Did women cause the recession?

[Penguin]

I didn't realise how insulting that'd be to any women present

Obviously...
(A campaign just started here in youth sports, trying to raise awareness of this kind of name calling in sports, often allowed or sometimes even encouraged by the coaches. Including calling people gays or girls, and even more so in the case that there are gay people in the teams...Sometimes leading young ones to drop the sport)

[OP ED]

Which, on a football field, would be remarkably insulting.

Not if you'd just scored an awesome goal or won an important game.

Often you wouldn't have to ask.

i doubt you would almost ever ask, actually. of course, the homoeroticisms of men's sports is an not entirely unrelated topic, from my POV.

calling SM a girl is an male-centric-type insult, in the same vein, though less obvious are the suggestions,

I suggested that to penguin so if anyone's gonna knock anyone for it it should probably be me, and yes its a male centric insult from a male pov aimed at pushing Stevo's buttons, (even tho it probably wouldn't work). You know ... you obviously disrespect women so much we should feminize your name and call you a girl cos even if it doesn't bother you at first eventually it'll really start to grate.

i'm not interested in knocking anyone over it, as i am often guilty of it myself. i am merely interested in examining it in a context wherein it is not completely off-topic. i had noticed it from the beginning, but as with many of these things, it was a girl who mentioned it out loud first.

if you examine most of the flamier threads, you'll notice similar patterns.

[again i suggest everyone take a day to read the firepit]

as a tangent, i'd point out that my notice of Penguin in specific is largely due to the anti-chivalraic sentiments that "morgana" triggers in me.

also, the clinical psychology student in me would remind myself and other observers that this form of intellectual domination, quite apart from its sexism in itself, is actually more likely to re-enforce any existing gender biases.

I didn't realise how insulting that'd be to any women present but I should have cos sometimes its pretty insulting to me as a bloke that he is to. (Not always, just when he spouts ridiculous garbage and tries to make it sound legit.)

indeed. linguistic biases are the hardest to avoid, and it is often impossible to tell exactly how someone will interpret what you say.

an example, on the other hand, from my own POV, would be c2w's usage of polite language and especially terms of endearment, (i.e. "sweetheart") which when i encounter them in my direction, i am often forced to remind myself that she may not actually be trying to be condescending, which is what i would usually be doing if i used those terms and therefore would be how i might more commonly interpret them. etc.

Is that even what this thread is about?

(Sorry I really have no clue.)

i'd say sort of. especially considering that the topic itself is fairly easily answered: no. "women" did not cause the recession. there topic settled, now i feel free to be off-topic so long as my themes are still mostly topical.

plus chig hasn't complained yet.

[Penguin]

i'm not interested in knocking anyone over it, as i am often guilty of it myself. i am merely interested in examining it in a context wherein it is not completely off-topic. i had noticed it from the beginning, but as with many of these things, it was a girl who mentioned it out loud first.

if you examine most of the flamier threads, you'll notice similar patterns.

[again i suggest everyone take a day to read the firepit]

also, the clinical psychology student in me would remind myself and other observers that this form of intellectual domination, quite apart from its sexism in itself, is actually more likely to re-enforce any existing gender biases.

indeed. linguistic biases are the hardest to avoid, and it is often impossible to tell exactly how someone will interpret what you say.

Agree.

[Joe Hillshoist]

There was a point in this thread where c2w said something to the effect of "You lot are fucked, if this wanker had said anything about race, religion or whatever you'd have been all over him, but because he's done the same thing about women you do nothing."

Of course she said it better and with more class.

I completely agreed, and felt like a turd, but at the same time earlier I has decided not to dignify that particular dumbfuck comment with a response.

My first thought on reading Steve's comments were "Shut up and grow a pair you whining bitch."

Good thing I didn't say that.

But yeah pretty much everything you said was right on the money OP ED.

(A campaign just started here in youth sports, trying to raise awareness of this kind of name calling in sports, often allowed or sometimes even encouraged by the coaches. Including calling people gays or girls, and even more so in the case that there are gay people in the teams...Sometimes leading young ones to drop the sport)

I don't insult people by calling them gay when I play footy tho, cos I don't think its an insult.

But I do the gender insult thing.

Its a lot more complicated than just being a chauvinist or mysoginist tho.

