shooting at DC Holocaust museum

[jlaw172364]

@ Hilda Martinez

I wrote that people accumulate capital and lobby/bribe Congress to do their bidding. It's no secret that Congress can be bribed. American Jews lobby/bribed Congress to help them set up a Holocaust museum in the U.S. But for some reason, they couldn't seem to get all the boatloads of refugees fleeing Nazis into the U.S.

BTW, did you know when the Founders was a Jew, Haym Solomon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haym_Salomon

There should absolutely be a Native American Holocaust museum in the U.S.

Here is a link to a website for a museum about Wounded Knee:

http://www.woundedkneemuseum.org/index.htm

I'm sure that the Jews would rather have had the boatloads of refugees let into the country rather than the museum, as would the Native Americans rather have an actual nation, rather than a museum.

The museum is a reminder that they got beaten badly, and a warning for the future.

By the way, does anybody ever bring up how the Turkish government keeps influencing the U.S. government to not recognize the Armenian genocide?

[jlaw172364]

Maybe he could write another book about African Americans keep exploiting slavery, racism, or Jim Crow for profit, or how Native Americans keep exploiting their mystic traditions for profit.

Here's a quote from Sojourner Truth: "We sell the shadow to preserve the substance."

They reasonably believe they have to "exploit" the Holocaust to reasonably preserve its memory. It takes a lot of capital to preserve historical events in the public memory. Hence, the never-ending flood of art by Jewish artists pertaining to the Holocaust. Holocaust museums don't build themselves. People don't automatically start discussing the Holocaust because they feel it their moral duty; especially if nobody ever lobbied to get it on the curriculum at local high schools. I looked at a history book from right after WWII called "Our Country's Story;" hilariously jingoistic, but barely a mention of what went on.

But why would gentiles care about the Holocaust? Doesn't it only pertain to Jews?

The Holocaust is unique in the sense that it is an exhaustively documented case study in how the modern state can systematically single out, disenfranchise, torture, enslave, and then murder any subset of the population within a given period of time.

If people who used drugs currently deemed illegal had learned the lessons of the Holocaust, there would have been no bullshit War on Drugs, because the state would not have been able to successfully demonize drug users, systematically set up monitors (urine tests, civilian spies, specially trained police units, forensic methods) for detecting drug use, and then use the machinery of the state to round them up for processing. If the War on Drugs ends in the U.S., I can't imagine what will come next.

[professorpan]

Yo Nordic....

Why won't you answer the questions I posed to you about your original post?

Just to make it easy on you, here they are:

Where/how did you see the "Israeli [sic] can do no wrong" crowd milking the von Brunn shooting? How, precisely, were they "milking" it?

The "Help! We're oppressed!" you've now revealed as a joke, but what led you to suggest that some Jews/Israelis were using the von Brunn shooting to point out Jewish repression?

And what "militant group" was using the shooting to justify its own violence against others?

Because honestly, I think you just made that shit up.

And I am not in any way accusing you of racism, or anti-Semitism, and I take your word that you are not biased against any particular group of people. But I think you are being disingenuous with the aim of making a point.

[AlicetheKurious]

lbo said:

OTOH the first point is deceptively simple. Usually when someone of good intent is verging on anti-semitism, they, like clockwork, offer a pre-emptive defense of their own character, ie that whole "I don't see color / I don't care about religion / I don't see religions differently, etc" thing.

But its a pretty prevalent thing. Not just seeming to hold jews more responsible for the Palestinian genocide than say the Turks for the Armenian genocide or the Hutus for the Great Lakes genocide(s), but the more insidious - "it's bizzare" that Israel has such a fond relationship with the US, or in this thread to "demand" an explanation, not to mention to portray Israeli like a snakecharmer who mysteriously forces the US to "throw money" at them. Get it -- the snakecharmer - master of snakes - master of evil, um, Mephistopheles mind controlling "our" country into giving up his very favorite snack. (can't place it but have the vague sense of having read somewhere about the Jews apparently innate taste for cash).

That's a pretty outrageous distortion of what Nordic said, with lots of fanciful extrapolations that you spuriously attribute to him.

Furthermore, as far as I'm aware, "the Turks" are not currently engaging in genocide -- I believe you're referring to the events of WWI. That would be, um...more than 90 years ago. As for the Hutus, that's the subject of another thread. Neither, in terms of urgency, or American complicity, is comparable to the current, ongoing genocide against the Palestinians, let alone the unrepentant threats made by Israeli leaders of even more to come. And neither is relevant to this subject.

Moreover, are you seriously comparing America's vast, unconditional political, financial and military support for Israel with America's attitude towards North Korea? How desperate is that?

