rigorousintuition.ca

JackRiddler wrote:That the Zack incident happened in 1992 is in the second paragraph of the widely linked Hartford Courant story!

well I'll admit I jumped to conclusions there, been caught skimming again. I didn't know jack about Zack.

The behavior of the witch-burning US media in this case, as though I need to say it, is utterly shameful.

And even as they call Ivins a psycho and a profiteer in the same breath, note that the usual T-word is nowhere stated. Terrorists, those are always dark-skinned. White people, those are serial killers.

I agree, this represents a whole new level of shameful behavior on the part of the Mouthpiece Media.

When I first read this news (here, BTW), I seriously thought it might be complete bullshit, some kind of subtle satire.

It read like a bad thriller.

But that's what passes today for "journalism" and "government operations".

Yes, I like how they never seem to be able to come up with a real motive for this guy other than that he was inexplicably "nuts" somehow. And now this lame-ass excuse that he could have benefitted financially -- but if you read about it, he only stood to "profit" in terms of maybe tens of thousands of dollars -- how many people would become a mass murderer for the price of a luxury car?

The whole thing falls into the "they must think we're really stupid" category.

It's just like a piece of bad writing, only it's real and they're expecting us to all swallow it and say "oh gosh, I guess that's the end of it!"

It just blows my mind, and I thought I was already about as cynical as I could get.

Actually, I'm kind of surprised that Irvin would have been entitled to personally patent anything that was that directly related to his job. In private corporations, doesn't the patent usually belong to the company? And if he was working directly for the government, the work on which the patent was based would most likely not be independent of the work of others--it would have been a shared product. I don't know much about it, but it seems kind of funny.

Now that I think about it (sorry if I've missed somebody's link, if this has been mentioned already), but I'm wondering if Irvin's patent is what clued the FBI in on him. Didn't one of his colleagues say that Irvin wasn't skilled or experienced enough to have done the crime? So, what about this patent? Did the subject of the patent require skill beyond his supposed expertise?

Yes, chiggerbit.

A heroic, hard working, never-say-die FBI agent finally stumbled upon the "get rich quick by mailing weaponized anthrax to two prominent Democratic Senators" patent angle 6 1/2 years after the fact by burning the midnight oil among the dark shelves of a dusty patent library, and the rest is America's Most Wanted history.

http://tinyurl.com/create.php

...Ivins was one of several scientists named in an application for a vaccine patent 18 months before the attacks...."

Well, one always has to be careful about bullshit on the Intertubes.

This thread here is the first I ever heard that Zack is supposed to be Jewish.

I don't remember the details about Zack. I remember reading what I thought was fairly credible speculation, NOT on anti-Jewish sites, that pointed to him due to his treatment of a Pakistani scientist and other factors.

I don't begin to have enough evidence to think that he is guilty.

But I damn sure have enough evidence already to think that Ivins is almost certainly NOT guilty.

I had a close family member framed by the feds one time, more than 50 years ago. Heaven help you if they go after you like this.

I think chiggerbit's talk about Jews on this thread is entirely frivolous, paranoid, self-regarding, and unsubstantiated. One could even say that it is an attempt to hijack the thread, which seems to be working more or less.

Not sure why I'm suddenly in a war with chiggerbit, about whom I know almost nothing, not even gender. For what it's worth, I have no desire for a personal war and just want to discuss this important public topic.

it's possible Ivins was involved AND all this crap coming out about him is BS too. If that's the case we're looking at the first phase of a bush clean-up crew at work and more 'accidents' and 'suicides' are on the way.

Sure, Ivins could have been "involved." But there's no way that this was his idea. Why the specific targets? Why the seven year delay in noticing there was a deranged looney with the knowledge, motive and access to pull this off?

Woman’s ties to anthrax case unclear
Originally published August 03, 2008

By Comfort Dorn
News-Post Staff

Two days after a media frenzy following the news that Jean Duley sought legal protection from Bruce Ivins, the chief suspect in the 2001 anthrax attacks, Duley has gone into hiding.

Ivins died Tuesday at Frederick Memorial Hospital, an apparent suicide.

Duley, 45, filed for a peace order against him July 24 in Frederick County District Court, accusing him of stalking, threats and harassment. A temporary peace order was granted that day.

Duley's fiance of seven years, Mike McFadden, spoke to The Frederick News-Post on Saturday from their home in Williamsport and provided a statement on her behalf.

