Do you believe in God?

[FourthBase]

(Goose)bump.

[H_C_E]

What do we mean by "God"?

It's a closed concept. No new conceptualization can be applied.

HCE

[kool maudit]

it wouldn't be exactly correct to say i believe in "god" - that tainted, overindividuated thing - but i believe in the reality of his country, the realm he is meant to inhabit.

[Wilbur Whatley]

Yes, of course. I'm Catholic. I recite the Creed at Mass every week. I believe it.

The possibility that the atheists might be correct hit me over the head like a hammer when I was in 7th grade. It blew my brains so bad I actually spent some time banging my head against the floor.

Worked my way back to faith, which is bruised but deep and practical.

This won't be a popular opinion here, but I've come to think that it is kind of middlebrow to hold oneself up above the religious. I take it as a sign of limited experience and insight. In my own rather broad experience of the world, including people from scores of countries, I observe that the smartest and wisest people nearly always believe in God.

[KeenInsight]

"Do you believe in God?"

If God's an Alien, sure, why not .

[kool maudit]

I've come to think that it is kind of middlebrow to hold oneself up above the religious.

i agree. not that atheism itself is not a defensible stance, but the continual and overbearing drone about pink unicorns and religious wars might have lost the race a bit.

it's unthoughtful, and militant in a kind of middle-class, 1970s dormroom way.

[FourthBase]

If I believe in God, it's a God I would never just merely believe.

Whatever God or good gods exist, surely they only want to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves to help us help ourselves...

And if I believe in God, then it's a God that exists in every one of us, every living thing, every dead thing. And it wouldn't be a God that is trapped inside everything forever, silent. It'd be a God that reveals itself in mysterious and absolutely crazy ways EDIT:, as well as totally comprehensible ways. It'd be a God that anyone and everyone can be...and probably must be.

And if whatever God actually exists doesn't conform to all that?
Then that God can go to fucking hell.

Capiche?

[kool maudit]

Then that God can go to fucking hell.

Capiche?

i have heard a lot of stuff like this. i hope you are 25 or under.

[FourthBase]

Then that God can go to fucking hell.

Capiche?

i have heard a lot of stuff like this. i hope you are 25 or under.

Oh, you're lecturing me. How cute.

[kool maudit]

i'm not going to get into it with you, this is my last post regarding this back-and-forth.

thread on.

[marmot]

I Believe in God the Father Almighty
Maker of heaven and earth

And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost
Born of the Virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate
Was crucified, dead, and buried
The third day he rose again from the dead
He ascended into heaven
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead

I believe in the Holy Spirit
The holy Catholic Church
The Communion of Saints
The Forgiveness of sins
The Resurrection of the body
And the Life everlasting
Amen

[FourthBase]

I Believe in God the Father Almighty
Maker of heaven and earth

And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost
Born of the Virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate
Was crucified, dead, and buried
The third day he rose again from the dead
He ascended into heaven
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead

I believe in the Holy Spirit
The holy Catholic Church
The Communion of Saints
The Forgiveness of sins
The Resurrection of the body
And the Life everlasting
Amen

And if that's your way of addressing God, who am I to judge? Who is anyone?

[OP ED]

The persecutor of God. -- Paul thought up the idea and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God: heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God.

from Nietzsche's The Wanderer and his Shadow

[FourthBase]

The persecutor of God. -- Paul thought up the idea and Calvin rethought it, that for innumerable people damnation has been decreed from eternity, and that this beautiful world plan was instituted to reveal the glory of God: heaven and hell and humanity are thus supposed to exist - to satisfy the vanity of God! What cruel and insatiable vanity must have flared in the soul of the man who thought this up first, or second. Paul has remained Saul after all - the persecutor of God.

from Nietzsche's The Wanderer and his Shadow

Damn straight. But let's give Paul/Saul a break, anyway.

[Wilbur Whatley]

marmot quotes the famous and very righteous Apostles' Creed, instead of the wordier and more abstract Nicene Creed that is now said in Catholic Churches around the world. But it's the same thing. And I say: Amen.

As for the discussion of Paul and Nietzsche (one of those names where you always have to check the spelling he he), I'm on the side of Paul, although he usually annoys the dickens out of me.

Paul's letters, which are read constantly in Christian churches, are about the densest and weirdest and hardest to read passages ever written. For decades I thought it was my problem. Over the last few years I've started thinking it was Paul's problem. Oh forgive me Jesus, but I just don't like the writings of St. Paul.

But Nietzsche. Oh don't get me started. He was a major asshole and liar, although a very tragic figure. I've been mentioning him in poems of mine for the last 40 years, usually as an object of pity. Late in life, totally insane and demented from untreated syphilis, he was found embracing a broken down old nag (horse) in Turin, Italy, weeping and praying. His devoted sister protected him as best she could for years after that, although he had totally lost his mind, and she brilliantly edited all his books. His sister Elisabeth is more responsible for his current canon than he is.

I was in a top-level graduate seminar on Nietzsche one time (in a doctoral program in philosophy), with a world-famous Nietzsche scholar as the professor. One session, after about half an hour, the bullshit overcame me and I blurted out loudly: Nietzsche is a liar! This didn't help me in that course, but I still believe it.

I've never understood why he was treated as a serious philosopher. I own about 6 or 7 of his books, and have read most of them, and I think it's crap from start to finish.

And, after all, it is said to have led to the Nazis.