Generally speaking, it's not nice to accuse people of things they haven't said or done, on the basis that according to your OWN prejudices and feelings, you believe that's what they really think, let alone that it's what they're on the verge of thinking.

People should be allowed to express themselves and those who disagree with them can argue the issues using facts and logic, instead of subjecting them to smears and defamation.

Sorry, lbo, I usually appreciate the clarity and logic of your contributions, but that last post was mostly gibberish, and you attacked Nordic using mumbo-jumbo and utterly baseless insinuations. It's actually very telling how many people "lose it" when this subject is discussed in any detail. I'd politely ignore it as an aberration, but then that would be a failure to speak up against the unfair attack against Nordic for merely expressing his views with obvious sincerity, so I couldn't stay quiet. Sorry again.

[AlicetheKurious]

I'm sure that the Jews would rather have had the boatloads of refugees let into the country rather than the museum, as would the Native Americans rather have an actual nation, rather than a museum.

Actually, you're confusing "Jews" with "zionists". This is especially misleading in referring to the period during WWII, since back then, the vast majority of Jews were not only NOT zionists, but were actively hostile to what they considered a crazy 'sect'.

"Jews" would indeed have far preferred to have saved as many refugees as possible by getting them into the U.S., but "zionists" did not. (Scroll down to the section entitled "No Shame")

For someone who holds such strong opinions, you're singularly uninformed about the issues upon which you declaim, beyond the kind of superficial knowledge one can derive from reading exclusively zionist propaganda "handbook"-type publications.

[AlicetheKurious]

Yo Nordic....

Why won't you answer the questions I posed to you about your original post?

Just to make it easy on you, here they are:

Where/how did you see the "Israeli [sic] can do no wrong" crowd milking the von Brunn shooting? How, precisely, were they "milking" it?

The "Help! We're oppressed!" you've now revealed as a joke, but what led you to suggest that some Jews/Israelis were using the von Brunn shooting to point out Jewish repression?

And what "militant group" was using the shooting to justify its own violence against others?

Because honestly, I think you just made that shit up.

I really have to go to bed now, but a couple of days ago I watched a video on Youtube where three ladies from the JDL in Israel announced that American Jews should heed the warning of the attack at the Holocaust Museum by immediately arming themselves and preparing to emigrate to Israel, to help them settle ALL of the land in compliance with God's command.

Perhaps you recall a few years ago, a woman claimed to have been attacked in Paris in what later turned out to be a fake 'anti-semitic' incident, Ariel Sharon declared that all Jews should leave France at once and head to Israel -- you should, it was a big deal, Chirac was upset, and there was quite a lot of tension between the Israeli and the French governments.

If I had a few minutes, I'd probably be able to find examples of how this crime has been exploited, but I can't right now.

[professorpan]

Thanks, Alice, I do appreciate your response, but I am more interested in Nordic's answers. I realize that Jews and Israelis, like anyone, can make cynical choices, but I am not convinced that Nordic was reacting to actual events (as he claimed).

[lightningBugout]

edit: on re-read of my initial post at midnight -- you are right, it came out as much closer to mumbo-jumbo than I realized. I apologize for that, but I think and/or hope that in reply, I've cleared up my meaning.

lbo said:

OTOH the first point is deceptively simple. Usually when someone of good intent is verging on anti-semitism, they, like clockwork, offer a pre-emptive defense of their own character, ie that whole "I don't see color / I don't care about religion / I don't see religions differently, etc" thing.

But its a pretty prevalent thing. Not just seeming to hold jews more responsible for the Palestinian genocide than say the Turks for the Armenian genocide or the Hutus for the Great Lakes genocide(s), but the more insidious - "it's bizzare" that Israel has such a fond relationship with the US, or in this thread to "demand" an explanation, not to mention to portray Israeli like a snakecharmer who mysteriously forces the US to "throw money" at them. Get it -- the snakecharmer - master of snakes - master of evil, um, Mephistopheles mind controlling "our" country into giving up his very favorite snack. (can't place it but have the vague sense of having read somewhere about the Jews apparently innate taste for cash).

That's a pretty outrageous distortion of what Nordic said, with lots of fanciful extrapolations that you spuriously attribute to him.

I could not have been more clear in my initial post that nothing was meant to be personal. I am actually quite surprised at you, Alice, given that I have the utmost respect for you, that you are either unwilling or unable to see what I was trying to do -- locate Nordic's post within a universalist anti-semitic discourse. As such, I was in no way extrapolating on Nordic -- quite the other way around talking about something real big and trying to show how Nordic's post could be interpreted therein. If it wasn't clear then, make it clear now - I was not attributing huge semiotic legacies of cosmic violence to Noridc, spuriously or otherwise.