"Jean is currently at an undisclosed location," McFadden said.

Duley had numerous meetings with the FBI in the past month, McFadden said, but he declined to provide specific information about those meetings.

He said Ivins had threatened Duley's life.

Court documents state that Ivins had made "homicidal threats, actions, plans, threats and actions towards therapist."

Duley, a social worker, led counseling sessions attended by Ivins.

The story of Ivins' death and investigation by the FBI broke early Friday. Since then, McFadden said, Duley has been hounded by the national press.

Someone broke into her car Friday night, McFadden said, though no police report was filed. "Nothing was taken," he said, "but everything was jumbled up."

Duley told the court she had been subpoenaed to testify before a federal grand jury Friday. She was reluctant to become involved in the FBI's investigation of Ivins, McFadden said. "She had to quit her job and is now unable to work, and we have spent our savings on attorneys."

McFadden would not provide any specific information about Duley's involvement with Ivins or the investigation.

"Jean is the kind of person who believes her life is insignificant in comparison with the kind of damage Dr. Ivins is capable of," he said. "She sacrificed all this stuff because she wanted to do the right thing. She'll soon reveal what many wouldn't because they didn't want to be involved with it."

At the request of her attorney, Duley is unable to say anything, McFadden said. "She'd appreciate some semblance of privacy."

With Ivins dead, the Justice Department is expected to decide within days whether to close what had been one of its most high-profile unsolved cases, according to the Associated Press. Prosecutors were mulling this weekend whether to tell a grand jury investigating evidence against Ivins to close the case. If that happens, court documents outlining the government's evidence are expected to be unsealed.

Two U.S. officials said victims and their survivors could be briefed as early as Tuesday, the AP reports.

Frederick Mayor Jeff Holtzinger told the News-Post he was briefed on the situation by Frederick Police Department Chief Kim Dine, but did not have any dealings with officials from the FBI or USAMRIID.

"It's a tragedy for the family," he said.

Despite the news that a Fort Detrick scientist may have been the source of the deadly anthrax attacks that killed five people, Holtzinger did not consider the base a harm to the surrounding community.

"Fort Detrick has an excellent safety record," he said. "I just don't think you can provide 100 percent safeguard from someone who intends to do harm."

Ivins shared two anthrax-related patents with other scientists. The first, filed in November 1994, was for a system to produce a protective antigen against bacillus anthracis. The second, filed in March 2000, was for making an anthrax vaccine. The other local inventors listed on the patents could not be reached for comment.

Maryland's chief medical examiner, Dr. David Fowler, confirmed Saturday that the cause of Ivins' death was found to be an overdose of acetaminophen, the active drug in Tylenol; and that it was ruled a suicide based on information from police and doctors, according to the AP.

Kimberly Thomas, a forensic examiner with the Maryland Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, would not comment Saturday on results from Ivins' autopsy or confirm Dr. Fowler's statement.

Despite the widespread publicity following Ivins' death, Keeney and Basford Funeral Home said Saturday that the family had made no changes to funeral arrangements announced Friday in his obituary. A memorial service is scheduled for 10 a.m. Saturday at St. John the Evangelist Roman Catholic Church in Frederick, followed by a reception at the church parish hall.

Ivins' brother, Tom Ivins, said he had not spoken to Bruce Ivins since 1985, but acknowledged the possibility his brother may have been the anthrax mailer.

"It makes sense, what the social worker said," Tom Ivins said. "He considered himself like a god."

Ivins' wife Diane refused to comment today from the couple's home on Military Road in Frederick.

Their two children posted messages to their father on their Facebook pages Wednesday.

Daughter Amanda wrote, "forever my hero, forever in my heart, forever my daddy - rest in peace I will always love you!!"

Son Andy wrote, "I will miss you Dad. I love you and I can't wait to see you in Heaven. Rest in peace. It's finally over."

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sectio ... ryID=78336


Dr. Bruce Ivins, Ms. Jean Duley, and the FBI’s “Court Document”


Bruce Ivins plays keyboard with the band Celtic Live at Bushwaller's in Frederick on March 17, 2006.

I keep having the hardest time taking any of this information at face value. After numerous meetings with the FBI, etc. which she didn't want to have over the last month, she files a restraining order less than a week before Ivins' death.

