Do you believe in God?

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Postby Wilbur Whatley » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:29 pm

yathrib writes:

"I have a serious question and no one seemed to want to take it on when this thread first emerged in March. But here it is again. For any Bible believers out there, from the most literal on down: What is it about the God of the Bible, particularly the O.T., that gives you the idea that he is good, kind, merciful, etc? Even in the NT we have a god who requires the brutal death of his son to feel a little more forgiving. Can someone *please* explain this to me? I'm not being snarky or sarcastic."

This is by FAR the most serious question posted on this thread. I am far too flawed with sin and confusion to give a proper answer, but it would be good if some of the believers here could take a shot at this. This is the very core of it.

yathrib, my own central answer to that is that I have been blessed with several miracles when I was surrounded and lifted up by the love of God so intensely that I almost fainted. One time I did faint. It is impossible for one person, like you, to believe in God based on the personal testimony of just one person, like me. I understand that completely. But I know what I know.

If one hears such testimony and is interested, one can start reading about mysticism and faith. Read William James on The varieties of Religious Experience. Read on mysticism in all cultures, not just Christian.

If you're concerned about the violence in the Bible, as any rational human being should be, read people like C.S. Lewis. Or St. Augustine's Confessions if you have a strong spirit.

Don't fall for shallow criticisms. Take time. Read the Bible yourself.

I know for a fact that a loving universal God exists. I know this more firmly than any other fact. I would die for this belief. At the same time, I understand how hard it is for people to approach this if they have not had the same experiences I have had. I don't have a special gift of communication in this area, unfortunately.

I guess my bottom line on this is: if you haven't already done so, try some deep meditation tradition. Sufi or Zen stuff would work. There are 100 or more varieties. I recommend Transcendental Meditation, which is sort of fast food of meditation, but IT WORKS!!!! You go to their lessons, listen sincerely to their instruction, practice for just a few weeks or months, and YOU WILL SUDDENLY EXPERIENCE TRANSCENDENCE, which is the infinite sea of God's love.

Listen to the song "Sea of Love" by Stevie Winwood and Eric Clapton (Derek and the Dominoes album) to get a taste of that.

So much more to say, but I'll stop now.

P.S. I've mentioned in other notes that I'm sick and have a lot of anger about a lot of things. I'm a sinner. It doesn't discount the above. It just makes a more complicated whole.
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Postby Wilbur Whatley » Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:52 pm

marmot, heh heh, I don't know whether to call you Niece or Nephew. You need a loan?

Yep, I thought that was what you were probably asking when you said "school," but I deliberately ducked to preserve my privacy.

I did most of my reading at a top 10 university, but I'd rather not say. I never got a Master's in philosophy. Nonetheless, due to a sharp tongue at the time, I was accepted into the Ph.D. program in philosophy at the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C. under the tutelage of the great Jude Dougherty, which I think is the best school of philosophy in North America. However, very soon thereafter, I had a remarkable mystical experience that led me back to law school.

I think God was not as impressed with my intellect as I was, but figured out a way for me to do some good.
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Postby bks » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:25 am

Marmot: Temple U.
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a Christian Worldview

Postby marmot » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:00 am

.. My answer to yathrib will be based on my own Xn worldview.
.. So I thought I'd, first, post some critical thoughts concerning it.

. . Image

. . a Christian Worldview

By God’s design, people as thinking, feeling, and willing beings cannot function without a governing frame of reference to help them understand life and find their way in the world. That is exactly what a worldview is and does. It provides answers to our deepest questions, and like an internal compass, it serves as our guide to life.

-David Naugle


What is a worldview? A worldview is one’s comprehensive appreciation of reality, the interpretative framework through which we make sense of the universe and our place in it; it is the dynamic lens through which we perceive, interpret and live out reality; it is our scheme for being, an internal schematic or map for navigating the complexities of life. We each have a worldview, a set of values, attitudes, meanings and beliefs we hold true concerning the nature of reality.

What is central to a Christian worldview is the belief in a Creator God who has revealed Himself (His Identity and Desire) in both the Bible and in the person of Jesus Christ. Appreciating the full deity and humanity of Jesus is essential to a Christian worldview. The Bible, moreover, declares that Jesus Himself is the basis of reality, that the universe itself was made through Him (see John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17; and Hebrews 1:2).


