Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby Nordic » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:00 am

Well, anyone who has been paying the least bit of attention has known that this whole thing was quite literally a big Ponzi scheme. Environmentally speaking. And that we would either figure out ways to stretch it along, so long that it wouldn't matter to our lives, and those of our children, or else it would come to a very ugly end sometimes sooner rather than later.

The question is not if, but when. It always has been.

And the question is who's gonna suffer the brunt of it, and who is going to skate?

Obviously I hope that I and my loved ones will somehow avoid the worst of it.

When I first saw this coming, 30 years ago, I thought one of the best ways to avoid the pain was to become quite wealthy so that you could weather the storm a little more painlessly. I failed to do this, having to follow my heart (or was it my ego?) in order to live the kind of life I wanted to live, do the kind of work that was "creatively rewarding" and all of that rot.

Bad decision. I should have been one of the many things I could have been that would have made me some good fat chunks of steady money over the years so I'd now be in a position to buffer myself and my family.

Oh well.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby anothershamus » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:09 am

Nordic wrote:Well, anyone who has been paying the least bit of attention has known that this whole thing was quite literally a big Ponzi scheme. Environmentally speaking. And that we would either figure out ways to stretch it along, so long that it wouldn't matter to our lives, and those of our children, or else it would come to a very ugly end sometimes sooner rather than later.

The question is not if, but when. It always has been.

And the question is who's gonna suffer the brunt of it, and who is going to skate?

Obviously I hope that I and my loved ones will somehow avoid the worst of it.

When I first saw this coming, 30 years ago, I thought one of the best ways to avoid the pain was to become quite wealthy so that you could weather the storm a little more painlessly. I failed to do this, having to follow my heart (or was it my ego?) in order to live the kind of life I wanted to live, do the kind of work that was "creatively rewarding" and all of that rot.

Bad decision. I should have been one of the many things I could have been that would have made me some good fat chunks of steady money over the years so I'd now be in a position to buffer myself and my family.

Oh well.



I thought the same thing nordic, but when I look back to when I worked at a bank, 1986, and i saw the dead eyes of the cubicle workers, and the evil in the eyes of the executives, I chose to make my living as I could by my own skill, or lack thereof. I enjoy a homebrew with my friends during traditional work house (frequently) and I feel all the better for it.

It worked out ok but I don't get the 10million dollar bonuses that I could have had if I had been a TOTAL ASSHOLE.

I have to think I chose wisely. The end is not here yet, and like I keep posting:

"All we can do is to "enjoy life while you can".
)'(
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby wintler2 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:19 am

Who benefits from the apathy that Lovelock preaches, from the continuation of business as usual? The same psychopaths who led us into this abyss.

Why is Lovelock singing their song? Maybe because he is a 'made' man, he is inside the establishment and wealthy enough to look after his own, and doesn't want the plebs rocking any lifeboats.

Apathy is a sickness, alienation and internalised powerlessness writ large. This confirms for me that Lovelock has nothing further to offer.
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby anothershamus » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:40 am

wintler2 wrote:Who benefits from the apathy that Lovelock preaches, from the continuation of business as usual? The same psychopaths who led us into this abyss.

Why is Lovelock singing their song? Maybe because he is a 'made' man, he is inside the establishment and wealthy enough to look after his own, and doesn't want the plebs rocking any lifeboats.

Apathy is a sickness, alienation and internalised powerlessness writ large. This confirms for me that Lovelock has nothing further to offer.



at a certain point you have to let it go. do what you can do and enjoy what you have to enjoy. since the 60's there has been the call, they must have been screening, nobody answered! Or perhaps we have been so totally brainwashed that we only ask 'what can we do' instead of really doing anything. The women in africa marched on the oil companies to distribute monies from the oil wells that were polluting their water, they got some money, but clean water would have been better. It's a bought and sold system. We are both bought and sold.

sorry if it's a hard thing to hear, but it is what it is.
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby Nordic » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:15 am

wintler2 wrote:Who benefits from the apathy that Lovelock preaches, from the continuation of business as usual? The same psychopaths who led us into this abyss.

Why is Lovelock singing their song? Maybe because he is a 'made' man, he is inside the establishment and wealthy enough to look after his own, and doesn't want the plebs rocking any lifeboats.

Apathy is a sickness, alienation and internalised powerlessness writ large. This confirms for me that Lovelock has nothing further to offer.



Do you really think that people are gonna do anything? Do you seriously think that in a country where George Bush walks free, and Karl Rove is running around doing book-signings, and the rest of the cabal skates completely free and gets high-paying jobs at universities and think tanks, and nobody cares, in a country where people will shell out 5,000 bucks for a television set, that citizens are suddenly going to get up off their fat asses and do something to "save the planet?"