What you say about school and young males is true OP ED. Schools are designed to psychologically castrate boys. Its got nothing to do with the predominance of women in pre and early school teaching tho. Its what schooling is designed to do and the gender of the teachers has nothing to do with it.

Emasculation is one thing, equating it with female characteristics is another.

There's a team called the Geelong Cats, and those of us that hate them (ie everyone who doesn't support them) call them the pussies. But I had bever really made the connection between calling them pussies and female genitalia.

Its a pity we don't have other language for that cos really at least from my POV when I call someone a girl I don't mean a female.

(That doesn't change the effect it has on others tho, nor does it remove the damage it does re gender issues.

It doesn't excuse it either, does it.)

[Penguin]

I don't insult people by calling them gay when I play footy tho, cos I don't think its an insult.

But I do the gender insult thing.

Its a lot more complicated than just being a chauvinist or mysoginist tho.

What you say about school and young males is true OP ED. Schools are designed to psychologically castrate boys. Its got nothing to do with the predominance of women in pre and early school teaching tho. Its what schooling is designed to do and the gender of the teachers has nothing to do with it.

Emasculation is one thing, equating it with female characteristics is another.

I did not mean that but I can see how it looks like it.
I was merely pointing out that men are not taking their part in the daycare system and school, leading to less good male role models for the kids - and kids learn to think its natural that only women take care of children.

I should have made that clearer, it was me who said that and not OP ED.
My fellow workers in daycare were some pretty great women all around and I can say I enjoyed working in a women-dominated workplace far better than at most men-dominated workplaces - thou I have to add that it was not quite your average daycare regarding the educational philosophies they had in use. But its all about what kind of people we are, not the sex.

I was called gay a lot in high school, but that was probably because we spent quite a few breaks wrestling with a guy I had a crush on. Later it progressed all the way to french kisses and other assorted fondling, so they weren't entirely wrong either.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Was it, sorry.

Thats a good point tho. Spot on in fact.

I actually thought it was OP Ed cos I thought he said something about doing it for male female ratio reasons - and the opportunity it presented.

You know Thelemites and sex:

If it moves fuck it.

If it doesn't move, fuck it till it moves.




Then fuck it.

[brainpanhandler]

Material Girl

[Perelandra]

reminds me, wrt, slightly more seriously, sensitivities and feelings and/or effemininacies: [etc]
as much as Penguin's calling SM a girl is an male-centric-type insult, in the same vein, though less obvious are the suggestions, sometimes freudian, that his opinions reflect emotional disturbance, i.e. lack of nurture, etc. i am thinking specifically of the Cuda's suggestion that "someone needs a hug". Which, on a football field, would be remarkably insulting. apologies for digression. that just came to mind.

I'm just interested in why calling anyone a girl is an insult in the first place and I'm not suggesting we explore it here (whew!). The problem is likely nearly as old as time. I don't find anything insulting about being a girl or needing support. But then, I'm a girl. If I say someone needs a hug, I'm probably offering or asking for one.

As for epithets for women, I'm sure we who enjoy language could hijack this thread exponentially, but I'll resist that impulse. I'll just say that I have some thoughts (inspired by current reading material) about the "hag" and related terminology, which I may or may not share when convenient.

[Joe Hillshoist]

I'm just interested in why calling anyone a girl is an insult in the first place and I'm not suggesting we explore it here (whew!). The problem is likely nearly as old as time. I don't find anything insulting about being a girl or needing support. But then, I'm a girl. If I say someone needs a hug, I'm probably offering or asking for one.

Its not really.

This is my take. As a bloke.

As a man, as in adult male, there are certain things you should do (IMO). I don't think they are necessarily the exclusive property of men btw. But not doing them as a male deserves contempt. Whats the point of having balls(literally) if you don't act like you've got them(metaphorically)?

I might leave it at that cos I can sense myself digging a hole.

Nah fuck it.

Its territorial and primal, but it doesn't have to be expressed as all the worst aspects of machismo. Cryings alright, backing down from a fight cos you are trying to not bring anymore violence into the world is alright.

Backing down from a fight cos you're scared isn't.

Fucking up might not be alright. Being prepared to wear it is.

Informing on your friends or betrayal never is.

But overall its not a cut and dried thing.


Calling someone a girl, or gay is an attack on their masculinity, not because girls or being gay are somehow of less worth, its because they're outside the "norms" of accepted masculinity.



(This is norm btw.)

