A paper rebuking Stickels assessment of the McMartin tunnels

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Postby mulebone » Thu May 21, 2009 6:01 pm

You can find tons of leading questions in any of these daycare cases. The mention of "Satan" seems to provoke knee-jerk credulity throughout large swathes of Christian America.

During the 80s, the quintessential decade for spotting day-care demonics, a number of conferences were held, by those of an anti-Satan persuasion that is, with the idea of reaching out to law-enforcement.

At these conferences, a number of "check-lists" were distributed, such as this one listing "occult-related homicide clues:"

1. Where the body is located: Most cults are held in deserted isolated areas. Wooded areas away from people, desert areas, graveyards, abandoned buildings, churches and/or residences. (Which, I think makes just about everywhere a potential cult crime scene)

2. Position of the body: Note direction of the body, whether body is formed in the shape of a circle(facing inwards or outwards), it may be nailed to a cross or formed in the shape of one, it may be hanging from something like a tree either by its feet, hands or neck. If rigor mortis is present the body may still show signs of being tied down (bondage).

3. Missing body parts or organs: In occultic blood rituals many times parts of the human body and/or organs are removed. They may have been eaten (cannibalism) or kept for use in another way. (Gee, I wonder if the Catholic custom of chopping up their saints and distributing among the faithful would qualify as "use in another way?")

4.Body dressed or undressed. (Hmmm....that one's kind of wide open, eh?)

5.Stab wounds or cuts: Particularly important, the size and location of stab wounds or cuts, if done in patterns or symbols, if done to allow blood-letting or draining. incisions to the sex organs, mutilation, Note the number of cuts and/or bruises if in numbered patterns(i.e., 3's, 6's, 7's or 13's). The location of human teeth marks and cannibalism. (In the case of the West Memphis 3, the initial investigation missed a number of bite marks on the victim. This was only discovered later by a qualified forensic investigator hired by the boys defense lawyers. None of the bite marks matched any of the convicted.)

6. Ink marks or tattoos: Again look for patterns and/or symbols. It may even be a message written in an unknown alphabet or code. (Given the fact that everyone seems to be tattooed today, I wonder if this still has any relevance to the anti-Satanists.)

7. Painted with a substance or paint.

8. Branded with a branding iron or any burns.

9. Jewelry on or near the cadaver.

10. Jewelry that is missing. (These two about jewelry again appear awfully wide open.)

11. Any cords or colored ropes on or near the body: Check for implements of bondage. (Implements of bondage? Like black leather and dog collars and such? I suppose they're either Satanists or punk rockers or...ummm...bikers...or Goths...or metal heads...again we're left with more wind than substance)

12. Any implements near the body.

13. Oils or incense on the body.

14. Wax dripping from candles on or about the body.

15. Sign of hands and feet having been tied or shackled, rope burns, etc. (So, unless you go quietly to your own murder, you were killed by Satanists?)

16. Semen near or inside the cadaver. (Is every sexual crime Satanic?)

17. The presence of occult ritual paraphernalia or Christian artifacts. (Since those investigating McMartin used one of the suspect's graduation gowns as evidence, calling it a "Satanic robe" in court, this also appears to be fairly useless as an indicator.)

18. Biblical verses and graffiti written in blood. (If there written with, say, spray paint, should they be disregarded.)

19. Nondiscernable alphabets, witches' alphabet, cabalistic writings, etc. (Would gibberish count as a "nondiscernable alphabet?")

20. Animal's body parts. (Since many bodies are dumped in wilderness, where...ummm...animals tend to die, I wonder what the criteria is for discerning the Satanic animal deaths .)

21. Drawings or photographs of victims.

22. Photography of mock weddings(?), child pornography or sexual activity fixated on anal abuse. (I guess that Satanists like the back-door as well as the left-hand path.)

23. Marks of the Beast-the alphabetical letter numbers for heaven and hell, 666, occult symbolism, etc. (Since Oxford scholars have recently uncovered a 3rd century papyrus which gives the number as 616, and an 11th century manuscript lists the number as 665, I assume that up to date Satanists can confuse investigators by using these numbers instead of the old 666 stand-by.))


A "Search Warrant Checklist" was also distributed at these 'conferences.' Apart from the usual suspect items such as altars and Satanic Bibles, officers are supposed to look out for:

Occult games such as Dungeons and Dragons. (If I remember my Christian American mythology correctly, this D&D tie in with the occult was as bogus & overblown as it was feared by gullible Christians everywhere.)