Please.

Nobody is going to do anything until it's far too late, until they are hungry, cut off, their power shut down, their TV's shut off, the gas stations empty of gas.

No.

Everybody has been warned, the information is out there, we've all known it for decades now, and yet the monster grows, the waste grows, the destruction grows, the population grows.

Lemmings.

People are NOT equipped to deal with this, he's absolutely right.
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby Seamus OBlimey » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:35 am

We've been told we're fucked since biblical times but, hey, let's just change the name of the planet and maybe noone will notice.
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby justdrew » Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:08 am

paraphrase of a quote I can't locate:

"if a respected old scientist says something can be done - believe him, but if he says something can't be done, he's probably wrong."


Seamus OBlimey wrote:We've been told we're fucked since biblical times but, hey, let's just change the name of the planet and maybe no one will notice.


Terra :|
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby Seamus OBlimey » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:59 am

Warren Terra?
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby swindled69 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:04 am

He's absolutely right and I have been living this way for quite some time. Find a safe place, hunker down and prepare and wait.

The key to survival isn't being self sufficient it's too accept your fate because you can't provide for yourself if you are in denial about what is going on around you.
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby Jeff » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:57 am

It's not apathy Lovelock's preaching. And he isn't much a preacher, though with sermons like enjoy life while you can I wouldn't mind joining his church.

IMO, Lovelock's practical pessimism is preferable to Gore's no-lightbulb-left-behindism, which largely lays responsibility at our composter and leaves the Satanic Mills unafflicted by systemic critique.

Read Herve Kempf's How the Rich Are Destroying the Earth. He joins Lovelock's premise neatly to a Left critique of despoiling oligarchy.

Naive comrades, there are evil men on Earth.

If one wants to be an ecologist, one must stop being a half-wit. Ecology totally overlooks social issues, that is, the relationships of power and wealth at the heart of societies. But symmetrically, the left overlooks, ecology...

Consequently, we find simpleminded ecologist - ecology with no social conscience - alongside a left stuck in the old days - social conscience with no ecology; and above them all the happy capitalists: "Speak, good people, and above all, remain divided."

We must get out of this space and understand that the ecological crisis and the social crisis are two faces of the same disaster. And this disaster is implemented by a system of power that has no other objective than to maintain the privileges of the ruling classes.
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby Avalon » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:00 am

"If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible, he is almost certainly right; but if he says that it is impossible, he is very probably wrong." --- Arthur C. Clarke
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby wintler2 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:12 am

Jeff wrote:..
IMO, Lovelock's practical pessimism is preferable to Gore's no-lightbulb-left-behindism, which largely lays responsibility at our composter and leaves the Satanic Mills unafflicted by systemic critique.


Jesus FUCKING christ, like they're the only two poles for how to act in the world?! Ever hear of EF Schumacher? Holmgren & Mollison? Vandana Shiva, the Zapatista's, landles peasant movements like the MST, the Peace Brigades, how long have you got? You're cherrypicking your data points Jeff, you naughty naughty man.

Herve Kempf wrote:..If one wants to be an ecologist, one must stop being a half-wit. Ecology totally overlooks social issues, that is, the relationships of power and wealth at the heart of societies. But symmetrically, the left overlooks, ecology.

Consequently, we find simpleminded ecologist - ecology with no social conscience - alongside a left stuck in the old days - social conscience with no ecology; and above them all the happy capitalists: "Speak, good people, and above all, remain divided."


Mainstream Left is profoundly ignorant of ecology, agreed. But to accuse ecologists of being apolitical is ignorant, as the very study of the dispossessed (all other species) is political. Ecology has been weak in contemporary politics because professional ecologists (of whom there are few) who get political end up as school teachers, if they're lucky. Most manager/bean counters and voters are still living in judeo-christian heads ("go forth and multiply.."), and thats not the fault of ecologists, thats one of the selection pressures they live in fear of. Most of the ecologists i have known are acutely politically aware and, as they see it, active in the best way available to them. They've had sweet fuck all backup from society at large is the problem, imho.

Herve Kempf wrote:We must get out of this space and understand that the ecological crisis and the social crisis are two faces of the same disaster.

Rhetorically true but physically false - the social problem is at much smaller scale than the ecological one/s. Sounds like yet another marxist trying to pin his tattered flag to the ecological mast.
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby wintler2 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:42 am

Nordic wrote:Do you really think that people are gonna do anything?

I don't need to think it, i know people who are.

Nordic wrote: Do you seriously think that in a country where George Bush walks free, and Karl Rove is running around doing book-signings, and the rest of the cabal skates completely free and gets high-paying jobs at universities and think tanks, and nobody cares, in a country where people will shell out 5,000 bucks for a television set, that citizens are suddenly going to get up off their fat asses and do something to "save the planet?"


