82_28 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:09 pm wrote:It's not that it's not part of the "matrix" it's that is a constantly improving matrix in order for the matrix to exist in virtualization of every facet of life. So, yes. Matrix all the way -- even though I think I voted for the inside job.
We live within a sphere of constantly "improving" technology. And thus we are the matrix we are seeing/experiencing. Time flows backwards and forwards whether we like it or not. The only hiccup is that as units in this matrix we are forced to face natural entropy. Thus we, here now, because of entropy cannot pick a date out from the "past" and "go back to". Thus, we live in "the matrix" within the "time" of its most advanced development which will turn out to be pure virtualization. Virtualization is the old real. No not new real, old real.
The Empire Never Ended.
A general malaise has set upon the public, young and old. I see it so clearly. Everyone on their 'smart phones'. We wasted endless kilobytes on para/political forums and chats in the 2000s talking about this idea of "they" enslaving us or the gub'ment curbing rights. Ultimately, we demanded it. We did it to ourselves. We're the prisoner and the warden.
And the more the gadgets match up to our fantasy cyberpunk hardons, the farther into the real life matrix we slip
Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:37 am
by 8bitagent
As bat shit flat earth as the simulation/dream thesis is, I totally get the VIBE behind it. I've begun heavily feeling that way. Least for me, I don't know if its a depression but life feels less and less real.
I mean shoot, most the population believes in Gods/para-natural/angel/UFO/magic stuff, so why not?
Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:55 am
by JackRiddler
Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:18 pm wrote:The Simulation Thesis has always kinda baffled me -- much like the hooplah over the "Anthropic Principle," it seems like an uroboros of cascading tautologies snuffing themselves out of existence in a single simmering second. You know?
Roll with me here. The Universe is precisely tuned to support human life precisely because human life has evolved to be here to take those measurements. It doesn't signify an intelligent creator, it just signifies the inevitable system requirements for the current moment, which, as we all know and often forget, it completely non-negotiable, unlike almost everything else humans talk and think about while we're here. Then again, I always thought the Descartes aphorism "I think, therefore I am" was a sad lament about the limitations of thought, rather than an inspirational spark of insight.
I see the Simulation Thesis the same way -- when you consider the system requirements for a simulation of this scale, it's basically 1:1 isomorphic to the Universe Thesis, which is based on the observation that HOLY FUCK WE ARE ALL INSIDE THIS HUGE THING RIGHT NOW AND IT IS ALIVE. Same reason I think the Singularity Thesis is just as much of an intellectual shrug as the recourse to theodicy, though: because I am.
How did you get inside my head? Stop!
Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:43 am
by jakell
My own approach to figuring out if things are 'real' or not (whether a large 'simulation' or social tomfoolery) is basically a scientific approach, it would also very likely to win the approval of Crowley et al....
That is to treat it as if it's real, and as much as possible pay attention and use critical faculties over a period of time, if we do this rigourously and patiently enough we will see glitches and fnords, which can then be expanded upon.
This focuses our critical faculties, whereas to be constantly second guessing divides these (to a potentially infinite degree). In other words.... let the robot plod through everyday life, experiencing all it's myriad situations, let the programmer mull over these in the context of everyday life, and let the metaprogrammer deal with 'what it's all about'.
If no glitches and fnords are noticed, then we can assume for practical purposes that what the robot is experiencing is reality. Of course, we can repeat this any number of times if we're not convinced, but at least we have a method
Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:05 am
by semper occultus
Wombaticus Rex » 16 Jan 2014 02:18 wrote:The Simulation Thesis has always kinda baffled me -- much like the hooplah over the "Anthropic Principle," it seems like an uroboros of cascading tautologies snuffing themselves out of existence in a single simmering second. You know?
Roll with me here. The Universe is precisely tuned to support human life precisely because human life has evolved to be here to take those measurements. It doesn't signify an intelligent creator, it just signifies the inevitable system requirements for the current moment, which, as we all know and often forget, it completely non-negotiable, unlike almost everything else humans talk and think about while we're here. Then again, I always thought the Descartes aphorism "I think, therefore I am" was a sad lament about the limitations of thought, rather than an inspirational spark of insight.
...wasn't there another one of those dwem’s who made some aphorism about all the world being a stage or something…?....inviting some speculation about what you can see if you take a peak behind the scenery......
Wombaticus Rex » 16 Jan 2014 02:18 wrote:I see the Simulation Thesis the same way -- when you consider the system requirements for a simulation of this scale, it's basically 1:1 isomorphic to the Universe Thesis, which is based on the observation that HOLY FUCK WE ARE ALL INSIDE THIS HUGE THING RIGHT NOW AND IT IS ALIVE.
