Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby American Dream » Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:47 pm

TBS, I surely can't match your post for length and detail right now but a few quick points. I'm evolving all the time but I do support methods of organizing typified by the IWW, solidarity networks, and other such things. I support Palestinian solidarity work, antifascist efforts (though this is newly emerging for me- in good part due to jakell's efforts), and other such things. I have an ideological affinity toward things in the realm of class struggle anarchism and allied efforts though this is always in process and not a standing proposition.

As to Third Position Fascism and the like, yes it does often style itself along the lines of "Neither Right nor Left" but it is debatable how much any specific nazi/fascist type can be trusted to have a real ideological commitment toward this, that, or the other position, vs. a cynical appropriation from movements that are more popular and have cleaner PR. Thus a commitment to a non/anti-capitalist position is surely debatable and/or variable. The case of Troy Southgate is highly instructive in this regard.
Last edited by American Dream on Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby jakell » Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:50 pm

American Dream » Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:49 pm wrote:
Given that my last experience of TheBlackSheep was that of you (in effect) working together with jakell to put words in my mouth, i.e. to grossly misrepresent my position, maybe you could explain what you mean by, "in certain ways I don't disagree with the stance of anti-fascism" and what sort of politics you do support- and most especially, since you have effectively included jakell in this, what your thoughts are on Third Positionism/National Anarchism and all that neo-fascist shite...


Wow. This is just so fecked up. I'm having trouble getting my head around this, but all I can imagine is that you are thinking of ZombieGlenBeck and not TBS, and even then you had it wrong.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby jakell » Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:00 pm

Sounder » Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:01 pm wrote:
The trouble with having 'anti-fascism' as a stance is that 'fascism' itself is ill defined, it's usage in the world today is extremely broad and sloppy.

To be 'anti' something defines your dynamism, it is not a passive thing, and I would be very careful of subscribing to something that will lead you to be in opposition to a phantom, madness and obsession lay in that direction. In other words, it is more important to be clear about your oppositions, if you have any, than to be clear about your positive goals (which are also important).

There's also the fact that labeling yourself as an AF also feeds the human craving to see oneself as an actor in the Good/Evil dimension (nicely alluded to in your final sentence above), somewhere else where madness can lie


Bingo jakell, AD feeds empire by 'pumping the dichotomy'.

There can be no Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory that doesn't care to address the issue of how all of us are manipulated.

Let alone to think, as some surrealists do, that one must be on a particular team to be able to do anything rigorous.


It looks here like you are trying to address the original content of the thread, which I also tried to continue with a little while back. Unfortunateley, the thread originator seems to have decided it's going to be like all his other ones for the time being

Hopefully we'll get back to it at some point because it is potentially a fruitful subject.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby peartreed » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:39 pm

The pointless petty pedantics between the opponents in this ongoing argument have become so ponderously pervasive that the weight of ennui has overpowered all possible intrigue with any outcome except its cessation.

It is intellectual drip torture – a slow cascade of caustic dribblings upon prone points of long-lost interest. When you two ever come to realize the endless exhaustion of your argument, take away the lesson that your every uttering of imagined counterpoints ad infinitum is egregiously exhausting to the few left following your droning, deleterious, ultimately immature, egocentric and daft debate. For mercy’s sake alone, please withdraw forthwith and treat your fingertips to a keyboard break. We will compost your compositions to fuel a bonfire to your vanities and the vacuum of value you’ve invested in that ever-elusive final victory.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby jakell » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:45 pm

Not another 'we'
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby jakell » Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:08 pm

Ok. For any superior beings looking in, who unaccountably find themselves at a loss. Here are two possible courses of action to find positives in a thread that they may find lacking (there are more, but I'm keeping it simple)

1) If you find the subject stale and lacklustre, find the metasubject. If you don't know what one of these is, consider the reason you feel piqued, or even better, whatever motivates you to post concerning this. Then post concerning your 'metasubject'.

2) Consider the thread topic, and then go back a little way until you find the point of departure, and revitalise it. If this coincides in some way with your 'metasubject', then you're really cooking, so go for it.


