rigorousintuition.ca

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I started to write as soon as the shooting started. We were gathered in the big room talking about the bombing in Oslo, later we went to the canteen and saw people running. No-one said anything, they were just running. Then I heard shots, first one then a lot. We ran through the woods and came to the water's edge. Everybody had mobiles and they were phoning the police and families but couldn't get through. We heard the shots receding and thought they were on the other side of the island, so we lay down in the grass and hoped for the best. I said we had to keep quiet and scatter.

I ran alone at first, then Åse joined me. We found a friend and another came so we were four. We hid in a rock, or we tried. The gunman could have approached us from either side, we couldn't see anything.

It felt like hours but it must have been minutes. The text messages started coming in. "Where are you? are you hiding? I love you . . ". A message came in from my friend Pernille, "he's shooting at the door, there are 30 of us hiding, are you ok?". I answered as briefly as I could: "are there several shooting? is he coming in to your room? we are hiding but not safe". Then I got a description and heard he was coming towards us.

I put my hands together and prayed to God and tried to keep the others calm. Then I sent a message to the AUF leader and heard he was all right, and when I asked "what should we do?", I got the short answer: "swim out". We decided to swim.

I went down to the water first and saw someone lying with his head in the water. I lifted him and laid him down on the ground and saw a shot in his head but had no time to react. I kissed him on the cheek and saw it was someone I knew. I went back up and saw some others hiding, and told them I had spoken to the leader and he had said to swim. I told the girls to take identification with them.

Everyone knew it was difficult to swim with clothes and they started undressing. Before I started swimming I sent a text to mum, dad, little brother and my best friend Robin. I started swimming first and saw people following. It was cold, I heard bullets coming towards me and focussed on keeping my head above water. I heard people shouting in panic, I shouted, "keep your head up, swim out, breathe!", then I lay on my back and looked back and saw the gunman. He was in uniform with white skin and blond hair, I saw the gun and I saw him take aim. Bang, someone in front of me was shot, I saw blood streaming out and tried to swim faster. I lay on my back again and saw him shooting at people who hadn't come into the water.

I saw a friend jump out, and in a second he was shot. From a distance I could see two shots straight into his head. I saw his head explode and break apart. I tried to shout "swim" but there was so much noise. A helicopter was over us.

I swam on my front again and felt panic, and felt the water starting to take me. I felt pain and was breathing too quickly. Then I heard a shout: "Emma, I'm going down!" behind me from a friend. I gritted my teeth and swam back and said to her, "breathe. Breathe for me and you, I'm on the way". I took her on my shoulders and told her to swim with her legs. We swam together. I breathed carefully and said to myself, "one stroke for mum, one for dad, one for little brother, one for Robin". They were all waiting for me on land, I told myself. I was talking to my friend, when suddenly she said, "Emma, you are bleeding in the arm" and I saw blood from my left arm. I tried to focus on swimming - I understood why my arm was hurting but didn't want to stop.

Behind me I heard more shots and screams, I heard the gunman laughing and he shouted after us, "you won't get far". Then my friend said that she could swim by herself, she swam beside me. It felt like several hours but it must have been minutes.

A boy came swimming beside me. I said, "you are small, you are swimming well". He said, "dad is dead", and I said, "don't look back, swim for dad, you're going well". Then we saw a boat. Everyone shouted, "thank God", as we swam towards the boat. I waved and shouted, "over here!". I said to my friend and the boy that I would go first in case the boat was part of the attack. We couldn't trust anyone! The man who lifted me out said, "you're safe!". He hugged me and asked if there were more. We went over to my friend and the young boy, and I said, "come on, it's safe". There were several people already in the boat, all crying and screaming.

MacCruiskeen wrote:Stickdog, thanks very much for sticking with the delayed response so persistently, despite vk's shameful and timewasting one-line disruption efforts, not to mention barracuda's Dorian-Grayish complaints of being "bored" and his stern headmasterly avowals that this is "not a productive line of inquiry".

...

persistence is a virtue, unless it's a vice.