Interesting that your anger has me saying USians will 'save the planet' - i haven't said anything that stupid in years.
1. the planet doesn't need saving, its not in any particular trouble. Humans and many many other species on the planet are, but we're not the planet.
2. I've never been to the US, never will, have no opinion nor particular interest in how pivotal a role that countrys citizens play in energy descent.
3. Your insistence that 'nobody cares' is unconvincing when there is abundant evidence that plenty of USians do care. The exaggeration makes it sound like you're a little invested in your position, fearful of it being challenged. What would it cost you to be wrong?
4. If you demand 'suddenly' solutions, you will be successful in supplying yourself with disappointment. Its taken millenia to get into this hole, we wont be out by the next ad break.


nordic wrote:Please.
Nobody is going to do anything until it's far too late, until they are hungry, cut off, their power shut down, their TV's shut off, the gas stations empty of gas.
No.
Everybody has been warned, the information is out there, we've all known it for decades now, and yet the monster grows, the waste grows, the destruction grows, the population grows.
Lemmings.
People are NOT equipped to deal with this, he's absolutely right.


I'm not equipped to deal with a road accident, so i shouldn't try to get out of a burning wreck? This is childish thinking, merely another form of denial, with the popular subtext - "get yours while you still can". Very sad, but unsurprising.

Meanwhile, those who don't get their life choices predigested by experts are busy building a peaceful, just and sustainable civilisation inside, alongside, anyhowside the shell of the old.
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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:58 am

Jeff wrote:Naive comrades, there are evil men on Earth.

If one wants to be an ecologist, one must stop being a half-wit. Ecology totally overlooks social issues, that is, the relationships of power and wealth at the heart of societies. But symmetrically, the left overlooks, ecology...

Consequently, we find simpleminded ecologist - ecology with no social conscience - alongside a left stuck in the old days - social conscience with no ecology; and above them all the happy capitalists: "Speak, good people, and above all, remain divided."

We must get out of this space and understand that the ecological crisis and the social crisis are two faces of the same disaster. And this disaster is implemented by a system of power that has no other objective than to maintain the privileges of the ruling classes.


What I'd change in that is the word conscience to consciouness. The moral failing isn't as great as the conditioned blindness to social reality, and the trained reluctance to attach accurate names to it because so many people don't want to hear that their society lives from self-cannibalistic principles and must be overthrown entirely or die. There is a deficit in social consciousness, an inability and taboos to link the systemic of political economy to the visible ecological and social realities, so that a knowing conscience cannot develop. Conscience is there. Any given horror can be seen and decried, the horrors can be summed up as parts and seem overwhelming, but don't talk about capitalism, system, class, because that is perceived to make you weak, ineffective, partisan, "ideological," radical, "left," too ambitious to accomplish anything.

And yeah, I'll take Lovelock over Gore, too, but how about a Lovelock who isn't a 90-year-old fart who no longer gives a shit, and cares only for how history will say he was right? (An attitude with its attractions even to a man exactly half his age, JackRiddler must admit, but that conscience and seriousness should tell us all to overcome.)

For starters I'll take the naivete of Yann Arthur-Bertrand at the end of his film, Home, which is probably the best big-picture film on the planet's ecological state I've ever seen. How is it a movie that shows overwhelming and undeniable evidence of how fucked everything is (with the most amazing aerial images taken by him in his little airplane over several years time) can fill me with such hope? Because of the emerging global consciousness of which it is but one sign.

The film might not have made sense to people not so many years ago, but no one today can watch it with open eyes and not understand it, or accept it as common sense. (Climate change isn't even mentioned in the first hour, by which time there's practically no longer a need.) Go ahead and sneer at any one of the examples he gives - the possibility of clean carbon or the hope vested in NGOs (there are really are millions of them, so don't cherrypick to generalize about the category as a whole). Pick out statements to contest (already in the beginning: the 'breaking' of 'those links' is a lot older than 'recent').

You may still see in it an implicit faith in capital, or what I believe is a reluctance to name it and decry it, and thus be too 'political' and be decried as a 'radical'.

The point is that ecological consciousness is emergent globally and big resources, so far woefully inadequate, are being mobilized by it - now it must become exponential and complete, without compromises:

We have created phenomena we cannot control. Since our origins, water, air and forms of life are intimately linked. But recently, we have broken those links.

Let's face the facts. We must believe what we know. All that we have just seen is a reflection of human behavior. We have shaped the Earth in our image. We have very little time to change. How can this century carry the burden of nine billion human beings... if we refuse to be called to account... for everything we alone have done?

