rigorousintuition.ca

coffin_dodger » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:15 am wrote: And therein lies yet another fallacy - that we have risen above the 'animals' - giving us carte blanche to treat them as inferior - when we have, in fact, quite clearly not.

Does re-stating my point really constitute exposing a fallacy?



Still, best to focus this thread on the more meaningful implications of the OP: whether or not stupid people deserve to be in jail.

DrEvil » Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:55 pm wrote:
There is a correlation between IQ and success in life, so yes actually, stupidity is a contributing factor to poverty. Not the only factor, by far, but one of them.

Poverty has robustly proven effects on the brain and body, all of which are fairly horrendous. I'm assuming you already know that, if not I can send you a bunch of links.

"Contributing factor" implies no causality, merely correlation. You're not standing on much, which is probably why nobody is bringing much to the table except bafflement at your glib detachment.

Searcher08 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:21 pm wrote:

DrEvil » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:55 pm wrote:

MacCruiskeen » Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:17 pm wrote:

DrEvil wrote:prisons are full of dumb people, not because we as a society want to lock them up (as a distinct group), but because dumb people do dumb shit

That is a deeply stupid argument. You should be locked up for it.

If I point out that that prisons are (and always have been) full of poor people, will you then contend that this proves poverty is caused by stupidity?

There is a correlation between IQ and success in life, so yes actually, stupidity is a contributing factor to poverty. Not the only factor, by far, but one of them.

You are really sounding to me like someone straight outta JREF, just bursting with the righteousness of your own position. Are you a pseudoskeptic? I noticed that you did not comment on any aspect of my post that distinguished IQ and practical thinking skills. Why not? Are you afraid to go down there?

Start with detailing the specific sensory-based criteria that are associated with the phrase 'success in life'. Because frankly, I think you just pulled that phrase out of your posterior.

If having an opinion is the same as busting with righteousness, then yes - guilty as charged.

And sure, people can have great practical thinking skills without having a blazing IQ. There's always exceptions, but the trend is pretty clear to me. If I'm wrong, please explain why.

You can start here (It's got sources and everything):
http://psychology.about.com/od/intellig ... uccess.htm

...
So what's the bottom line?

The results of Terman's longitudinal study of gifted children suggest that IQ can play an important role in determining life success; but high IQ alone is not enough. Variables such as family background, socioeconomic status, and educational experiences as well as personality factors including motivation, willingness to work hard, being committed to goals, creativity, and emotional maturity are also strongly linked to success in life.
...

What's a 'sensory-based criteria'?

Wombaticus Rex » Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:12 am wrote:

DrEvil » Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:55 pm wrote:
There is a correlation between IQ and success in life, so yes actually, stupidity is a contributing factor to poverty. Not the only factor, by far, but one of them.

Poverty has robustly proven effects on the brain and body, all of which are fairly horrendous. I'm assuming you already know that, if not I can send you a bunch of links.

"Contributing factor" implies no causality, merely correlation. You're not standing on much, which is probably why nobody is bringing much to the table except bafflement at your glib detachment.

Good point, poverty reduces your average IQ by 13 points (http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/arch ... topstories), so I got that the wrong way around.

But regardless of how people end up with low IQ, once they're there they are still more likely to go to jail and/or remain in poverty. It's a self-perpetuating cycle. If we could eradicate poverty we would probably "eradicate" a lot of stupid people too (as in: they're not stupid anymore).

That said - I still think that if you take a group of genuinely low IQ people (not from external factors), they would be more likely to end up in poverty or jail. But that's just my glib opinion.

In the olden days, or so I'm told, some oldskool people used to do totally dumbass things like stealing food -- even though they knew they could lose an eye or a hand or their LIFE for it! And yet they still stole!! Stuff as cheap as food!!! Or they like poached and stuff!!!! WTF???

What could possibly explain such deficiency in basic life-skills? Didn't they understand that actions have consquences? They must have been genetically deficient.

DrEvil » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:00 pm wrote:
What's a 'sensory-based criteria'?

Probably has to do with Autism for which various sensory processing difficulties are common. Also, the IQ test fails completely in the case of Autistics because it's not uncommon for a Autist to be assessed as very low IQ and highly intelligent at the same time. And I'm not talking idiot savants.

Autistic autism researcher Michelle Dawson has been an active challenging of IQ conventions - pdf:
http://autismodiario.org/wp-content/upl ... igence.pdf

Also, people who have been abused and traumatized (not autistics in particular) tend to not be able to think clearly:
http://www.asca.org.au/about/resources/ ... brain.aspx

Quick drivethru in a moment of madness...

strange thread, stranger title, wild segues, pretty much meaningless...

sound and fury...

spiders on LSD...
So what's new...

Of course it depends on the particular conspiracy theory, whether or not it's a sign of sane thinking...

speaking of which...

Anyone heard of the Metallurgical International aka Metallgesellschaft of Frankfurt aka...?

Carry on...

In my experience, perspective is an equally valuable tool as intelligence.

Intelligence: the ability to solve problems.

Perspective: the ability to grasp "the larger picture".

These qualities are not dependent upon one another. I've run into many intelligent people who lack perspective, they're exactly the types of "intelligentsia" that become debunkers and defenders of institutions and power structures. Or Republicans for shorthand

I think this observation illustrates the idea that people of equal intelligence can believe very different things, based largely upon their perspective.