Ashes from fire pits including fireplaces and wood stoves. (Compulsive barbecuers beware.)

Mirrors. (This would include everyone.)

Ferns, palms. (Why ferns and palms? Wouldn't Jimson Weed or Psylocibin Mushrooms be more appropriate?)

Small animals in cages. (This is just silly.)

Posters of heavy metal and punk rock stars. (Because we all know that the only safe music to listen to is "soft rock" or "country & western").

Paraphernalia related to the martial arts.(Damn those akido master Satanists. I guess that mastering these fighting arts help the diavalos amongst us to kick God's ass.)



Then there is this list of "Satanic Indicators" used to discern RA, compiled by therapist Catherine Gould:

Preoccupation with urine and feces. (Define preoccupation. My oldest daughter, at about 14 months painted her entire walker with her feces, laughing the entire time, My older brother painted the hallway at my parent's home in the same way. Does this make them victims of Satanism?)

Preoccupation with passing gas...wild laughter when the child or someone else passes gas. (Are they serious? Kids who laugh at farts and fart jokes are suspect? I'd say that this encompasses most kids along with a large number of adults)

Aggressive play that has marked sadistic qualities. (Another "indicator" that could apply to most children.)

Preoccupation with death. (Also seems fairly normal, especially if there was a recent death in the family or amongst friends. A few years back a 12 year old boy was struck by a car and killed directly in front of my house. My kids had many death related questions for months afterwards.)

Fear of ghosts and monsters. (This is also quite silly as it is quite common amongst the kiddies)

Fear of jail, or being caged. (?)

Child is "clingy," demonstrates fear of being left with babysitters, particularly overnight. (So whenever I sit down and all my kids leap on me and "cling" to me I should assume Satan's in the house? Right? When my oldest son was small he'd freak whenever I tried to leave him with my mom. As he got older he explained that he was terrified that grandma would die(she was in her late 70s at the time), leaving him alone until I returned.)

Mentioning other people at school besides teachers. (?)

Writing letters or numbers backwards in the "Devil's alphabet" (Every one of my kids started out writing assorted letters and numbers backwards)

Fear of bad people taking the child away, breaking into the house. (Again, common fears that I'd imagine are exacerbated by having the "don't go with strangers" discussion that I assume every parent has with their wee ones)

Preoccupation with the devil, magic, potions, supernatural power, crucifixions. (I'd think that a kid's television viewing habits would probably cause much more of this than Satanists. Harry Potter comes to mind. & crucifixions? Do devout Christians qualify as Satanists? Wait a minute...now I see the logic here.)

References to television characters as real people. (Damn that Barney and his Satanic sidekick Dora.)

Nightmares or dreams of any of the above. (Fairly useless since all this imagery is fairly ingrained in the collective unconscious and can occur spontaneously without any external impetus being present).

All in all, it appears that proponents of Satanic Abuse are an entirely credulous lot who think that everything that isn't in the "Leave It To Beaver/Better Homes & Gardens" category is "Satanic." I doubt they could have entirely discredited themselves any better if they would have set out with that motive.

Hmmmm.....

I really don't have trouble buying the orphanage angle, or the kidnapped kids angle, but the daycare angle just seems highly suspect. It seems that the concealment of child abuse at these places, where kids go home to their parents every night, would be a very short lived affair. I have a bunch of kids. I know every bump and bruise on them. Any changes in behavior would be immediately apparent.

If the entire SRA phenomenon is legitimate, why does every case have to be true? Why can't some of the more outlandish ones, such as McMartin, be obvious hoaxes that can be later used to cast doubt on any legitimate cases that may make it past the normal media conduits of censorship?

Why do folk choose to continually defend, what appears to be, such outlandish bullshit?

And why do they continually fail to understand the concept of "innocent until proven guilty?"
Well Robert Moore went down heavy
With a crash upon the floor
And over to his thrashin' body
Betty Coltrane she did crawl.
She put the gun to the back of his head
And pulled the trigger once more
And blew his brains out
All over the table.
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Postby sunny » Thu May 21, 2009 6:13 pm

barracuda, thanks for linking that thread. So far, the thing that has jumped out at me is Jackie's confirmation: "The physical examination for sexual abuse was positive"
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Postby Percival » Thu May 21, 2009 6:20 pm

sunny wrote:barracuda, thanks for linking that thread. So far, the thing that has jumped out at me is Jackie's confirmation: "The physical examination for sexual abuse was positive"


A lot of kids are sexually abused and I cant think of a better way to get away with it than to have a preschool to blame. Just saying.