Although personally I don't think calling someone gay really works as an insult in that context, unless they're repressing something. I have a friend who thinks Pantera must be gay, and most or all of their fans. That much hypermasculinity and nothing else. Whats that about? Saying gay blokes aren't masculine is like saying the pope isn't a nazi rock spider. Flat out wrong.

Now my definition of what masculinity should be has something to do with what I wrote in the preceeding paragraphs of this post. Other guys have different interpretations. But the idea behind it is the same.

Not living up to your responsibilities as a man is really what generates the attack on someones masculinity tho.

Often the easiest way to express this is by saying "You big girls blouse" or words to that effect. Not cos being a girl is worth less than being a man, but how else do you convey the idea that someone is acting like they have no balls? Cept maybe to say "you've got no balls".

So its not the actual term "girl" thats meant to be the insult, just the implication that you have no balls.

As far as the specific thing with Morgellon S goes, he's a bit of a mysoginist. I've seen and heard far worse, but he's definitelt in the church, so calling him a girl when he spouts garbage that is sexist is just meant to be annoying. To him. If you hate girls so much we are gonna call you one.

Apart from his pathetic attitude toward women I quite like Stevo tho. But really when it comes to that he needs to grow a pair. And there's always gonna be that bitterness over the Ashes. So I kind of takle any opportunity I can to hang it on him.

BTW Its nice to catch up Perelandra. How are you doing?

[Pele'sDaughter]

Misogyny, up close and personalDecrying sexism from afar is one thing. More hurtful is the casual, everyday misogyny of the men we love and trust.

Despite feminists' reputation, and contra my own individual reputation cultivated over five years of public opinion-making as a blogger, I am not a man-hater.

If I played by misogynists' rules, specifically the one that dictates it only takes one woman doing one mean or duplicitous or disrespectful or unlawful or otherwise bad thing to justify hatred of all women, I would have plenty of justification for hating men, if I were inclined to do that sort of thing.

Most of my threatening hate mail comes from men. The most unrelentingly trouble-making trolls at my blog, Shakesville, have always been men. I've been cat-called and cow-called from moving vehicles countless times, subjected to other forms of street harassment and sexually harassed at work, always by men. I have been sexually assaulted – if one includes rape, attempted rape, unsolicited touching of breasts, buttocks and/or genitals, nonconsensual frottage on public transportation and flashing – by dozens of people during my lifetime, some known to me, some strangers, all men.

But I don't hate men, because I play by different rules. In fact, there are men in this world whom I love quite a lot.

There are also individual men in this world I would say I probably hate, or something close – men who I hold in unfathomable contempt. But it is not because they are men.

No, I don't hate men.

It would, however, be fair to say that I don't easily trust them.

My mistrust is not, as one might expect, primarily a result of the violent acts done on my body, nor the vicious humiliations done to my dignity. It is, instead, born of the multitude of mundane betrayals that mark my every relationship with a man: the casual rape joke, the use of a female slur, the careless demonising of the feminine in everyday conversation, the accusations of overreaction, the eye rolling and exasperated sighs in response to polite requests to please not use misogynist epithets in my presence or to please use non-gendered language ("humankind").

There are the insidious assumptions guiding our interactions – the supposition that I will regard being exceptionalised as a compliment ("you're not like those other women"), and the presumption that I am an ally against certain kinds of women. Surely, we're all in agreement that Britney Spears is a dirty slut who deserves nothing but a steady stream of misogynist vitriol whenever her name is mentioned, right? Always the subtle pressure to abandon my principles to trash this woman or that woman, as if I'll never twig to the reality that there's always a justification for unleashing the misogyny, for hating a woman in ways reserved only for women.

I am exhorted to join in the cruel revelry, and when I refuse, suddenly the target is on my back. And so it goes.

There are the jokes about women, about wives, about mothers, about raising daughters, about female bosses. They are told in my presence by men who are meant to care about me, just to get a rise out of me, as though I am meant to find funny a reminder of my second-class status.

I am meant to ignore that this is a bullying tactic, that the men telling these jokes derive their amusement specifically from knowing they upset me, piss me off, hurt me. They tell them and I can laugh, and they can thus feel superior, or I can not laugh, and they can thus feel superior. Heads they win, tails I lose.

