OP ED]
wow. two "studies". with horrible methodologies no less.
Two studies with less than ideal sample groups, simply.
first off, i'd like to see more studies to support your "data" if you can provide it. They are so much divergent from any other study i have ever come across that i'd hate to turn them in at my university. In fact, so much divergent that i'm inclined to label them "cherry picking" by someone with an agenda until i see evidence otherwise.
Well a University is there to peddle the status quo, I wouldn't try turning in these studies. Political correctness comes above, you know, correctness. But yeah, obviously I didn't look for studies that show a low number of false accusations, as you've seen you don't have to look hard for those. I cherry picked those which seem reliable and objective, aren't carried out by those with a political point to prove (ie feminists), that sort of thing.
The numbers which have been "officially" recognized are MUCH smaller, in literally hundreds of surveys. the B.O.J. in the USA gives the number as hovering at just over 1%. [false claim, not false identification, that is] Most of the feminist surveys i have access to suggest something slightly higher than this, perhaps between 2 and 3 percent.
Right, so I provide some studies and they're "divergent" and implicitly unreliable, but some produced by self-proclaimed feminists are supposed to be objective and bias free?
Obviously its difficult to find studies not carried out by feminists, due to heavy funding of women's studies departments and so forth, but I can find a few for you if that's what you want. I didn't get into this thread for a measuring competition on the size of different victimisations, mind.
There will be a list of studies at the end of this post.
c2w:
Anyway. As long as we're on [i]this subject -- it's also potentially problematic that there's no data at all on rates of false acquittal for rape[/i]
Have you never heard that it's better for a hundred guilty men to go free than for one innocent man to be convicted? There's no such thing, for any crime, as a false aquittal. If there's not enough evidence to secure a conviction, even after the machinations of law enforcement officials, there's no guilt.
OP ED:
An example being that i disagree with your rephrasing of the line [i]"who are historically and globally subject to harsher and more systematically uniform techniques of oppression than men are" to something more PC, as i do not take any particular issue with the initial version as you stated it, i.e. globally and historically, if perhaps not so much in the modern industrialized states. There are many reasons i have for acccepting this claim on its face. An example: since chig started this thread, approximately 47 women have been burned at the stake in the country of India for not coming to their wedding [as property] with large enough monetary-type bonus prizes... [/i]
Hey, don't forget the women burned for suti, although they are always suicides. Murdered by society, you might say, although that would bring up the fact that most suicides are men. And for that matter, so are most murder victims, although rarely by burning. And according to some reports, such as that by human Rights Watch, so are most American rape victims due to your depraved prison system. I know the counter argument is that they're raped by men, but I doubt that makes them feel any better. I mean, most black murder victims are victims of black murderers, but that doesn't distract us from the bigger issues: the victims are still dead.
Anyway, let's forget all this "long ago, in a land far far away" stuff, give me an example of the oppression of women in the modern west and you will have the honour of being the first feminist to have provided an example in the many times I've asked this question.
Incidentally, here's a study of false rape from India:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Delh ... 910217.cms
c2w:
Or....Scratch that. Do you literally simply not register the meaning of anything and everything that doesn't validate your own needs, your own views, and your own ego? Or do you have to make a conscious decision to overlook it?
As I didn't care about the case I was rather careless, you see I realise that individual cases are totally irrelevant to the argument.
Go
here to see a case of man being ruined by false allegations. Perhaps you'd like to hear about the man falsely convicted, then repeatedly raped in prison? I can go toe to toe offering stories of suffering if you'd like, but it won't get us anywhere.
Also, have you ever noticed that your implacable opposition to the manifold evils of capitalist oppression is kinda more than just a little bit too on-again-off-again to really be described as "implacable"?
I don't remember saying implacable. But no, I don't. Have you ever seen me applaud capitalism? Is it just that I don't start every post with "this is another example of the evils of capitalism"?
You're not the only person on earth who's been kicked in the teeth for years or who's suffered severe deprivation or who's had a difficult life.
Isn't all of history a boot smashing down into a face for ever?
I decline to use my own little personal hell as either the centerpiece of my social identity or the sole criterion on which my principles and political convictions are based.
My views aren't related to my own plight, but to what i consider objectively best for society. Of course, I am a member of society, after a fashion.
while feminism is an ideology, it's not an ideology you're acquainted with. Because for one thing, according to you, it's not an ideology, but rather a capitalist psi-op aimed at women but directed by spooks and shirts. So, you know....
Well Obama is a psy-op, that doesn't mean he's not president.
...why not call it capitalism, if that's what you mean?