Mac, before you get too carried away on the moral high horse of denuciation let me ask you something. what do you call this?

stickdog99 wrote:...Are all of you police apologists ashamed of yourselves yet, or do I need to keep piling it on?

or this:

MacCruiskeen wrote:... despite vk's shameful and timewasting one-line disruption efforts...".

argument?

and no stickdog, i am not ashamed of anything i've said so far. is that a moral failing? what you've so far managed to do is show that there was a bereaucratic/organizational snafu. (and i'm not alone in this, but to say a dozen people on this thread are arguing the same thing is a bit over the top, don't you think? what, do you feel oppressed?) i was arguing for the possibility of such a snafu. this might come as a surprise to you but to paint me in your chosen colors doesn't actually strengthen your argument.

Laodicean has managed so far to show that the po-po lack lift capabilities for their boats (something they themselves admit, and which in fact goes a long way in explaining why they chose to drive there, whatever moral judgments you might want to make re that choice) and have placed an order for the gear. he hasn't shown that they have it and refused to use it.

in fact, re the lift capabilities:

The Utøya massacre has also exposed the country's lack of emergency air response, forcing officers to drive to the island as the killings went on. The one helicopter available to Norwegian special forces was 42 miles away and, according to local reports, could not be flown in time due to Norway's "holiday season".

The setbacks meant armed teams took more than an hour to reach Utøya island. Norwegian media have also carried claims that ambulances on the way to the island to help the wounded were held up as police attempted to secure the area.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... ng-breivik

i say snafu. you really want to say that the ambulance service and local police were in on it?

how many people, at minimum, were involved do you think? how about the telephone responders who were acting in the aftermath of the bombing. do you think they were telling the kids to calm down and leave the lines open because they were hoping more would die before help arrived? how do you explain that?

were the local policemen also in on it? do you really think they all just stood there waiting for boats and not taking the ferry because they were hoping Breivik would be able to kill more people? did they get orders not to choose from the massive and perfectly fine boats that were just lying there?

and this:

stickdog99 wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018280/Norway-massacre-Why-did-police-long-reach-Utoya-island.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Questions are being raised as to why it took Norwegian police and special forces an hour to reach the island of Utoya - as gunman Anders Behring Breivik indiscriminately opened fire on his unsuspecting victims. It has emerged that special forces in Oslo did not have an operative helicopter available that could take them straight to the island. And when they finally arrived after a 28 mile trip by road to Hoenefoss, opposite the island, 60 minutes after (police dishonestly claim) receiving the first reports of the shooting, they could not find a suitable boat to use. The one they did board almost sank because their equipment was too heavy - and they had to continuously bail out water as they made the crossing...

nice bit of editorializing there, cause, you know, if you actually follow the link it says:

Questions are being raised as to why it took Norwegian police and special forces an hour to reach the island of Utoya - as gunman Anders Behring Breivik indiscriminately opened fire on his unsuspecting victims.

It has emerged that special forces in Oslo did not have an operative helicopter available that could take them straight to the island.

And when they finally arrived after a 28 mile trip by road to Hoenefoss, opposite the island, 60 minutes after receiving the first reports of the shooting, they could not find a suitable boat to use.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1TDpUf7B5

but then you obviously know from impeccable sources that the police are "dishonestly claiming", right?

and this:

stickdog99 wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/et-cetera/police-officers-in-norway-carry-no-weapon/articleshow/9368917.cms

It took police SWAT units more than an hour to reach the camp, on Utoya Island, after reports of the shooting came in. Officers had to drive to the shore across from the site of the shooting attack and use boats to get to the island. A police helicopter was unable to get off the ground; news crews that reached the island by air could only watch as the gunman continued the massacre.

Anne Holt, Norway's former justice minister, told the BBC: "That makes him a person that killed one person every minute. If the police had actually been there just a half an hour earlier, then 30 young lives would have been saved."

what is this piece of math-magic supposed to prove? are you arguing that Breivik in fact killed one person a minute using this bit of math as proof? so far it seems safe to say that he probably killed the first 15-20 people within the first five or six minutes. does that mean he wasn't following the math as he was supposed to? did he fuck up the count? do you really want to base your argument on this?

you all see a conspiracy here. fine. cook up a plausible scenario as to who was involved (the least number of people necessary, and you should be able to do that, all things considered) and how many for how long in order to pull this off? can you manage that much without resorting to name calling and loud moral indignation?

if all this has been about a snafu, i'm fine with that.

if you want to go on and say the snafu was shameful, well, i'll reserve judgment.

if you want to say that this apparent snafu was only apparent you're going to have to come up with something better than complaints about my moral standing. of course you could work me into the grand conspiracy. nothing's stopping you.

sorry to spoil your party. have fun eh?