In the present context, a point of departure could possibly be found following either of these two posts (for instance):

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?p=537919#p537919

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=37774&start=210#p538205
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby Luther Blissett » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:16 pm

I guess I see anti-fascism as a bigger part of the question than most. It should actually be a fairly broad expression in current day.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby jakell » Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:36 pm

Luther Blissett » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:16 am wrote:I guess I see anti-fascism as a bigger part of the question than most. It should actually be a fairly broad expression in current day.


A catch-all label for a wide variety of bad stuff is not a bad idea in the abstract, it just starts to creak and groan when one tries to turn it into practical action, at which point most people's instinct is to try and break it down further anyway.

I think the real problem with this particular f-word is it's historical baggage. In a thread specifically relating to this I said that we try and make it do far too much work.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby Luther Blissett » Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:59 pm

I don't see it as a catch-all black-and-white good-vs-evil term. While I appreciate that it is notoriously difficult to define, anti-fascism is a humanitarian response to the elements beyond discrimination on the pyramid of hate. Or maybe even including some of the elements of discrimination for all I know.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby jakell » Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:55 pm

Luther Blissett » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:59 am wrote:I don't see it as a catch-all black-and-white good-vs-evil term. While I appreciate that it is notoriously difficult to define, anti-fascism is a humanitarian response to the elements beyond discrimination on the pyramid of hate. Or maybe even including some of the elements of discrimination for all I know.


If something is notoriously difficult to define, then it is also very difficult to put into practice**, to the extent that it is not really a functional position, but more of a 'feelgood' position. I think it is this feelgood element that produces an emotional attachment just as the term 'fascist' also produces an emotional response.

**I have discussed practical anti-fascism several times and regard the term 'anti' as designating dynamism, ie not simply an attitude. An anti-fascist is a soldier IMO, and a soldier fighting an ill defined enemy is either extremely likely to fail, or basically deluded.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby American Dream » Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:32 pm

This article is long, but well worth the effort:

Two Ways of Looking at Fascism

Posted on March 8, 2011
by Matthew Lyons


Introduction

Fascism is an important political category, but a confusing one. People use the word fascism in many different ways, and often without a clear sense of what it means.

Political events since the September 11, 2001, attacks have raised the issue of fascism in new ways. People on both the right and the left have described Islamic rightist forces such as al Qaeda and the Taliban as fascist -– but for very different reasons. Neoconservatives and Bush administration officials have denounced “Islamofascists” to help justify the so-called war on terrorism and the military occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. By contrast, some leftists describe some of these same groups as fascist -– not to rationalize U.S. expansion, but to highlight the fact that there are major political forces today that are deadly enemies of both the left and U.S. imperialism.

At the same time, a number of liberals and leftists have warned that the United States itself is headed in a fascist direction. As I’ve argued elsewhere, the Bush administration’s authoritarian and militaristic policies are a serious threat, but they’re a world apart from fascism’s volatile mix of oppression and anti-elitism, order and insurgency. Fascism doesn’t just terrorize and repress; it uses twisted versions of radical politics in a bid to “take the game away from the left,” as neonazi leader Tom Metzger urged his followers in the 1980s. We need different strategies to fight these different forms of right-wing authoritarianism, and we need a political vocabulary that lets us tell them apart.1

Claims of impending fascism tend to reflect two underlying problems. The first is the idea that fascism is essentially a tool or strategy of big business to defend capitalist rule, and the second is vagueness about what delineates fascism from other forms of capitalist repression. We can see both of these problems in pronouncements from several different U.S. leftist organizations (such as the Communist Party, Socialist Workers Party, Revolutionary Communist Party, and Socialist Labor Party), in leftist and left-liberal media organs such as CounterPunch and Common Dreams, and in numerous websites and online discussions among U.S. activists.2

A recent sophisticated example of both problems comes from Marxist academicians Gregory Meyerson and Michael Joseph Roberto. In an October 2006 Monthly Review article, “It Could Happen Here,” they argue that “fascism is a plausible response by the U.S. bourgeoisie to the general crisis of Pax Americana” and, although the outcome of the crisis remains unclear, “evidence is mounting for what we are calling a fascist trajectory.” Meyerson and Roberto see fascism as an intrinsic structural tendency of capitalism in crisis, a form of rule that is promoted strictly from the top down. “Only the ruling class can institute fascist processes,” they argue. Although they acknowledge the existence of fascist movements, “the Marxist view,” they claim, “does not focus primarily on fascist mass movements because they are not primary engines of fascism.”3