It seems that the skills associated with intelligence can be taught, whereas perspective comes only from personal experience.

MacCruiskeen » Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:16 am wrote:In the olden days, or so I'm told, some oldskool people used to do totally dumbass things like stealing food -- even though they knew they could lose an eye or a hand or their LIFE for it! And yet they still stole!! Stuff as cheap as food!!! Or they like poached and stuff!!!! WTF???

What could possibly explain such deficiency in basic life-skills? Didn't they understand that actions have consquences? They must have been genetically deficient.

Or desperate. Smart people do stupid stuff too.

Plutonia » Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:36 am wrote:

DrEvil » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:00 pm wrote:
What's a 'sensory-based criteria'?

Probably has to do with Autism for which various sensory processing difficulties are common. Also, the IQ test fails completely in the case of Autistics because it's not uncommon for a Autist to be assessed as very low IQ and highly intelligent at the same time. And I'm not talking idiot savants.

Autistic autism researcher Michelle Dawson has been an active challenging of IQ conventions - pdf:
http://autismodiario.org/wp-content/upl ... igence.pdf

Also, people who have been abused and traumatized (not autistics in particular) tend to not be able to think clearly:
http://www.asca.org.au/about/resources/ ... brain.aspx

Ah, ok. Thanks

As an aside, I'm not on the autism spectrum (that I know of), but I do lack the ability to pick up on non-verbal ques in conversation. If people don't tell me exactly what they're thinking I usually have no clue, which I guess can come across as (as Wombat put it) glib detachment.
It's the reason I get mad when people start insinuating things or giving vague explanations.
I value honesty over pretty much anything else in a person, whether I agree with them or not.

Plutonia - that was interesting - I had meant them in the NLP sense.

A sensory-based criteria means one that is described in sensory-based (Visual, Auditory, Kino, Olfactory, Gustatory) language.

For example - how do you know someone is kind?

Person A -
I listen to them on the phone to their friends cheering them up.
I hear laughter from the other end of the phone

Person B
I see them hugging an old person
I watch them help old people across the road
I look at the old person smiling

Person A may not have their kindness criteria met by someone who meets Person B's

DrEvil » Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:00 pm wrote:

Searcher08 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:21 pm wrote:

DrEvil » Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:55 pm wrote:

MacCruiskeen » Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:17 pm wrote:

DrEvil wrote:prisons are full of dumb people, not because we as a society want to lock them up (as a distinct group), but because dumb people do dumb shit

That is a deeply stupid argument. You should be locked up for it.

If I point out that that prisons are (and always have been) full of poor people, will you then contend that this proves poverty is caused by stupidity?

There is a correlation between IQ and success in life, so yes actually, stupidity is a contributing factor to poverty. Not the only factor, by far, but one of them.

You are really sounding to me like someone straight outta JREF, just bursting with the righteousness of your own position. Are you a pseudoskeptic? I noticed that you did not comment on any aspect of my post that distinguished IQ and practical thinking skills. Why not? Are you afraid to go down there?

Start with detailing the specific sensory-based criteria that are associated with the phrase 'success in life'. Because frankly, I think you just pulled that phrase out of your posterior.

If having an opinion is the same as busting with righteousness, then yes - guilty as charged.

And sure, people can have great practical thinking skills without having a blazing IQ. There's always exceptions, but the trend is pretty clear to me. If I'm wrong, please explain why.

You can start here (It's got sources and everything):
http://psychology.about.com/od/intellig ... uccess.htm

...
So what's the bottom line?

The results of Terman's longitudinal study of gifted children suggest that IQ can play an important role in determining life success; but high IQ alone is not enough. Variables such as family background, socioeconomic status, and educational experiences as well as personality factors including motivation, willingness to work hard, being committed to goals, creativity, and emotional maturity are also strongly linked to success in life.
...

What's a 'sensory-based criteria'?

Wombaticus Rex » Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:12 pm wrote:

DrEvil » Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:55 pm wrote:
There is a correlation between IQ and success in life, so yes actually, stupidity is a contributing factor to poverty. Not the only factor, by far, but one of them.

Poverty has robustly proven effects on the brain and body, all of which are fairly horrendous. I'm assuming you already know that, if not I can send you a bunch of links.

"Contributing factor" implies no causality, merely correlation. You're not standing on much, which is probably why nobody is bringing much to the table except bafflement at your glib detachment.

Patently absurd.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 49920.html

Virus that 'makes humans more stupid' discovered

British politician & former Lord Chancellor, Jack Straw, has been quoted in parliament (in Match 2010) as saying:

“Unless we all start to believe in conspiracy theories and that the officials are lying, that I am lying, that behind this there is some kind of secret state which is in league with some dark forces in the United States… there simply is no truth in the claims that the United Kingdom had been involved in rendition.”

Thing is though, the United Kingdom HAD been involved in rendition.

- CIA rendition flights used British airports at least 210 times.
- The British territory Diego Garcia was used as a stopover for CIA flights taking detainees to secret prisons around the world.
- MI5 and MI6 officers carried out around 100 interrogations at Guantánamo Bay between 2002 and 2004.


So we have it on record from a British politician that ...there is some kind of secret state which is in league with some dark forces in the United States...................

Virus that 'makes humans more stupid' discovered

Obviously, those hungry, stupid, poor people will swallow anything to survive.