Furthermore, as far as I'm aware, "the Turks" are not currently engaging in genocide -- I believe you're referring to the events of WWI. That would be, um...more than 90 years ago. As for the Hutus, that's the subject of another thread. Neither, in terms of urgency, or American complicity, is comparable to the current, ongoing genocide against the Palestinians, let alone the unrepentant threats made by Israeli leaders of even more to come. And neither is relevant to this subject.

We are completely mixing signals. Talking in the same breath about several different events tagged genocide should not be confusing simply because they exist at different time-space coordinates. Though I would point out that the Armenian movement for official recognition of the genocide is very much in the here and now. My point was actually about not comparing different genocides and attributing one worse than another, as you did here, because, um, unless I am missing something that is the logic that leads to the rather noxious -- but our genocide was worse, it was the genocide to end all genocides - the Holocaust.

Moreover, are you seriously comparing America's vast, unconditional political, financial and military support for Israel with America's attitude towards North Korea? How desperate is that?

No Alice I absolutely 100% do not think the two are similar in terms of scale. And I am not desperate. What I am saying is that America has fucked up and curious relationships to other countries as well. Obviously limited humanitarian aid to N Korea is in no way comparable to the heavy-duty billion-dollar interwoven 'defense' industry shared by Israel and the US. But, that was not what I was talking about. What I was talking about was saying that the relationship to Israel is not mysterious. It is, sadly, IMO, clear as day why we are in bed with Israel.

Generally speaking, it's not nice to accuse people of things they haven't said or done, on the basis that according to your OWN prejudices and feelings, you believe that's what they really think, let alone that it's what they're on the verge of thinking.

Dude. There was no accusation. Nor do I think being 'nice' is the highest priority when talking about genocide. But this is ridiculous -- I'm talking about the discourse, basically the existing theater of rhetorical operations that long predates Nordic and trying to show that certain ways of criticizing Israel invoke antisemitism, incidentally or via semiotics, while others do not. I bent over backwards three times to say I wasn't attacking Nordic. I do not think Nordic is an anti-semite, period and I have said so loudly and clearly.

People should be allowed to express themselves and those who disagree with them can argue the issues using facts and logic, instead of subjecting them to smears and defamation.

100% agreed. Breaking down one interpretation of how someone's language could be interpreted as anti-semitism, while making clear that you do not, in any way, think that person is such, is 1) using facts and logic and 2) not smearing or defaming.

Sorry, lbo, I usually appreciate the clarity and logic of your contributions, but that last post was mostly gibberish, and you attacked Nordic using mumbo-jumbo and utterly baseless insinuations. It's actually very telling how many people "lose it" when this subject is discussed in any detail. I'd politely ignore it as an aberration, but then that would be a failure to speak up against the unfair attack against Nordic for merely expressing his views with obvious sincerity, so I couldn't stay quiet. Sorry again.

Alice, I'm a big fan of yours. You put more energy into some unpopular causes that are very close to my heart than anyone else I know on the internet, here or otherwise. My post was not mumbo-jumbo. I really urge you to cut me some slack and re-read what I've written, here and before. Because I am pretty sure that my overall point is very much in line with your own mission.

There [b]has/b] to be a way to break down language someone else uses that you find offensive while making entirely clcear that you genuinely are not attacking that person. Language is pretty quickly detached from its speaker, particularly when it lives forever in public record as on the web. Analyzing from different angles is not insinuation and is not always reflective on the intentions of its owner.

[stefano]

lbo - the Armenian genocide isn't a good comparison at all, as Alice said the occupation of Palestine is happening right now, and not only are Western governments not helping, they're complicit. But you're right that the issue raises more emotion than any other similar event... In April the Sri Lankan army killed between 10 000 and 20 000 Tamil civilians using artillery, and it went pretty much undiscussed in the media I read (except the Asia Times).

Palestine is the last place where white Europeans are stealing land from natives at gunpoint, it's an archetype of what colonialism looks like. So that's why there's so much emotion around it on both sides. A lot of whites (most new world whites) who take Israel's side subconsciously identify with the intrepid pioneers, setting out to "make the desert bloom" and blah blah. You can tell you're dealing with this kind of person when they say something like "oh but look at Tel Aviv, why doesn't Gaza look like that", in other words the backward Arabs couldn't make anything of the land. People who identify with the Palestinian cause revolt against the injustice of land theft and see in the occupation all the injustice of a hundred years ago.