Even if we accept this concept of fascism (and of Marxism), Meyerson and Roberto never explain concretely what they mean by fascist rule. They emphasize that fascism needs to be understood in functional terms, as a form of capitalist rule in crisis, and they criticize descriptive definitions of fascism on the grounds that these obscure its changing historical character. A U.S. fascist trajectory “will look quite different from past fascist trajectories,” and will “unfold in a bipartisan context, liberals and conservatives acting in concert -– the whole ruling class.” But since Meyerson and Roberto don’t tell us what fascism will look like, how will we know it’s happening? The substance of their argument seems to be that the growing crisis may persuade most representatives of capital that they need to establish a much more repressive and authoritarian state. This is a serious and wholly justified concern, but it’s a simple point that doesn’t require elaborate arguments about functionalism and structural tendencies. And we gain nothing, but lose much, by calling the result fascism.

The concept of fascism is indeed highly relevant for analyzing current political threats, but not in the way that Meyerson and Roberto maintain. Fascism can help us understand a range of political phenomena that the U.S. ruling class didn’t initiate and does not control. These phenomena are part of a crisis that goes far beyond the decline of U.S. global hegemony and the American welfare state, to include the following:

- across eastern Europe and northern Asia, the collapse of the Soviet bloc, followed in many countries by a drastic decline of living standards and the rise of large-scale criminality and a host of right-wing nationalist movements

- in many parts of Asia, Africa, and Latin America, the cooptation or defeat of revolutionary leftist insurgencies and governments and the growth of diverse populist or religious-based oppositional forces

- in much of the world, the acceleration of capitalist globalization dynamics such as capital flight, international mass migration, commodification of women’s labor, the growth of international mass culture, and the erosion of traditional local institutions –- and the upsurge of ambivalent or hostile responses to all of these from various points on the political spectrum.

In this volatile mix, fascism is an important reference point -– not just as a developed political force but also as a tendency or potential within broader movements. It is both distinct from and at odds with top-down capitalist authoritarianism. In addition, while fascism takes shape in a capitalist context, it isn’t a functional consequence of capitalist development, analogous (as Meyerson and Roberto suggest) to imperialism. Rather, it is a political current, which -– like socialism, liberalism, or conservatism –- embodies its own set of ideas, policies, organizational forms, and bases of support. Like all major political currents, fascism exists in multiple variations and evolves dynamically to address new historical conditions. This means that no definition of fascism is the one true, final answer. But defining –- or at least describing –- fascism can help us to grasp fascism’s key features, delineate its relationship with other forces, and explore how it develops and how it can be fought.

Unlike many discussions among left activists in the United States today, this essay offers a concept of fascism that speaks to its double-edged reality –- bolstering oppression and tyranny but also tapping into real popular grievances and overturning old conventions and forms of rule. To do this, I bring together two distinct but complementary approaches. First, I draw on a current within Marxist thought that emphasizes fascism’s contradictory relationship with the capitalist class. As a movement or a regime, fascism attacks the left and defends class exploitation but also pursues an agenda that clashes with capitalist interests in important ways. Since the 1920s, several independent Marxists have analyzed fascism along these lines; I will look specifically at the work of August Thalheimer, Tim Mason, Mihaly Vajda, Don Hamerquist, and J. Sakai.

These writers are strong in analyzing fascism’s class politics –- its relationship with capital and other class forces, its roots in capitalist crisis, and its impact on the socioeconomic order. They are weaker in discussing fascist ideology, which is important for positioning fascism within the political right and for understanding why people -– sometimes millions of people –- are attracted to fascist movements. To address these issues, I draw on the work of Roger Griffin, a non-leftist scholar who has done pathbreaking work on fascist ideology over the past two decades. Griffin treats fascism as a form of revolutionary nationalism that attacks both the left and liberal capitalist values, an approach that resonates strongly with some of the most promising leftist discussions of fascism. Griffin’s focus on ideology neglects fascism’s structural dimensions but offers a helpful complement to a class-centered analysis.