Good stuff BONE.

The 80s were filled with crazy right wing christians in a state of satantic panic. Youll never catch me aligning myself with those fucktards.
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Postby mulebone » Thu May 21, 2009 6:36 pm

Judy Johnson's claims were spurred by her son complaining about his "itchy anus."

Her ex-husband said the kid was always getting infections. He said his wife had poor child hygiene skills.

Again, if I had a nickle for every time my kids got a rash on their asses when they were small, I'd have more than a few nickles.

When the rash didn't clear up, Johnson found that her son's anus was now bleeding, she contacted juvenile authorities who sent her to the hospital. A doctor there pronounced that the boy's symptoms were consistent with sodomy. The doc obviously slept through the medical class detailing how sodomizing a 2 year old would cause extreme injury or even death. Not just an "itchy anus."

Johnson then went on to claim that Buckey sodomized the boy while sticking his head in the toilet, stuck an airtube in his rectum, made him ride naked on a horse, molested him while {Buckey} dressed as a cop, a priest, a fireman, a clown & Santa Claus.

Then Johnson got really creative. She claimed Peggy Buckey jabbed scissors in her son's eyes and shot staples into his ears, that Ray put her son's fingers into a goat's anus; and that Peggy killed a baby and made the boy drink the blood. She also said she was followed by 4 AWOL marines who raped her son and sodomized the family dog.

The police found absolutely no evidence in the homes of the accused.

Compare this with another case of "classroom abuse" that took place around the time of McMartin, at the small mountain resort of Big Pine, in the eastern Sierras. Mr. Friendly, a respected teacher in the town, seduced every 5th grade boy there. When Friendly was eventually busted, a police search yielded ample amounts of evidence including sexual devices in his classroom filling cabinets, cameras, and large quantities of still and motion pictures of Friendly and his students having both anal & oral sex. Many boys also admitted what happened in consistent stories that, surprisingly, didn't involve rides in hot air balloons or the drinking babies blood.

Of course, Mr. Friendly wasn't a nefarious Satanist with intelligence connections.

Still...it does make one wonder, doesn't it?
Well Robert Moore went down heavy
With a crash upon the floor
And over to his thrashin' body
Betty Coltrane she did crawl.
She put the gun to the back of his head
And pulled the trigger once more
And blew his brains out
All over the table.
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Postby Percival » Thu May 21, 2009 7:10 pm

mulebone wrote:Judy Johnson's claims were spurred by her son complaining about his "itchy anus."

Her ex-husband said the kid was always getting infections. He said his wife had poor child hygiene skills.

Again, if I had a nickle for every time my kids got a rash on their asses when they were small, I'd have more than a few nickles.

When the rash didn't clear up, Johnson found that her son's anus was now bleeding, she contacted juvenile authorities who sent her to the hospital. A doctor there pronounced that the boy's symptoms were consistent with sodomy. The doc obviously slept through the medical class detailing how sodomizing a 2 year old would cause extreme injury or even death. Not just an "itchy anus."

Johnson then went on to claim that Buckey sodomized the boy while sticking his head in the toilet, stuck an airtube in his rectum, made him ride naked on a horse, molested him while {Buckey} dressed as a cop, a priest, a fireman, a clown & Santa Claus.

Then Johnson got really creative. She claimed Peggy Buckey jabbed scissors in her son's eyes and shot staples into his ears, that Ray put her son's fingers into a goat's anus; and that Peggy killed a baby and made the boy drink the blood. She also said she was followed by 4 AWOL marines who raped her son and sodomized the family dog.

The police found absolutely no evidence in the homes of the accused.

Compare this with another case of "classroom abuse" that took place around the time of McMartin, at the small mountain resort of Big Pine, in the eastern Sierras. Mr. Friendly, a respected teacher in the town, seduced every 5th grade boy there. When Friendly was eventually busted, a police search yielded ample amounts of evidence including sexual devices in his classroom filling cabinets, cameras, and large quantities of still and motion pictures of Friendly and his students having both anal & oral sex. Many boys also admitted what happened in consistent stories that, surprisingly, didn't involve rides in hot air balloons or the drinking babies blood.

Of course, Mr. Friendly wasn't a nefarious Satanist with intelligence connections.

Still...it does make one wonder, doesn't it?