The cost of our actions is high. Others pay the price without having been actively involved. I have seen refugee camps as big as cities, sprawling in the desert. How many men, women and children... will be left by the wayside tomorrow? Must we always build walls... to break the chain of human solidarity, separate peoples and protect the happiness of some from the misery of others?

It's too late to be a pessimist.

I know that a single human can knock down every wall. It's too late to be a pessimist. Worldwide, four children out of five attend school. Never has learning been given to so many human beings. Everyone, from richest to poorest, can make a contribution. Lesotho, one of the world's poorest countries, is proportionally the one that invests most in its people's education.

Qatar, one of the world's richest states, has opened its doors to the best universities. Culture, education, research and innovation are inexhaustible resources. In the face of misery and suffering, millions of N.G.O.'s prove that solidarity between peoples... is stronger than the selfishness of nations.

In Bangladesh, a man thought the unthinkable... and founded a bank that lends only to the poor. In barely thirty years, it has changed the lives... of one hundred fifty million people around the world.

Antarctica is a continent with immense natural resources... that no country can claim for itself, a natural reserve devoted to peace and science. A treaty signed by forty-nine states has made it a treasure shared by all humanity.

It's too late to be a pessimist.

Governments have acted to protect nearly two percent of the world's territorial waters. It's not much, but it's two times more than ten years ago. The first natural parks were created just over a century ago. They cover over thirteen percent of the continents. They create spaces where human activity is in step... with the preservation of species, soils and landscapes. This harmony between humans and nature can become the rule, no longer the exception.

In the United States, New York has realized that nature does for us. These forests and lakes supply all the drinking water the city needs.

In South Korea, the forests have been devastated by war. Thanks to a national reforestation program, they once more cover sixty-five percent of the country. More than seventy-five percent of paper is recycled.

Costa Rica has made a choice between military spending and the conservation of its lands. The country no longer has an army. It prefers to devote its resources to education, ecotourism... and the protection of its primary forest.

Gabon is one of the world's leading producers of wood. It enforces selective logging not more than one tree every hectare. Its forests are one of the country's most important economic resources, but they have the time to regenerate. Programs exist that guarantee sustainable forest management. They must become mandatory.

For consumers and producers, justice is an opportunity to be seized. When trade is fair, when both buyer and seller benefit, everybody can prosper and earn a decent living. How can there be justice and equity... between people whose only tools are their hands... and those who harvest their crops with a machine and state subsidies? Let's be responsible consumers. Think about what we buy.

It's too late to be a pessimist. I have seen agriculture on a human scale. It can feed the whole planet if meat production doesn't take the food out of people's mouths. I have seen fishermen who take care what they catch... and care for the riches of the ocean.

I have seen houses producing their own energy. Five thousand people live in the world's first ever eco-friendly district, in Freiburg, Germany. Other cities partner the project. Mumbai is the thousandth to join them.

The governments of New Zealand, Iceland, Austria, Sweden... and other nations have made the development... of renewable energy sources a top priority. I know that eighty percent of the energy we consume... comes from fossil energy sources.

Every week, two new coal-fired generating plants are built in China alone. But I have also seen, in Denmark, a prototype of a coal-fired plant... that releases its carbon into the soil rather than the air. A solution for the future? Nobody knows yet.

I have seen, in Iceland, an electricity plant powered by the Earth's heat - geothermal power. I have seen a sea snake lying on the swell... to absorb the energy of the waves and produce electricity. I have seen wind farms off the coast of Denmark... that produce twenty percent of the country's electricity.

The U.S.A., China, India, Germany and Spain... are the biggest investors in renewable energy. They have already created over two and a half million jobs.

Where on Earth doesn't the wind blow? I have seen desert expanses baking in the sun. Everything on Earth is linked, and the Earth is linked to the sun, its original energy source. Can humans not imitate plants and capture its energy? In one hour, the sun gives the Earth... the same amount of energy as that consumed by all humanity in one year. As long as the Earth exists, the sun's energy will be inexhaustible. All we have to do is stop drilling the Earth and start looking to the sky. All we have to do is learn to cultivate the sun.

All these experiments are only examples, but they testify to a new awareness. They lay down markers for a new human adventure... based on moderation, intelligence and sharing. It's time to come together. What's important is not what's gone, but what remains. We still have half the world's forests, thousands of rivers, lakes and glaciers... and thousands of thriving species. We know that the solutions are there today. We all have the power to change. So what are we waiting for?


Let's add these words, without the invective, since I suspect Jeff's answer is, yes.

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Re: Trying to save the planet 'is a lot of nonsense'

Postby Cosmic Cowbell » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:32 pm

Thanks Jack.

"There are no whole truths: all truths are half-truths. It is trying to treat them as whole truths that plays the devil." ~ A.N. Whitehead
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