I am used as a prop in an ongoing game of patriarchal posturing, and then I am meant to believe it is true when some of the men who enjoy this sport, in which I am their pawn, tell me: "I love you." I love you, my daughter. I love you, my niece. I love you, my friend. I am meant to trust these words.

There are the occasions that men – intellectual men, clever men, engaged men – insist on playing devil's advocate, desirous of a debate on some aspect of feminist theory or reproductive rights or some other subject generally filed under the heading Women's Issues. These intellectual, clever, engaged men want to endlessly probe my argument for weaknesses, wrestle over details, argue just for fun. And they wonder, these intellectual, clever, engaged men, why my voice keeps rising and why my face is flushed and why, after an hour of fighting my corner, hot tears burn the corners of my eyes.

Why do you have to take this stuff so personally? ask the intellectual, clever, and engaged men, who have never considered that the content of the abstract exercise that's so much fun for them is the stuff of my life.

There is the perplexity at my fury that my life experience is not considered more relevant than the opinionated pronouncements of men who make a pastime of informal observation, as if womanhood were an exotic locale which provides magnificent fodder for the amateur ethnographer. And there is the haughty dismissal of my assertion that being on the outside looking in doesn't make one more objective. It merely provides a different perspective.

There are the persistent, tiresome pronouncements of similitude between men's and women's experiences, the belligerent insistence that handsome men are objectified by women, too, that women pinch men's butts sometimes, too, that men are expected to look a certain way at work, too, that women rape, too, and other equivalencies that conveniently and stupidly ignore institutional inequities that mean X rarely equals Y.

And there are the long-suffering groans that meet any attempt to contextualise sexism and refute the idea that such indignities, grim though they all may be, are not necessarily equally oppressive.

There are the stereotypes – oh, the abundant stereotypes – about women, not me, of course, but other women, those women with their bad driving and their relentless shopping habits and their PMS and their disgusting vanity and their inability to stop talking and their disinterest in Important Things and their trying to trap men and their getting pregnant on purpose and their false rape accusations and their being bitches, sluts, whores, cunts.

And I am expected to nod in agreement, and I am nudged and admonished to agree. I am expected to say these things are not true of me, but are true of women (am I seceding from the union?). I am expected to put my stamp of token approval on the stereotypes. Yes, it's true. Between you and me, it's all true.

That's what is wanted from me. Abdication of my principles and pride, in service to a patriarchal system that will only use my collusion to further subjugate me. This is a thing that is asked of me by men who purport to care for me.

There is the unwillingness to listen, a ferociously stubborn not getting it on so many things, so many important things. And the obdurate refusal to believe, to internalise, that my outrage is not manufactured and my injury not make-believe – an inflexible rejection of the possibility that my pain is authentic, in favour of the consolatory belief that I am angry because I'm a feminist (rather than the truth: that I'm a feminist because I'm angry).

And there is the denial about engaging in misogyny, even when it's evident, even when it's pointed out gently, softly, indulgently, carefully, with goodwill and the presumption that it was not intentional. There is the firm, fixed, unyielding denial – because it is better and easier to imply that I'm stupid or crazy or hysterical, that I have imagined being insulted by someone about whom I care (just for the fun of it!), than it is to just admit a bloody mistake and say, simply: I'm sorry.

Not every man does all of these things, or even most of them, and certainly not all the time. But it only takes one, randomly and occasionally, exploding in a shower of cartoon stars like an unexpected punch in the nose, to send me staggering sideways, wondering what just happened. Well. I certainly didn't see that coming.

These things are not the habits of deliberately cruel men. They are, in fact, the habits of the men in this world I love quite a lot.

All of whom have given me reason to mistrust them, to use my distrust as a self-protection mechanism, as an essential tool to get through every day, because I never know when I might next get knocked off-kilter with something that puts me in the position, once again, of choosing between my dignity and the serenity of our relationship.

It can come out of nowhere, and usually does. Which leaves me mistrustful by both necessity and design. Not fearful, just resigned – and on my guard. More vulnerability than that allows for the possibility of wounds that do not heal. Wounds to our relationship, the sort of irreparable damage that leaves one unable to look in the eye someone that you loved once upon a time.

This, then, is the terrible bargain we have regretfully struck: Men are allowed the easy comfort of their unexamined privilege, but my regard will always be shot through with a steely, anxious bolt of caution.

A shitty bargain all around, really. But there it is.