"homicidal threats, actions, plans, threats and actions towards therapist."

A resraining order requires no evidence to be instated, you simply have to file a one page document with the court and they are automatically granted. It's not like filing charges. The allegations in the restraining order are usually not investigated or litigated by the court. In other words you tell your side of the story, and the keep-away order is put in place, there are no repercussions for making false allegations whatsoever. From what I can tell, Duley first even met this guy less than a month ago, yet she has now lost her job. Well not lost, I mean she

"had to quit her job and is now unable to work, and we have spent our savings on attorneys."

Don't worry, the tabloid press will pick up the tab if you want, no problem. But with the FBI looking over your shoulder, why quit your job?

"She sacrificed all this stuff because she wanted to do the right thing. She'll soon reveal what many wouldn't because they didn't want to be involved with it."

She'll reveal it all when she comes out of hiding. That gives me confidence in the freshness and reliability of her story. Not. The book deals are in the works here. Sorry if my first impression is that she is following instructions from the FBI's "Patsies for Dummies" manual.

And could Ivins brother please STFU, like, now? Cause he's not generating much sympathy somehow. Talk about a candidate for goin' postal, he's IT. Again, STFU, like, please.

~
[url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-ap-anthrax-daschle,0,4140661.story]Daschle criticizes anthrax investigation, saying FBI should provide more information
By Associated Press
10:12 AM CDT, August 3, 2008[/url]
~

Surreal...Olbermann and Posner pretty much allude to the government being behind the attacks, and this man is merely a patsy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDEx2kwjfRM

Olbermann's finally growing a pair of balls!

Ivins may have been seeing Duley for a prescription drug addiction (Tylenol with Codeine would be my guess). About a month ago the Frederick News-Post ran an article with her here and another one with a picture of her holding a bottle of Suboxone.

From the first article:

The lifestyles of Jean Duley's clients run the gamut: long-time street drug users, those who were prescribed powerful painkillers after an injury or operation and are now addicted, and middle-class housewives who abuse prescriptions, to name a few.

The second article is mostly about how people accidentally overdose. A few possible theories spring to mind. First, Ivins was suffering from drug addiction and naturally choose to end his life that way. Second, these articles primed the public (public defined as newspaper readers of Frederick, Maryland) to accept the idea of Ivins committing suicide with prescription meds. Third, Duley killed Ivins to reap financial rewards from her investments in Suboxone. (Note that she has recently quit her job probably anticipating Suboxone sales to soar.)

IanEye: my take on the anthrax episode was that a certain faction felt left out and were kind of hurt by that.

When a group pulls off a coup, the first thing they want to do after is restore order, their order , as soon as possible.

it always felt like the anthrax episode was one group telling the coup group, "we know who you are, and we want in, now, otherwise chaos might continue for a while. and who really wants that?"


Barracuda: I think that is a very interesting notion, pointing a finger, maybe, at a military source and message.



I agree. Reposting some stuff from the ABC thread that might be useful, in case anyone missed it. It should become obvious who the finger is pointing at (and it's not the Jews).


8-bit: The scary thing about 9/11, is that the "perps" may not have even been aware they were being used in the attack.


In this case too, I think. At least, the "perps" may not have been aware of who's real interests they were serving.

The attached PDF...provides somewhat greater detail on the background of Steven Hatfill than has been available in the press. It also includes circumstantial evidence or conjecture concerning Hatfill's relationships to others, especially the late Glenn Eschtruth, M.D. (Methodist medical missionary in Kapanga, Zaire [now Democratic Republic of the Congo], who was the only US [or foreign] casualty of a Spring 1977 invasion of Zaire by Soviet- and Cuban-directed mercenaries entering from Angola), the late Professor Robert Symington (anatomy, U. of Rhodesia; "father" of Rhodesian biological warfare), the late Larry C. Ford, M.D. (CIA-connected consultant to the South African biological warfare program, Project Coast, headed by Wouter Basson, M.D.), and Ford's associate, Jerry Nilsson, M.D.

http://cryptome.quintessenz.at/mirror/hatfill-spd.htm


Apologies to those who don't like .PDF. I don't know how to convert it so that I can quote from it. The main point made in the .PDF, at any rate, is that Hatfill almost certainly got to know both Larry C. Ford and Jerry Nilsson during his time in Rhodesia and South Africa.


http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/terr ... ord/2.html

The day following D'Saachs arrest, police searched Ford's Foxboro Street home, finding evidence described as "germane" to the case. On March 2, three days after Riley's shooting, Ford met with his lawyer for several hours. Later the same day, Ford shot himself in the head in the bedroom of his house.