*

68 children, girls and boys sent somewhere to be safe. I remember what an effect the Colombine shooting had on the boomers in my life back in 1999 and the sheer terror of my family members back in Washington DC during the Sniper shootings. Because you just don't imagine sending your kids off to their deaths, when they should be safe.

How long before Norway gets its own Patriot Act, for the childrens' sake?

LiveLeak: Helicopter View From The Massacre Island In Norwegen

The elite-but-sadly-helicopterless Delta Force say they arrested Breivik within 3 minutes of finally arriving on the island by boat. This (very shaky) helicopter (!) video lasts 1:27 minutes and shows a number of unidentifiable figures dressed in dark clothes and gathering behind that van.

I have no idea who filmed this, or when exactly.

http://www.womensfootball.eu/forum/inde ... =showPosts

All available boats ran a shuttle to save as many people as possible from Utøya yesterday. Residents and campers on the mainland saved a large number of people who swam for their lives during the shooting.

Jørn Øverby (45) was making his dinner when a friend rang from Oslo after being contacted by people on the island. The friend said to go and help. "I took my boat out to Utøya and saw many lying helpless in the water while I heard shooting from the island. I gathered the nearest in my boat and threw out life jackets to the rest", he said.

Øverby made several trips to the island before he and a friend in another boat went round to the west side. Suddenly they found themselves in the danger zone. "We heard shooting. While we tried to drag young people up into the boats we were under fire", said Øverby. "Bullets went over my head but they were close enough to hear them going past. My friend was certain the gunman was trying to stop us rescuing people".

Hege Dalen and her partner Torhild Hansen from Sandnessjøen were camping on the mainland opposite Utøya. They were celebrating a daughter's birthday when they heard there was shooting on the island. At the time they were watching TV pictures of the bombing in Oslo. "I went down to the quay and heard shooting. We saw many people swimming from the island and at the same time boats went out. We went out and helped people out of the water", Dalen told VG.

Torhild said they were able to rescue ten at a time. Then their boat was full and they had to return to land before going out again. "I believe that 250 to 300 people were picked up from the water. We went right over to Utøya once and brought out some people hiding in a hole", he said.

They had to take heartbreaking decisions. "We filled the boat with as many as we could. We had to leave some in the water. It was terrible. I don't know if others picked them up", said Torhild Hansen.

Hege Dalen lent her phone to a girl whose brother was still on the island. "She stood and looked closely at everyone who arrived, to try and find her brother. It made a deep impression on me", she said.

stickdog99 wrote:In the midst of all this, we have about a half dozen RIers defending the cops for letting more kids die and pretending the cops' excuses for taking 78 minutes to respond are perfectly reasonable. I am seriously wondering if we are on the same planet here.

Do you really want a discussion in which all participants have the same opinion?

You know what happened, while I'm still wondering, and that makes me a child-killing cop apologist and fascist Illuminati tool. Okay, I can live with that.

I have to admit to having a bit of a start when Mac posted that the cops had known Breivik's name. I was mentally writing an acknowledgement that you must be right. But it doesn't seem to have panned out.

I'm certainly open to more conclusive evidence. And I certainly think that anything which could have been done to save more of the people on the island should have been. At the moment, I just don't feel, for me, that the police response time is a smoking gun of a wider conspiracy to abet Breivik's actions.

vanlose kid,

I have no problems if you don't think there was any conspiracy here.

My problem is the lengths you have gone to make that point, including endorsing a complete load of rubbish about it taking 20 minutes for the police to be so much as notified about this shooting spree as well as defending the cops for picking their noses while regular Joes and Janes were risking their completely unarmed civilian asses all around them to save these kids.

But, please feel free to avoid these issues and instead make the issue my too aggressive argumentative style.

barracuda wrote:

stickdog99 wrote:In the midst of all this, we have about a half dozen RIers defending the cops for letting more kids die and pretending the cops' excuses for taking 78 minutes to respond are perfectly reasonable. I am seriously wondering if we are on the same planet here.