There are men who will read this post and think, huffily, dismissively, that a person of colour could write a post very much like this one about white people, about me. That's absolutely right. So could a lesbian, a gay man, a bisexual, an asexual. So could a trans or intersex person (which hardly makes a comprehensive list).

I'm OK with that. I don't feel hated. I feel mistrusted – and I understand it. I respect it. It means, for me, I must be vigilant and make myself trustworthy. Every day.

I hope those men will hear me when I say, again, I do not hate you. I mistrust you. You can tell yourselves that's a problem with me, some inherent flaw, some evidence that I am fucked up and broken and weird. You can choose to believe that the women in your lives are nothing like me.

Or you can be vigilant and make yourselves trustworthy. Every day.

Just in case they're more like me than you think.

http://tinyurl.com/kjwed9

[compared2what?]

Praise be unto Pele'sDaughter. More soon.

[norton ash]

Asshole predatory criminal bankers caused the recession. Lots of men and women in the industry had to play along to keep earning, and not lose their jobs. Too many PEOPLE are materialist little swine who write cheques they can't cash for shit they don't need and can't afford, and the industry cried "Step right up, suckers."

Basta.

[Perelandra]

Thank you for that Pele'sDaughter.

Yesterday in public, I had to witness a man repeatedly calling his daughter "drama queen" because she heaved a sigh, as it was hot and she was running around. She was six. I wish I had known how to protest more strongly.

Joe, always a pleasure. It's been a very busy and productive summer.

I believe I understand your views on the name-calling and I respect you and the Penguin. However, there's a principle here wherein it's implied that the male is the norm and the female is pejorative. Of course, there are people who actively mean such a definition. I just wonder how much we contribute to keeping things as they've historically been, innocently or not. JMO.

Carry on.

[Penguin]

However, there's a principle here wherein it's implied that the male is the norm and the female is pejorative. Of course, there are people who actively mean such a definition. I just wonder how much we contribute to keeping things as they've historically been, innocently or not. JMO.

Carry on.

Yes. That was what I was getting at - in a crude way as an afterthought.
Thank you and sorry.

[OP ED]

so much to do and so little time. i think i shall die of dementia before i ever accomplish anything...

Thank you for that Pele'sDaughter.

indeed. always educational. [also you have a great username]

every party needs more ladies in attendance.

Yesterday in public, I had to witness a man repeatedly calling his daughter "drama queen" because she heaved a sigh, as it was hot and she was running around. She was six. I wish I had known how to protest more strongly.

This is where Joe's notions of balls come in, btw, in the traditional sense. Men weren't evolved into high functioning predators to fight off wolves and shite. we're all monkeys after all and we could already climb tress for that sort of safety. They were evolved to keep other men in their place. [literally]

Those men who possess both brains and brawn consider it their instinctual responsibility to inform those such as you describe above, in no uncertain terms, that they are dickheads and are behaving inappropriately, i.e. not as men should behave.

that we often do this in insensetive ways and with biased language is not excusable, even if it is understandable as a product of our poisonous overculture. I suggest, again quite apart from the effects of our unwitting sexism on the wimmens around us, that we owe it also to ourselves and our gender to refine our methods for doing so into something which is worthy of apex predators.

those are my thoughts on it anyway. i think in light of accusations of bandwagoning, that it is important for me personally to make this clearly understood: my ongoing attempts to refine my own behavior into something less oppressive towards women often has little to do with the individual womens themselves, and moreso with living up to my own expectations.

which is a convoluted way of agreeing with PD's comment that what is wanted is an:

Abdication of my principles and pride, in service to a patriarchal system that will only use my collusion to further subjugate me.

and that both its means and its end is true for everyone.

[although experienced differently by everyone]

I believe I understand your views on the name-calling and I respect you and the Penguin. However, there's a principle here wherein it's implied that the male is the norm and the female is pejorative. Of course, there are people who actively mean such a definition. I just wonder how much we contribute to keeping things as they've historically been, innocently or not. JMO.

i don't think its just your opinion either. Not being the greatest fan of how things have historically been, i am very much in favor of adjusting the parameters to improve our relative conditions....

this is, of course, easier to say than to actually do. An example being the forementioned non-gendered language, which i am unable to master, as i tend to speak/write from my own perspective, and the old biases of language, be they gender based or otherwise, are deep and not always even obvious.

...

OP ED has more thoughts, but feels he has imposed enough of them for now.