What is the difference between worldview and reality?
Strictly speaking, there are as many worldviews as there are thoughtful persons. Every one of us has a unique standpoint on the world; no one else (as Wilbur said above) can completely share our distinct perspective and experiences of life.

Essentially, a worldview is a mental construct, an image of the world; it is not the objective world, but merely a subjective appreciation of reality. If I were to believe that the sun revolves around the earth, this belief doesn’t make it so. My worldview doesn't necessitate reality. In other words, the way I view things doesn’t necessarily determine that the world is the way I want or believe it to be.

My thoughts haven’t the power to dictate reality. For example, if I were an atheist: just because my worldview negates the existence of God doesn’t mean 'there is no God.' If I were a materialist and 'blind' to the reality of spirit beings (such as angels or demons), just because I can’t see them or believe in them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. No matter what we think, or how we spin things, ultimate reality is determined by God alone, governed by His spiritual, physical and universal laws.


Again, reality is not determined by my view of it. Or is it? Francis Schaeffer (the atheist philosopher turned Christian theologian) brings our attention to one grand example of an idea which changed the entire world—the Hegelian dialectic. Hegel’s dialectical approach to reality as it was reworked by Marx and others brought communism to the world. [[And curiously, my philosopher friends, Karl Popper held the Hegelian dialectic as responsible for fostering totalitarian modes of thought—particularly fascism.]] As we know, Lenin and Mao shaped the views of Marxism into their own peculiar ideological systems under which countless millions have suffered and died. So with this, it seems true that our ideas and views of reality do affect the world. Various communist worldviews have detrimentally determined the reality of life for over a third of the world’s population.

As individuals or nations, our beliefs affect our behaviors which, in turn, affect our world. Whether we act on the basis of truth or lies, our actions have powerful, often unforeseen and far-reaching consequences. This is the power of being human—the power to impact reality for good or evil, the power to change the world.

Being human, we are social beings, members of societies [[btw, I subscribe to a processive-relational view of the self]]. Over and above our individual worldviews are societal worldviews which, by institutional means, serve to authoritatively construct for us the ‘real’ story of how and why things are the way they are.

Jeremy Rifkins observes: 'The most interesting aspect of a society’s world view is that its individual adherents are, for the most part, unconscious of how it affects the way they do things and how they perceive the reality around them. A world view is successful to the extent that it is so internalized, from childhood on, that it goes unquestioned.’

Reality is too huge and complex for me to comprehend—in its wholeness. However, to the degree that I presently understand the world—this is my worldview. It is my ever-developing story for how everything is connected, my sum total of understandings which organizes and gives meaning to my life, to my actions, to the world. As I am a work-in-progress, so is my worldview; and I must realize that my understanding of the world is partial and imperfect. 'Now we see through a glass darkly.'


Consider the magnitude of the universe. How far can the Hubble Space Telescope peer into the depths of the universe? How far can our own eyes peer into the surface appearance of things? ‘Indeed, these are the mere edges of His ways.’ Can I really see the activity of quarks and leptons in the flesh of my hand? Honestly, no. The reality of the universe is far greater than my grasp of it.

We look to experts for understanding. Should we not look foremost to the One who created the universe, who created our sun and earth and 'all we like sheep' for understanding.

It is my position that a proper Christian worldview is unequivocally a Biblical worldview. For the Bible, as God’s revelation to man, answers the biggest questions of life: Where did I come from? What is man? Why am I here? How am I to direct myself? What is my destiny? Is there life after death? Why does an all-good and all-loving God allow evil and suffering to exist? Why on earth would he send His own Son to die a bloody death on a cross?

It even answers the questions other worldviews lack the framework to consider. Hebrews 11:6a says that ‘by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God.’ By faith we understand also that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, it is the lamp which lights our way (Psalms 119:105).


In April of 1990 the Hubble Space Telescope was launched into orbit above the distorting effects of Earth’s atmosphere giving the world an unprecedented view of the universe. Eighteen some years later—with Hubble nearing the end of her career—she is still capturing and sending us images after spectacular images of galaxies, nebulae, quasars, and other astronomical objects from the most wondrous reaches of space. [[It has peered back into time when the universe was only five percent of its present age. The latest estimates of the age of the universe, according to the current theoretical model for measuring space and time, is about 13.7 billion years—give or take 200 million.]] Hubble has been a powerful instrument in proving and solving many theories and mysteries of the universe, as well as generating for scientists even more questions for the next generation of space telescopes to address.