He left behind a suicide note, in which he stated that he was innocent of the attempted murder of his partner. Ford's lawyer, Bryan Card told the Associated Press on March 14 that the note stated that Ford believed he had been set up to look like he had been a part of the ambush. Ford wrote that he would be vindicated of the crime if the investigation was conducted appropriately. The suicide note also claimed that there was information related to the case hidden within his house, but the location written in the note was illegible.

In a search of Ford's property, police found five different guns in the bedroom where Ford had apparently committed suicide. None of the guns was connected to the Riley shooting. The guns were not the only weapons found on Ford's property. Shortly following Ford's death, a family member contacted the police anonymously to warn them that Ford had buried canisters of HIV-related materials on his property. The phone call sparked a massive search, which would expose much more than the caller suggested.

On March 9, 2000, police and FBI agents began a search of Dr. Ford's backyard. However, before any digging began, the local elementary school and some 200 area residents were evacuated from their homes as a safety precaution and lodged for four days at a nearby Hyatt hotel.


After digging for some time beneath a concrete slab next to Ford's swimming pool, they found six suspicious white plastic cylinder containers. The investigators x-rayed the cylinders on site. "We don't know what's inside, but we believe they are filled with illegal weapons and hazardous materials," Irvine police Lt. Sam Allevato said. Orange County Sheriff's Department used a robot to remove the containers from their location and sent them to the FBI crime lab in Quantico, Virginia, to be dismantled and analyzed. The six containers were filled with military grade explosives, including C-4 plastic blasting caps.

Twenty-one more sealed canisters were discovered on Ford's property. The canisters contained several thousand rounds of ammunition and a multitude of guns, including automatic rifles. According to an article by WorldNet Daily, anthrax containers were also found buried in Ford's yard. Some 25 jars of unidentified substances were removed from inside Ford's home.

On May 15, 2000, The Chemical and Biological Arms Institute released the results of preliminary tests on the substances found in Dr. Ford's home. The Los Angeles Times reported on May 15, 2000, that some of the live cultures contained cholera and salmonella. The New York Times reported on November 3, 2002, that the refrigerators in Ford's home and office had a total of 266 bottles and vials of lethal toxins. Live cultures of botulism and typhoid fever were also found. On November 7, 2002, CBS News said that police also found the medical files of some 83 women, including some of their personal effects and photos, below the floorboards of the house. Investigators believed that the discovery of the biological materials and other articles found at Ford's home could serve as a link to a biological warfare program run by the military in South Africa — a country that Dr. Ford visited often before his death.

The whole story of Ford at the link has to be read, I'm afraid, from page 1,
but it's worth it.


Tal: Why did the anthrax letters attempt to link 9/11 and the anthrax attack and pretend to be from radical Muslims and be anti-America and anti-Israel, if they really came from an American with a warped plan but good intentions?


Also found in Ford's bedroom was a substantial quantity of Christian Identity "literature." There seems to have been a clique of these bioweaponeers both inside USAMRIID/Fort detrick - and outside, too - who were, let's say, not overly fond of other races.

Who would volunteer to serve in South Africa/Rhodesia during Apartheid's darkest days? Ford, Hatfill and Nilsson did. Ford liked to boast of his CIA links - Hatfill came back to work at USAMRIID - Nilsson is the mystery man (at least, I'm guessing the Facebook page I found isn't the same guy I was looking for, hehe).


http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/ ... index.html

...Others have expressed fears that Basson and other Coast scientists were associated with an even broader international right-wing network, purportedly known as Die Organisasie (The Organization), among whose members are said to be expatriate Rhodesians and South Africans who emigrated to other countries both during the apartheid era and as the apartheid system was collapsing.[74]

If an organization of this sort actually exists, which remains to be substantiated, it may turn out that the American doctors Larry Ford and Jerry Nilsson, an outspoken white supremacist, were among its members. According to a pair of Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) informants, in the mid-1980s Dr. Ford transferred a suitcase full of dangerous "kaffir-killing" pathogens to Surgeon-General Knobel at the Los Angeles residence of the South African trade attaché, Gideon Bouwer.[75] It has also emerged that Nilsson fought as a volunteer against nationalist guerrillas during the Rhodesian civil war...

