that the cables had an Israeli genesis was originally specifically that they had produced an effect which was essentially positive for Israel, whereas now it appears that was not really the case, and the real evidence for Israeli involvement was something else entirely, virtually the diametric opposite of the original set of evidence, or maybe some unknown third thing.
Barracuda, these are the Israelis we're talking about here: you know, the ones that always seem to be taken by surprise by global outrage against their crimes? Even after Cast Lead, and their cold-blooded siege of Gaza, they seem genuinely puzzled by the hostility their officials keep encountering, not only among members of the general public, but even in private meetings with some of their counterparts abroad. Even after the Mavi Marmara they apparently assumed it would be business as usual with their Turkish 'friends'. Confounding their predictions, the Palestinians are far from being broken nor have the new generations "forgotten" as the Israelis believed they would. The Lebanese have not obligingly torn their country to pieces despite the zionists' best efforts, and the Resistance only grows stronger with each Israeli plot to destroy it. Israeli hasbaratchiks have been caught unprepared by the expanding BDS movement and their inability to impose their monolithic and solipsistic narrative on the internet and on college campuses and even, despite a formidable system of indoctrination and recruitment, within the new generation of American Jews. That's what happens when you live in the rarefied world of self-serving propaganda and enjoy a massive power imbalance with all but a few select co-conspirators who say only what you want to hear and do only what you want them to do. The reason why they are so wrong so often when it comes to predicting how normal people are likely to react, is that, as in any calculation, "garbage in, garbage out". The logical and moral assumptions on which zionism is based, are simply not shared by most rational and decent people. To the extent that these logical and moral assumptions are exposed to the harsh light of day, zionists will find themselves even more isolated and they probably still won't understand why.

Given the context of so many serious miscalculations and misreadings by the Israelis, the yawning gap between how they perceive themselves and how others perceive them, it is not surprising that they would yet again be so very mistaken in predicting the consequences of "outing" their "allies". If this latest scheme indeed backfires to the extent I hope and believe it will, this will fit right in with the mounting pile of similar failed predictions.