The body of this essay is divided into three parts. First, I discuss the work of several independent Marxists who have grappled with fascism’s relationship with capitalism, from Thalheimer’s “Bonapartism” theory to Hamerquist and Sakai’s treatments of fascism as a right-wing revolutionary movement. Next I explore Griffin’s ideology-centered approach, particularly his argument that fascism represents a blend of populist ultranationalism and a myth of collective rebirth. Lastly, I offer a new draft definition of fascism that incorporates aspects of both approaches, and discuss how this stereoscopic vision can help us understand fascist movements and tendencies today.


Continues at: http://sdonline.org/47/two-ways-of-looking-at-fascism/
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby Zombie Glenn Beck » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:33 am

peartreed » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:39 pm wrote:The pointless petty pedantics between the opponents in this ongoing argument have become so ponderously pervasive that the weight of ennui has overpowered all possible intrigue with any outcome except its cessation.

It is intellectual drip torture – a slow cascade of caustic dribblings upon prone points of long-lost interest. When you two ever come to realize the endless exhaustion of your argument, take away the lesson that your every uttering of imagined counterpoints ad infinitum is egregiously exhausting to the few left following your droning, deleterious, ultimately immature, egocentric and daft debate. For mercy’s sake alone, please withdraw forthwith and treat your fingertips to a keyboard break. We will compost your compositions to fuel a bonfire to your vanities and the vacuum of value you’ve invested in that ever-elusive final victory.


So in other words, when are these two just going to fuck already?
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:30 am

To try to bring it back to the original post and to respond to some recent posts: my personal brand of "conspiracy theory" is influenced by the likes of
Guy DeBord
CrimethInc
Kropotkin
Durruti Column
riot grrrl
Kara Walker
C86
Tony Benn
two tone
Sun Ra
Sitting Bull
The Masses
Angela Davis
The Adjusters
and of course, Luther Blissett

These influences obviously do not come together to form one specific radical anarchist line of thinking, but at the same time I now comfortably self-identify as an anarchist. If anything, I was pushed there by the circumstances of time, aging, and world events. The democratic socialism of my teenage years just didn't make sense anymore - there are fewer democratic socialist spaces, I recognized the fault in any ideological cage, and the ideology didn't respond to contemporary problems.

I recognize that superficially, anarchism appears to be just more of the same, and can be in many ways. What the term provides is a semiotic shorthand for my real-life activism and organization, and I think some of the longer essays on the last two pages of this thread have done a good job of rehashing those old arguments. The most important point is of course that this is a capsule for class agitation in a world where that exists less and less through pacification, propaganda, and anti-intellectualism.

I've never met an anarchist who thinks like me or who came from a similar set of experiences. If anything, I am an outcast. It's not about seeking out a sense of belonging, since I clearly don't. It has more to do with what might be one of the better responses to the challenges posed to the human condition in 2014.

What room do my experiences and influences leave for voices in conspiracy theory who openly endorse or who indirectly leave the door open for hatred of an already oppressed group? I've read Marrs, Cooper, Icke, Rense and others; there's plenty in there that is factually correct (I don't think anyone is arguing against that), but I also recognized quickly that many of their sights were set in the wrong place. What I do see in a lot of conspiracy literature that I don't agree with are entry points where hatred, racism, xenophobia, advocacy for genocide etc. can all take root in one's psyche. At basically what the "pyramid of hate" illustrates. To contrast, I feel like my interests have more to do with love and peace, not being a soldier in a black-and-white war.

At its essential core, my question is: do I want to square my efforts at institutions of real power, or do I want to waste time in the abstract in spaces where people with conscious or unconscious agendas live chasing logical fallacies and privileged attacks on oppressed and marginalized people?
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby jakell » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:04 am

Luther Blissett » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:30 am wrote:To try to bring it back to the original post and to respond to some recent posts: my personal brand of "conspiracy theory" is influenced by the likes of
Guy DeBord
CrimethInc
Kropotkin
Durruti Column
riot grrrl
Kara Walker
C86
Tony Benn
two tone
Sun Ra
Sitting Bull
The Masses
Angela Davis
The Adjusters
and of course, Luther Blissett

These influences obviously do not come together to form one specific radical anarchist line of thinking, but at the same time I now comfortably self-identify as an anarchist. If anything, I was pushed there by the circumstances of time, aging, and world events. The democratic socialism of my teenage years just didn't make sense anymore - there are fewer democratic socialist spaces, I recognized the fault in any ideological cage, and the ideology didn't respond to contemporary problems.