If my understanding is correct, Judy Johnson first complained about her son being abused because his ass itched, then continued to call the police with more and more outlandish claims of satantic rituals, sacrifices etc, THEN the police arrested Ray Buckey and immediately sent out LETTERS TO EVERY MCMARTIN PARENT telling them the place was being investigated for child abuse. Obviously all those parents started worrying and drilling their kids and THEN by the hundreds starting calling the police saying their kids were abused also.

IMO the cheif of police sending that letter out is what caused the whole thing to blow up in to what it was with all those 400+ complaints COMING AFTER THAT LETTER WAS SENT. Check the time-line. Thats how it went.

I agree with BONE, believing every crank story that makes the rounds only makes it that much harder to prove the ones that are real. Make no mistake, I know this crap happens, I am not denying that at all. But you cant be so open minded that your brains ooze out all over the fucking floor.
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Postby lightningBugout » Thu May 21, 2009 7:13 pm

The topic of this thread is the paper referenced in the title. By extension that includes anything related specifically to tunnels or questions about the forensics of the tunnels.

This thread is not a chance for people with strong opinions about related issues to show their stuff. Start another thread if that's your bag but don't hijack this one.
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Postby barracuda » Thu May 21, 2009 7:18 pm

That's a bit tricky lbo, because the premise of the paper is Stickel's confirmation bias which relates intrinsically to the larger issues of the case.
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Postby Percival » Thu May 21, 2009 7:26 pm

barracuda wrote:That's a bit tricky lbo, because the premise of the paper is Stickel's confirmation bias which relates intrinsically to the larger issues of the case.


I agree, the thread should be game for any discussion about the case itself due to the fact, and lets not forget this little point, Stricker was on the payroll and paid a pretty penny and hired by the people who wanted those tunnels to exist. Do you think he would have been paid had he told them otherwise? I am not saying he lied, but that has to be considered.

Incidently, those who represented NEITHER SIDE of this case and did objective searches for those tunnels, still say to this day that they did not exist.

This case, in my informed opinion, and I have read just about everything there is to read about it since day one as well as visited the actual site of the school and met various people involved, was a result of a widerspread nation wide christian satan panic that was going on at the time, why in the world progressives would align themselves with such people is beyond me.

But hey, I am willing to admit I could be wrong and the Buckey's were the monsters many believed them to be.
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Postby mulebone » Thu May 21, 2009 7:26 pm

Alright LBO, I'll bug out after this last bit.

I should mention that the doctor who examined Johnson's kid later admitted she/he had no experience with sexual abuse or sodomy.

Percival, I'm not disagreeing with your time line, although I'd like to add that Johnson first got her 2 year old into McMartin by abandoning the little tot on their doorstep. The folk there had no choice but to take the little guy in.

I do also wonder, given Johnson's mental state & the allegations that "the shadow government creates & misuses mentally ill folk," why no one has ever "dug" (obvious tunnel allusion for thread cohesion) into her background.

Alright.

The bugging out will now commence.
Well Robert Moore went down heavy
With a crash upon the floor
And over to his thrashin' body
Betty Coltrane she did crawl.
She put the gun to the back of his head
And pulled the trigger once more
And blew his brains out
All over the table.
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Postby Percival » Thu May 21, 2009 7:31 pm

mulebone wrote:Alright LBO, I'll bug out after this last bit.

I should mention that the doctor who examined Johnson's kid later admitted she/he had no experience with sexual abuse or sodomy.

Percival, I'm not disagreeing with your time line, although I'd like to add that Johnson first got her 2 year old into McMartin by abandoning the little tot on their doorstep. The folk there had no choice but to take the little guy in.

I do also wonder, given Johnson's mental state & the allegations that "the shadow government creates & misuses mentally ill folk," why no one has ever "dug" (obvious tunnel allusion for thread cohesion) into her background.

Alright.

The bugging out will now commence.


Dont bug out this is a damned good discussion going on here, fuck that whiney shit, if the mods dont like it they can step in, otherwise carry on.


BONE excellent point about Judy Johnson and the fact that she did indeed abandon her child at the doorstep of the McMartin preschool, a much overlooked little detail of the case. I also agree her own background may have turned out to be even MORE INTERESTING than the McMartin case itself which might be WHY Gunderson got involved and she ended up dead. Maybe the case was a diversion for something more sinister going on and they didnt want anyone looking in that particular direction.

Again, lets not forget that this case DID NOT blow up UNTIL the chief of police sent out letters to all the parents telling them that the place was being investigated for abuse. Once that proverbial cat was out of the bag the resulting hysteria commenced, and understandably so...