In the wake of Ford's March 2000 suicide, which transpired just as he was beginning to be implicated in the attempted assassination of his Irvine business partner James Patrick Riley, the police discovered an arsenal of small arms and explosives, Christian Identity militia literature, and over 260 containers of biological materials on his various properties. (For unknown reasons, the FBI has yet to divulge the contents of all but 20 or so of those containers.) Patients and former mistresses have testified that Ford secretly poisoned them, and a jar of ricin toxin was found in a refrigerator in his garage.[77] The fact that one of ex-Selous Scout and EMLC armorer Philip Morgan's "special applicators" was also found among Ford's possessions is itself indicative of what appears to have been a close relationship between the American doctor and key Project Coast personnel.

There is also some evidence indicating that Stephen J. Hatfill, an American biological warfare expert who the FBI has designated as a "person of interest" in its investigation of the 2001 anthrax letter mailings in the United States, was involved in various Rhodesian intelligence or counterinsurgency operations. Although Hatfill's activities in Southern Africa have yet to be fully clarified, it is known that he worked for the Rhodesian police's Special Branch and that he later obtained his medical degree from the University of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe.[78] Some have hinted that he operated out of the Selous Scouts base at the Bindura Fort, from whence McGuinness facilitated the launching of "black operations," including CW actions. At present, however, intimations that Hatfill may have been personally involved in the covert dissemination of CW or BW agents in southern Africa can only be characterized as unsubstantiated.

Be that as it may, in 2002 the South African media reported that Hatfill had earlier helped to train the Aquila Brigade shock troops of Eugene Terre'Blanche's right-wing Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging (AWB: Afrikaner Resistance Movement).[79] During this period, he also claims to have received advanced medical training from various SAMS components, as well as to have been assigned to its 2 Medical Battalion Group.

Hatfill trains the Aquila Bridgade: http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_ ... 920A536231



Chiggerbit: ... an anonymous letter, sent before the anthrax hysteria, in late September, to the military police at the Marine base in Quantico, Virginia, accusing a US government bioengineer, Egyptian-born Dr. Ayaad Assaad, of being behind a bio-terrorist plot. The letter-writer revealed a detailed knowledge of Dr. Assaad's life and work at USAMRID, including details of his personal life that only someone who worked with him could have possibly known: indeed, the poison-pen author claimed to have formerly worked with Dr. Assaad.

...Indeed, the one thread that seems to run throughout this story is anti-Arab animus, as the astonishing – and truly frightening – story of what happened at Ft. Detrick in the early 1990s makes all too clear….



One of Ivins' letters, quoted by Compared2What: Whether Americans like it or not, the results of the presidential election have propelled charismatic and evangelical Christians into new heights of political power. Many of those individuals would agree that the laws of this nation should be compatible with the Gospel, if not actually based upon it.

Whether we're on the "Christian Nation Express" or not, we all need to be ready for a wild political ride these next four years through a landscape of issues deemed important by conservative Christians.


...Whether Americans like it or not?


Fat Lady Sings: Note that Ohio is rather a hotbed of various racist/ Christian extremist activity; I find it interesting that the brother draws a HUGE line between himself and his two brothers (from his brother's Letters to the Editor, he is very clearly on the liberal side of "conservative Christianity" -- showing his disgust at racism, for instance).


Yes. "I'm a paratrooper..." Christian Identity Militia-style, maybe?


There is Christian Identity and white supremacist stuff scattered along all these people's trails (with the ironic exception of Ivins himself...so far).
It's reminiscent of the Atta group's neverending supply of Korans, which they seem to have left everywhere they went.

So my worry is that I may be following the officially-approved conspiracy theory here. Or just muddying the waters further (which is something not required in this case)

But it has been said (by Wouter Basson himself) that Project Coast in South Africa was also capable of producing the Ames strain, and considering the amount of intermingling between SA and US bioweapons scientists, and their apparent long history of exchanging both research data and sample toxins, I think the South Africa angle is still worth bearing in mind.

Ivins was clearly a patsy. Hatfill too. But the best patsies are not innocents. They are usually just involved enough to make it convincing.

Christian Identity, for those who may not know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity

It's not very Christian.