When I argue against low wages, do I say I'm arguing against capitalism, or low wages? One is the other, although the other is more than the one. So it is with feminism, if people put forward feminism, I put forward anti-feminism and what I dispute I call feminism, as do they (although feminists have a disturbing tendency not to recognise each other, such influential persons as Steinem being disowned to wriggle out of the truth over external influences on their movement). If I only denounced capitalism, people would assume I favoured feminism, which is very much not the case.
Kanin, as you note, uses too small a sample to be predictive. IIRC, the complaining witnesses all recanted OR took a polygraph. Which has implications in connection with one of the lesser grounds on which it can be criticized that you fail to note, which is that his too-small sample was drawn exclusively from one small Midwestern city, which makes it -- hmm, what's the phrase I'm looking for? -- doubtful in its application to larger society.
I said small, not "too small", it was accepted and published by a peer reviewed journal. And to be honest I don't regard that other criticism as valid. It's acceptably representative of larger American society, a small citty in Indiana. No study's perfect.
It's interesting to see you continuing to look for criticisms of the study, though, now that you seem to have given up on claiming he was merely biased due to anti-feminism (he was actually very popular with feminists).
Oops! Did I say "crime victims"? Sorry. What I meant to say was "complaining witnesses in rape cases." Which do not by any means have the highest false-report rates among crimes overall.
Actually they do have the highest rate. I don't suppose you approve of the judge who ruled that a complaining witness couldn't be called a victim in court because it would prejudice the case against the defendent?
The McDowell case, which found 27% were admitted to be false (and 65% false according to a panel of reviewers) found that most recanted when asked to take a polygraph, failing the polygraph wasn't seen as an admission.
Dude. My point was not that eyewitness misidentification leading to wrongful conviction in real cases of rape should be counted as a "false" rape claim. It was that there is a ton of rock-solid empirical evidence that many, many men are victimized in connection with rape cases [i]by the police. Exponentially more than there's any reason to think are victimized by women making false rape claims. That's an outrage. As I'd imagine it would be to anyone who was sincerely interested in the victimization of men. [/i]
Well, we're still arguing over the prevalence of false claims by wouldbe victims, and therefore their prevalence relative to those caused by the police, but otherwise I agree. You seem to have taken my lack of disagreement as evidence that I don't give a shit about male victims, when in fact I just agree and therefore don't comment. Is the issue under consideration suddenly who can be most effusive in their support for male victims?
I don't really know what to say. The strength of your objections to injustice fluctuates a lot more than mine does.
I was thinking more or less the same thing about you, your obvious abhorrence for rape but not for women who make false allegations for revenge and so on. Presumably this makes it most likely to be a mere error in human perception caused by the form of our debate. Barring a ranked listing of those persecutees I sympathise with at the end of every post, I can't really do anything about it.
What the fuck does that have to do with feminism or feminists? If I might be so bold as to inquire.
I was just talking about wrongful rape cases, not every single one of which has relevance to feminism, barring the social climate of somewhat extreme reaction against anyone accused of rape.
Now, on Kanin:
forbids police officers to use their discretion in
deciding whether to officially acknowledge a rape
complaint, regardless how suspect that complaint may be.
A feminist policy, along with mandatory arrests in DV cases and so on.
Second, the declaration of a false allegation follows a
highly institutionalized procedure. The investigation of all
rape complaints always involves a serious offer to
polygraph the complainants and the suspects. Additionally,
for a declaration of false charge to be made, the
complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is
the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false.
Try this:
Second, the declaration of a false allegation follows a
highly institutionalized procedure. The investigation of all
rape complaints always involves a serious offer to
polygraph the complainants and the suspects.
Additionally,
for a declaration of false charge to be made, the
complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. She is
the sole agent who can say that the rape charge is false.
So you were wrong before about a failed polygraph being enough to render a case disproved, officially speaking.
For what most people would call 41% of the total. And what Stephen Morgan calls "over forty percent."
Sorry, is my arithmetic faulty?
Now, bearing in mind that these officers professionally and zealously pursued every single case to conclusion, no matter how suspect, incredible, fantastical, or delusional they privately might have thought it was, and also that they made a serious threat -- oops, I meant offer
to polygraph the complainants and suspects in every case
Have you thought of become a spin doctor, or perhaps a barrister specialising in hostile questioning? You can make anything sound sinister.
Second, not one of the detectives believed that an incident
of false recantation had occurred. They argued, rather
convincingly, that in those cases where a suspect was
identified and interrogated, the facts of the recantation
dovetailed with the suspect’s own defense.
I believe this would be considered corroboration.
Last, the policy
of this police agency is to apply a statute regarding the
false reporting of a felony. After the recant, the
complainant is informed that she will be charged with filing
a false complaint, punishable by a substantial fine and a
jail sentence. In no case, has an effort been made on the
part of the complainant to retract the recantation.