It is not the case, as many people believe and have written, that HUNDREDS OF PARENTS just started to randomly come forward with allegations of ABUSE, the LETTER, posted below, is what caused this case to become what it was. Who made the decision to write that letter and what was their agenda (after speaking with our little MK Ultra darling Judy Johnson)?


LETTER:

September 8, 1983
Dear Parent:
This Department is conducting a criminal investigation involving child molestation (288 P.C.) Ray Buckey, an employee of Virginia McMartin's Pre-School, was arrested September 7, 1983 by this Department.

The following procedure is obviously an unpleasant one, but to protect the rights of your children as well as the rights of the accused, this inquiry is necessary for a complete investigation.

Records indicate that your child has been or is currently a student at the pre-school. We are asking your assistance in this continuing investigation. Please question your child to see if he or she has been a witness to any crime or if he or she has been a victim. Our investigation indicates that possible criminal acts include: oral sex, fondling of genitals, buttock or chest area, and sodomy, possibly committed under the pretense of "taking the child's temperature." Also photos may have been taken of children without their clothing. Any information from your child regarding having ever observed Ray Buckey to leave a classroom alone with a child during any nap period, or if they have ever observed Ray Buckey tie up a child, is important.

Please complete the enclosed information form and return it to this Department in the enclosed stamped return envelope as soon as possible. We will contact you if circumstances dictate same.

We ask you to please keep this investigation strictly confidential because of the nature of the charges and the highly emotional effect it could have on our community. Please do not discuss this investigation with anyone outside your immediate family. Do not contact or discuss the investigation with Raymond Buckey, any member of the accused defendant's family, or employees connected with the McMartin Pre-School.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO INDICATED THAT THE MANAGEMENT OF VIRGINIA MCMARTIN'S PRE-SCHOOL HAD ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THIS SITUATION AND NO DETRIMENTAL INFORMATION CONCERNING THE OPERATION OF THE SCHOOL HAS BEEN DISCOVERED DURING THIS INVESTIGATION. ALSO, NO OTHER EMPLOYEE IN THE SCHOOL IS UNDER INVESTIGATION FOR ANY CRIMINAL ACT.

Your prompt attention to this matter and reply no late than Septemeber 16, 1983 will be appreciated.

HARRY L. KUHLMEYER, JR.
Chief of Police
JOHN WEHNER, Captain


Notice how the letter is worded, that is VERY irresponsible wording coming from a professional police force in the middle of an investigation.
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Postby lightningBugout » Thu May 21, 2009 7:32 pm

The quality of interrogation technique is not in any way relevant to the question of whether or not Stickel's archaeology was influenced by confirmation bias. In fact, even if the charge that Stickel was biased is introduced, how he got there is not relevant.

McMartin has been discussed thousands of times here. It is not as though people have missed the opportunity to discuss other aspects of the case itself. You can always find an older thread and bump it.
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Postby lightningBugout » Thu May 21, 2009 7:36 pm

Percival, don't be a clown

Percival wrote:fuck that whiney shit, if the mods dont like it they can step in, otherwise carry on.


I'm not whining. I'm trying to keep this thread focused so that there is a chance for specific aspects of the case to actually be looked at in greater detail.

ps. I think you meant "bug off" Mulebone.
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Postby Percival » Thu May 21, 2009 7:46 pm

lightningBugout wrote:Percival, don't be a clown

Percival wrote:fuck that whiney shit, if the mods dont like it they can step in, otherwise carry on.


I'm not whining. I'm trying to keep this thread focused so that there is a chance for specific aspects of the case to actually be looked at in greater detail.

ps. I think you meant "bug off" Mulebone.


No offense meant my friend, I just enjoy discussing this case in particular, it has a lot of interesting angles to it and this has turned out to be a pretty good discussion.
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Postby lightningBugout » Thu May 21, 2009 7:56 pm

Why not start another thread on what it is you are interested in, which seems to be a very general "McMartin: was it a witchhunt?"
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Postby Percival » Thu May 21, 2009 9:04 pm

Ok, ok fair enough, lets stick to the article then, there is this excerpt:

In January 1990, after a thirty-three month trial, the jury found the pair not guilty on fifty-two counts, but remained deadlocked on twelve other counts against Ray Buckey and one against his mother.

There is that damn masonic/illuminati 33 again rearing its head and showing its ugly face. Shall we make something of that?
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