Do you really want a discussion in which all participants have the same opinion?

You know what happened, while I'm still wondering, and that makes me a child-killing cop apologist and fascist Illuminati tool. Okay, I can live with that.

I have to admit to having a bit of a start when Mac posted that the cops had known Breivik's name. I was mentally writing an acknowledgement that you must be right. But it doesn't seem to have panned out.

I'm certainly open to more conclusive evidence. And I certainly think that anything which could have been done to save more of the people on the island should have been. At the moment, I just don't feel, for me, that the police response time is a smoking gun of a wider conspiracy to abet Breivik's actions.

I don't think you have any idea what my beef is with you on this thread. Hint: It's not that you don't believe the police were active conspirators.

Well, whatever your beef happens to turn out to be, don't let me interfere with your excellent work posting information about the incident, which has been much appreciated here.

stickdog99 wrote:vanlose kid,

I have no problems if you don't think there was any conspiracy here.

My problem is the lengths you have gone to make that point, including endorsing a complete load of rubbish about it taking 20 minutes for the police to be so much as notified about this shooting spree as well as defending the cops for picking their noses while regular, completely unarmed Joes and Janes were risking their lives to all around them to save these kids.

But, please feel free to avoid these issues and instead make the issue my too aggressive argumentative style.

stickdog,

i have no problem with you seeing a conspiracy here.

all i'm doing is pointing out what i see as holes in your theory that are bigger than the cheese. you want to rephrase my points in terms of morals or as defense and apology, and then call it "my too aggressive argumentative style" that's fine too. i'll just point out that you're just renaming shit to cover over other shit. if you'll pardon my current "too aggressive argumentative style"? is that okay with you?

good. we're good.

*

barracuda wrote:Well, whatever your beef happens to turn out to be, don't let me interfere with your excellent work posting information about the incident, which has been much appreciated here.

i'll second that.

*

Apologize if this has been mentioned, but I read a CNN article about Glen Beck saying the island summer camp sounded like a "Hitler Youth Camp". What a dickhead. Brevik hated Muslims but like Beck, he hated liberals that much more. I'm disgusted with these filthy fascists.

this is stickdog's m.o. -- and he did it ad infinitum in the peak oil thread, where if you didn't believe that peak oil was a fiction invented by big oil, that you were an apologist for big oil, and on "their side"

it was as insulting and neurotic and paranoid in that thread as it is in this thread.

i don't think you'd find many "cop apologists" at r.i. in any thread, or in any situation, perhaps with the freaky right wing exception of sepka.

but no. to stickdog, if you don't see a huge murderous conspiracy on the part of the entire oslo police force, you're an apologist for the cops. regardless of whatever facts may not have come in yet, and assuming the city police are willing to sail head-first into machinegun fire from killers well hidden on an island. why are you assuming cops are so brave? you've been watching too much tv pal.

i once watched from the 17th floor of a building as a riot broke out. the cops came and hid until things settled down, then when it was obvious they had no chance of actually getting hurt, they finally came in, billyclubs swinging. most of them are jjust bullies in uniforms.

but i guess my saying that makes me an aplologist for them.

Nordic wrote:to stickdog, if you don't see a huge murderous conspiracy on the part of the entire oslo police force, you're an apologist for the cops.

No, Nordic. That's obviously and demonstrably not true. You are misrepresenting Stickdog's arguments (and the mass of evidence he's presented here) most unfairly. And whatever your differences on the Peak Oil thread, you have no business bringing them up here, least of all repeatedly.

I made the point much earlier in the thread, and I'm pretty sure Stickdog has too: no "huge murderous conspiracy on the part of the entire oslo police force" is necessary, obviously. All it takes is one well-placed person, or a handful of highly-placed people, with the power to make and enforce decisions that thousands of underlings have to obey on pain of severe sanctions.

Such people exist, as you well know, and nothing whatsoever compels us to believe that all of their decisions are benevolently motivated.

excuse me if this has been mentioned but, how the hell did they get this picture? it looks like the guy posed for promo shots.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/26/oslo-terror-attacks-lawyer-anders-behring-breivik-insane-_n_909410.html