…I dunno though…I’m supposing no-one out there actually thinks George Lucas actually built a planet-sized city to play around with do they…?
Although I admit the trajectory from
to
implies they may be trying to economise on hard disc-space
( ...although it is still a crap theory...)
Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:40 am
by coffin_dodger
Making occasional forays into reality from the rabbit-hole, here.
Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:48 am
by Saurian Tail
Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:18 pm wrote:
I see the Simulation Thesis the same way -- when you consider the system requirements for a simulation of this scale, it's basically 1:1 isomorphic to the Universe Thesis ...
Simulation is such a sketchy metaphor. The point from my perspective is not that it is a simulation, but that it is non-physical. There are no billiard balls at the center of matter ... it is ALL empty space.
The most interesting thing that I have found heading down this path is that there are tools that humans have developed for exploring the non-physical reality. The trick is to balance the inner and outer non-physical experiences so that they illuminate each other.
For the most part, we are only looking in one direction. I pointed to the Plato/Aristotle divide as an illustration of where knowledge of the non-physical began to be disappeared from the western mind.
Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:15 pm
by slimmouse
There are no billiard balls at the center of matter ... it is ALL empty space.
....Encoded in electromagnetic form of course
I think that when we understand such hard nosed scientifically accepted fact in all of its detail and implication, people familiar with such truth get to thinking about what really happened in the millisecond before the Big Bang.
To me, this is when it starts to get very personal.
Big Bang theory may have its detractors, some of whom argue "how can something solid be created out of nothing?"
Well not nothing actually. Created out of potential.
Which isnt really solid in any way either.
"Hope you find it in you"
Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:52 pm
by slimmouse
I knew their was an Einstein in me just busting to get out.
I'd like to announce to you all my combined theory of everything.
For the purposes of my recently assembled equation, I first give you the values contained within it.
e = electricity
M= Magnetism
(i)= Information* infromation is naturally contained within the the first two, so it needs a special "i" in there too.
C = Consciousness
This gives us ...
e+M+(i) = C
or vice versa. I hold a very broad church.
I require no copyright, I strongly suspect it needs tinkering with anyways
only that perhaps you remember where you heard it first ( I think, or certainly hope)
Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:45 pm
by 8bitagent
On the note of de-evolution...yeah they were slave supporting, native american killing white dudes...but I have a hard time trying to even read the speeches of the early presidents. Take Martin van Buren's inaugural address.
Most people today wouldn't be able to read let alone comprehend it. How we got from that to Bush Dubya...to now days where the average youth conversation is "sup #omg like um uh right?"
I've noticed over the years that one of your more favored phrases is "thanks for the brainfood". Well, you basically made me relent and realize my curiosity (eyes) is (are) bigger than my brain (stomache). So thanks for the indigestion.
At one point I had about 10 windows open and was tenuously holding onto about a dozen mental post it notes when it all came crashing down and I went back to one of the fascinating side tracks I had successfully resisted previously:
China starts televising the sunset on giant TV screens because Beijing is so clouded in smog
The smog has become so thick in Beijing that the city's natural light-starved masses have begun flocking to huge digital commercial television screens across the city to observe virtual sunrises.
The futuristic screens installed in the Chinese capital usually advertize tourist destinations, but as the season's first wave of extremely dangerous smog hit - residents donned air masks and left their homes to watch the only place where the sun would hail over the horizon that morning.
Commuters across Beijing found themselves cloaked in a thick, gray haze on Thursday as air pollution monitors issued a severe air warning and ordered the elderly and school children to stay indoors until the quality improved.
Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:25 am
by coffin_dodger
The logo in the bottom right 'shan dong' IS a tourist destination. Nice manufactured dystopian imagery, though.
Re: How far down the rabbit hole do you go?
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:03 am
by seemslikeadream
Giant mirrors reflect winter sun into Norwegian town of Rjukan
Wombaticus Rex » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:18 pm wrote:
I see the Simulation Thesis the same way -- when you consider the system requirements for a simulation of this scale, it's basically 1:1 isomorphic to the Universe Thesis ...
Simulation is such a sketchy metaphor. The point from my perspective is not that it is a simulation, but that it is non-physical. There are no billiard balls at the center of matter ... it is ALL empty space.
I very much agree and hope you didn't register any of my rantage as a response what you've been saying in this thread, which has been good shit.
Think of my riff as more related to lectures at Singularity University, or blog posts that rely on extended Matrix metaphors and a Nova for Kids level of quantum factoids. You are saying something altogether more subtle. And crazy-making! Always a strong Good Shit indicator.