Do you not think such a policy would reduce the number of recantations?
Although
we certainly do not deny the possibility of false
recantations, no evidence supports such an interpretation
for these cases.[/list]
No evidence, seems accurate.
[i]Although Kanin doesn't give percentages for the circumstances under which the claimants recanted, he does have occasion to mention [i]en passant the cases of several -- "very few" of whom the police hadn't already concluded were lying, let's recall -- who did so either during the polygraph or when confronted with the prospect of the polygraph. Plus in one instance, upon being told that she'd failed the polygraph.[/i]
You're right that polygraphs are inaccurate, but most people don't know that. Failing one or being confronted with one is therefore likely to elicit a recantation from the guilty.
* 34 pieces of evil, verminous scum falsely reporting rape
Oh, I doubt they all worked at jobcentres.
In all seriousness: It's just not possible authoritatively to say what percentage of rape claims are wittingly false. Indications derived from the best available data are that it's somewhere between 3% to 8%. But it could be higher or lower. There's just no way to say.
Now I think about it, I haven't seen this "best available data" yet. Silly me, I've been too busy defending my data and my position that I haven't had the chance to pick holes in your pet paper. Pity you've finished with my bullshit so I won't get the chance.
I seem to recall you, in one of our earlier debates, defending Sheer Hite and her rape study, the one in which most of the "rape victims" she counted, when asked, claimed not to have been raped. Might not have been you, I've argued with a lot of people about this.
The Kanin study also only deals with forcible rape, false accusations and allegations resulting from regrets and misunderstandings are probably more common in date rape.
Some interesting parts of the study:
Not one complainant mentions forced oral or
anal sex. In contrast, these acts were included in
approximately 25% of the founded forcible rape
complaints. Perhaps it was simply psychologically and
socially more prudent for these women to minimize the
humiliation of sexual victimization by not embroidering the
event any more than necessary. This phenomenon has
been observed previously (McDowell and Hibler, 1987).
And:
Second, although the literature liberally refers to various
extortion scams as responsible for false rape charging
(Comment, 1968; MacDonald, 1973), no such cases were
encountered or could even be recalled by members of the
police agency. This type of case may very well be a period
piece, or perhaps it was even then the exceptional case.
Extraordinary attention would readily have been
forthcoming since this theory nicely meshed with the
position of prevailing authorities who stressed the
omnipresent threat of female cunning and stealth. One
authority, (MacDonald, 1973), for example, cited a 1918
article (Bronson) to illustrate a blackmail case since he
never encountered one himself. In a similar vein, no
apparent case of pseudologia phantastica surfaced. The
earlier view of a deluded complainant, tenaciously
affirming her victimization, just does not appear here.
These women were not inclined to put up a steadfast
defense of their victimization, let alone pursue it into the
courtroom. Recantation overwhelmingly came early and
relatively easily.
I would say both of these quotes, if backed up elsewhere, would have an impact on the likelihood, or rather otherwise, of dissimulation in claimed SRA cases. The normal debunker claims of delusion, dishonesty, that sort of thing, don't appear here amongst the false allegations. SRA cases also generally involved exotic and humiliating sexual activities, which again Kanin found not to happen in false cases.
But that's neither here nor there.
Now, studies, for starters:
Widely divergent viewpoints are held regarding the
incidence of false rape reporting (Katz and Mazur, 1979).
For example, reports set the figure from lows of 0.25%
(O’Reilly, 1984) and 1% (Krasner et al., 1976) to highs of
80-90% (Bronson, 1918; Comment, 1968) and even 100%
(see Kanin, 1985). All of these figures represent releases
from some criminal justice agency or are estimates from
clinical practitioners. The extraordinary range of these
estimates makes a researcher suspect that inordinate
biases are at work.
Feel free to look up the high numbers ones.
Also, if you look at the Addenda to the
Kanin study you'll see a reference to a study by Jay and another study by Kanin himself, this time on University women and without the polygraph which reached a conclusion that 50% were false.
"rape is an accusation easily to be made, hard to be proved, and harder yet to be defended by the party accused, tho' never so innocent" -- Mathew Hale
One in four rape reports were unfounded in a 1990 and 1991 Washington Post investigation in seven Virginia and Maryland counties. When contacted by the Post, many of the alleged victims admitted that they had lied.
[url=http://www.americandaily.com/article/5075]That false allegations are a major problem has been confirmed by several prominent prosecutors, including Linda Fairstein, who heads the New York County District Attorney's Sex Crimes Unit. Fairstein, the author of “Sexual Violence: Our War Against Rape,â€
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