I recognize that superficially, anarchism appears to be just more of the same, and can be in many ways. What the term provides is a semiotic shorthand for my real-life activism and organization, and I think some of the longer essays on the last two pages of this thread have done a good job of rehashing those old arguments. The most important point is of course that this is a capsule for class agitation in a world where that exists less and less through pacification, propaganda, and anti-intellectualism.

I've never met an anarchist who thinks like me or who came from a similar set of experiences. If anything, I am an outcast. It's not about seeking out a sense of belonging, since I clearly don't. It has more to do with what might be one of the better responses to the challenges posed to the human condition in 2014.

What room do my experiences and influences leave for voices in conspiracy theory who openly endorse or who indirectly leave the door open for hatred of an already oppressed group? I've read Marrs, Cooper, Icke, Rense and others; there's plenty in there that is factually correct (I don't think anyone is arguing against that), but I also recognized quickly that many of their sights were set in the wrong place. What I do see in a lot of conspiracy literature that I don't agree with are entry points where hatred, racism, xenophobia, advocacy for genocide etc. can all take root in one's psyche. At basically what the "pyramid of hate" illustrates. To contrast, I feel like my interests have more to do with love and peace, not being a soldier in a black-and-white war.

At its essential core, my question is: do I want to square my efforts at institutions of real power, or do I want to waste time in the abstract in spaces where people with conscious or unconscious agendas live chasing logical fallacies and privileged attacks on oppressed and marginalized people?


This was really the central issue of the early part of the thread. Whether fruit can only be borne by 'working' with those who are ideologically very close to us, or accepting a wider base.
Here, like me, you have no real choice anyway. In recognising your uniqueness, there is no realistic possibilty of the former.

In the second to last paragraph, you talk of my 'soldier' metaphor. This was really intended to focus on the casual usage of 'anti-fascist'. It is better not to be a soldier than to borrow the clothes, I am no longer one of these, and have further described the important distinction (IMO) here:

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=22490&start=510#p535750


In the last paragraph, I do not think there is really the option to do just one or the other. In real life, the two can seem to separate momentarily but always seem to come back together. In cyberspace, this connection is broken to a degree, it is different, and that is why I have been exploring that in particular.
I think this brief inhabitation of cyberspace that we have engineered is just a temporary thing though, and is basically an oddity, I will give it a couple of decades max and it's quality is noticeably degrading already. The we will be back to the former realm.
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Re: Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

Postby Sounder » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:52 am

What room do my experiences and influences leave for voices in conspiracy theory who openly endorse or who indirectly leave the door open for hatred of an already oppressed group? I've read Marrs, Cooper, Icke, Rense and others; there's plenty in there that is factually correct (I don't think anyone is arguing against that), but I also recognized quickly that many of their sights were set in the wrong place. What I do see in a lot of conspiracy literature that I don't agree with are entry points where hatred, racism, xenophobia, advocacy for genocide etc. can all take root in one's psyche. At basically what the "pyramid of hate" illustrates. To contrast, I feel like my interests have more to do with love and peace, not being a soldier in a black-and-white war.


I think that every poster here recognizes that the authors you mentioned have their sights set in the wrong place. Yet this does not preclude the notion that folk on the left do not also have their sights set in the wrong place. As far as ‘entry points’ go; we may not see those things till later when they hit their full bloom. So if subtext in secular humanism --> skepticism --> materialism --> neo-liberal globalism, one might reasonably decide that, at this point in the evolution of social consciousness, national boundaries protect the general population better than will bureaucrats from Brussels.

At its essential core, my question is: do I want to square my efforts at institutions of real power, or do I want to waste time in the abstract in spaces where people with conscious or unconscious agendas live chasing logical fallacies and privileged attacks on oppressed and marginalized people?


You or I may want to square our efforts at institutions of real power, but ‘real power’ has myriad ways for deflecting threats onto minions and away from ‘real power’.

We are wasting time.

For me, ‘real power’ lies in our collective conceptual structures; this might also be called our dominant narrative or cultural structural framework.

There are a lot of reputations, both left and right, riding on the maintenance of this ‘real power’.
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