Hubble, in terms of both time and money, was a very expensive telescope. So there was a great deal of excitement in the scientific community over her successful launch. However, when the scientists back on earth began receiving Hubble’s first images they immediately discovered something critically wrong with their telescope. Hubble was relaying back blurred and fuzzy images.

The imaging problem was traced to the telescope’s primary mirror—it was the wrong shape.

It had taken years of precision to curve and polish the primary mirror to its present shape, and although the error in its construction was ever so slight—so slight that the flaw couldn’t have been detected with the human eye—nevertheless, it was significant enough to throw all the captured light of the universe out of focus. So a set of corrective lens were made and later installed in the Hubble Telescope enabling us to receive the sharp, clear images we do today, such as the amazing light echo image posted above of a 2002 outburst of Milky Way star V838.


The Hubble mistake illustrates for us the importance of having a properly shaped worldview. Our worldview is our lens on the world, the perceptual apparatus through which the issues and meanings of life come into focus. For Christians, the Bible is the mirror that God has given us to reflect and focus the Light of Life into our hearts, into the world: 'let your light so shine.'

As Christians—believers in Jesus Christ—we have the Holy Spirit living within us. And this same Spirit who inspired the writings of Scripture is the same One who will enlighten us to the meaning of the Word of God. The Bible is God’s view, His articulated plan and purpose for the world. Now, if the world is wrong about God, it will most certainly be wrong about itself, about man.

If our mirror on the world is warped, our view of life, consequently, will be fuzzy and out of focus.


marmot
Last edited by marmot on Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby marmot » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:26 am

Wilbur Whatley wrote:marmot... You need a loan?

nope... just lookin for a handout!
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Postby Wilbur Whatley » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:05 am

marmot, brilliant and wise post. Thank you.

Your picture is of V838 Monocerotis, which is quite famous. It might have been cool to mention that detail. I found it pretty quick since I read several astronomy sites.

Oh, I have a hundred things to say but I'll save them.

Jeff, if you see this, thanks for a nice open forum.

It's a great relief that orthodox Catholics, who are educated and also have a taste of the weird, can find common discussion with heathens, pagans, skeptics, non-Catholics, Republicans, orcs, and folks of every persuasion. In short, I love this forum and thank you for it.
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Postby Sounder » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:13 pm

I love God with all my heart, but I have a hard time saying that I 'believe' in God. I take the position that "God" is beyond category and cannot be put in a category to be used by believers.

marmot wrote....

The Hubble mistake illustrates for us the importance of having a properly shaped worldview. Our worldview is our lens on the world, the perceptual apparatus through which the issues and meanings of life come into focus. For Christians, the Bible is the mirror that God has given us to reflect and focus the Light of Life into our hearts, into the world: 'let your light so shine.'

As Christians—believers in Jesus Christ—we have the Holy Spirit living within us. And this same Spirit who inspired the writings of Scripture is the same One who will enlighten us to the meaning of the Word of God. The Bible is God’s view, His articulated plan and purpose for the world. Now, if the world is wrong about God, it will most certainly be wrong about itself, about man.

If our mirror on the world is warped, our view of life, consequently, will be fuzzy and out of focus.


It seems that by these words the Bible interpreters are warping the mirror that is the Bible. (Because the 'Christian' worldview fucks with the world, (read; brutally kills) as much as any of the modern stupid ideologies). Ah hey, but what the fuck, at least you have a worldview to be 'comfortable' with.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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He believes in you!

Postby marmot » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:35 pm

Sounder wrote:I love God with all my heart, but I have a hard time saying that I 'believe' in God.

Two quotes from The Count of Monte Cristo (2002)

James Caviezel (who later played Jesus in The Passion of the Christ) has the role of Edmond Dantes, an innocent man thrown into prison who meets the old priest Abbe Faria played by the iconic Richard Harris (Albus Dumledore; Lucius Cornelius Sulla; Marcus Aurelius) who tunnels up into his cell.

Edmond Dantes: There are 72,519 stones in my walls. I've counted them many times.
Abbe Faria: But have you named them yet?


Edmond Dantes: I don't believe in God.
Abbe Faria: It doesn't matter. He believes in you.
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free ebooks

Postby marmot » Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:49 pm

Free ebooks from Nietzsche, Kant, Kafka, Plato, Aristotle and others: http://arthursclassicnovels.com/arthurs/philosophy.html
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