Then there's the fact that all Muslims see the occupation as a threat to Muslim Jerusalem, which they're quite right to. For Arab governments that treat their citizens less than well it's a great lighting rod, and government-aligned papers milk it for all it's worth.

I've recently also wondered whether there mightn't really be something holy about the Holy Land, some kind of vibe beyond "this is where my family has always lived or "God promised me this land".

Of course, just because worse things have happened and there are elements that benefit from drawing attention to Palestine doesn't mean we should cut Israel any slack.

Edited - sorry lbo it was your post I was responding to.

[lightningBugout]

lbo - the Armenian genocide isn't a good comparison at all

Yes, remember when I said:

My point was actually about not comparing different genocides

My point is that the comparison of different genocides or collective traumas inevitably creates an economy of violence in which one groups' suffering is prioritized, in which human value become a ratio. And that this also happens at the individual human scale as well.

Thus my mention of other collective historical traumas is meant to be inclusive in order to oppose Israel's primal usage of the economy described above in order to legitimize and naturalize their acts of genocide.

Palestine is the last place where white Europeans are stealing land from natives at gunpoint, it's an archetype of what colonialism looks like. So that's why there's so much emotion around it on both sides. A lot of whites (most new world whites) who take Israel's side subconsciously identify with the intrepid pioneers, setting out to "make the desert bloom" and blah blah. You can tell you're dealing with this kind of person when they say something like "oh but look at Tel Aviv, why doesn't Gaza look like that", in other words the backward Arabs couldn't make anything of the land. People who identify with the Palestinian cause revolt against the injustice of land theft and see in the occupation all the injustice of a hundred years ago.

You're much more generous than I am, the only people I know who defend Israel against acknowledgment of their genocide against the Palestinians probably could not find Israel on a map, much less even be familiar with the rather high Modernist / Brigham Young magical desert-bloom mythos. I'd have said it was more = look, see, brown terrorist, get 'm.

I think the strongest charge against Israel's existence from a detached socio-political perspective is due to the fact that the creation of Israel at the moment it occurred was a huge anti-teleological step backwards - when so many African nations were overthrowing colonialism, Israel inaugurated a vast new colonialist project way past that phenomena's expiration date. Hence the need for the total demonization by Israeli activists and sympathetic American scholars of someone like Edward Said who said as much in the simplest most legible terms.

[American Dream]

lightningBugout wrote:

the only people I know who defend Israel against acknowledgment of their genocide against the Palestinians probably could not find Israel on a map, much less even be familiar with the rather high Modernist / Brigham Young magical desert-bloom mythos.

I know of one person in particular- a nemesis of sorts, who was very busy when we were trying to organize things in Rachel Corrie's hometown, after her murder by the IDF.

This person specifically invoked the "desert bloom" trope, as part of his very dedicated efforts to undermine any and all Palestine solidarity. I would not at all be surprised if he was supported in his efforts by elements tied to the Israeli Government (ADL etc.), but I also know that it's very, very easy to get on the mailing lists for the big Zionist groups here, and/or to to read their websites. There is of course an endless flood of propaganda ready to arm the pro-Israel info-warrior.

So my point is, you don't necessarily have to be smart, just able to read and repeat talking-points. There are a lot of people doing this right now.



.

[nathan28]

lightningBugout wrote:

the only people I know who defend Israel against acknowledgment of their genocide against the Palestinians probably could not find Israel on a map, much less even be familiar with the rather high Modernist / Brigham Young magical desert-bloom mythos.

I know of one person in particular- a personal nemesis, who was very busy when we were trying to organize things in Rachel Corrie's hometown, after her murder by the IDF.

This person specifically invoked the "desert bloom" trope, as part of his very dedicated efforts to undermine any and all Palestine solidarity. I would not at all be surprised if he was supported in his efforts by elements tied to the Israeli Government (ADL etc.), but I also know that it's very, very easy to get on the mailing lists for the big Zionist groups here, and/or to to read their websites. There is of course an endless flood of propaganda ready to arm the pro-Israel info-warrior.

So my point is, you don't necessarily have to be smart, just able to read and repeat talking-points. There are a lot of people doing this right now.



.

Do the desert bloomtards refer to themselves as "Zionist" seriously? I thought it was just St*rmfr*nters pretending there was a Jewish communist investment banker conspiracy.

[American Dream]

I think you are right, Nathan...

[SonOfKitty]

American Dream

Can you advise as to who reliable sources are for a legitimate discussion of Zionist media control in the US? The Larouche stuff is getting lame.

[American Dream]

Sorry, SOK, not sure who takes this idea seriously. If there were some serious studies, I would love to see them...