Fisk implies US provoking civil war in Iraq

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Fisk implies US provoking civil war in Iraq

Postby Rigorous Intuition » Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:34 pm

<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1582067.htm">Australian TV interview, March 2</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->:<br><br>TONY JONES: Now, unless you've changed your position in recent days, the one thing that you and President Bush agree on is there's not going to be a civil war in Iraq.<br><br>ROBERT FISK: Yeah, I listened to Bush. It made me doubt myself when I heard him say that. I still go along and say what I said before - Iraq is not a sectarian society, but a tribal society. People are intermarried. Shiites and Sunnis marry each other. It's not a question of having a huge block of people here called Shiites and a huge block of people called Sunnis any more than you can do the same with the United States, saying Blacks are here and Protestants are here and so on. But certainly, somebody at the moment is trying to provoke a civil war in Iraq. Someone wants a civil war. Some form of militias and death squads want a civil war. There never has been a civil war in Iraq. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>The real question I ask myself is: who are these people who are trying to provoke the civil war?</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> Now the Americans will say it's Al Qaeda, it's the Sunni insurgents. It is the death squads. Many of the death squads work for the Ministry of Interior. Who runs the Ministry of Interior in Baghdad? Who pays the Ministry of the Interior? <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Who pays the militia men who make up the death squads? We do, the occupation authorities. I'd like to know what the Americans are doing to get at the people who are trying to provoke the civil war. It seems to me not very much.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> We don't hear of any suicide bombers being stopped before they blow themselves up. We don't hear of anybody stopping a mosque getting blown up. We're not hearing of death squads all being arrested. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Something is going very, very wrong in Baghdad. Something is going wrong with the Administration.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> Mr Bush says, "Oh, yes, sure, I talk to the Shiites and I talk to the Sunnis." He's talking to a small bunch of people living behind American machine guns inside the so-called Green Zone, the former Republican palace of Saddam Hussein, which is surrounded by massive concrete walls like a crusader castle. These people do not and cannot even leave this crusader castle. If they want to leave to the airport, they're helicoptered to the airport. They can't even travel on the airport road. What we've got at the moment is a little nexus of people all of whom live under American protection and talk on the telephone to George W Bush who says, "I've been talking to them and they have to choose between chaos and unity." These people can't even control the roads 50 metres from the Green Zone in which they work.<br><br>TONY JONES: OK.<br><br>ROBERT FISK: There's total chaos now in Iraq.<br><br>TONY JONES: Let's go back, if we can, to start answering that question about who wants civil war. Back one week to the bombing of the golden shrine in Samarra. Now, most people do think the only people with reasons for doing that would be the Al Qaeda in Iraq group led by al-Zarqawi. You don't agree?<br><br>ROBERT FISK: Well, I don't know if al-Zarqawi is alive. You know, al-Zarqawi did exist before the American Anglo-American invasion. He was up in the Kurdish area, which was not actually properly controlled by Saddam. But after that he seems to have disappeared. We know there's an identity card that pops up. We know the Americans say we think we've recognised him on a videotape. Who recognises him on a videotape? How many Americans have ever met al-Zarqawi? Al-Zarqawi's mother died more than 12 months ago and he didn't even send commiserations or say "I'm sorry to hear that". His wife of whom he was very possessive is so poor she has to go out and work in the family town of Zarqa. Hence the name Zarqawi. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>I don't know if al-Zarqawi is alive or exists at the moment. I don't know if he isn't a sort of creature invented in order to fill in the narrative gaps, so to speak. What is going on in Iraq at the moment is extremely mysterious.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> I go to Iraq and I can't crack this story at the moment. Some of my colleagues are still trying to, but can't do it. It's not as simple as it looks. I don't believe we've got all these raving lunatics wandering around blowing up mosques. There's much more to this than meets the eye. All of these death squads that move around are part of the security forces. In some cases they are Shiite security forces or clearly Sunni security forces. When the Iraqi army go into Sunni cities they are Shiite soldiers going in. We are not making this clear. Iraqi troops, we've got an extra battalion. The Iraqi army is building up. The Iraqi army is split apart. Somebody is operating these people. I don't know who they are. It's not as simple as we're making it out to be. What is this thing when Bush says we have to choose between chaos and unity? Who wants to choose chaos? Is it really the case that all of these Iraqis that fought together for eight years against the Iranians, Shiites and Sunnies together in the long massive murderous Somme-like war between the Iranians and Iraqis - suddenly all want to kill each other? Why because that's something wrong with Iraqis? I don't think so. They are intelligent, educated people. Something is going seriously wrong in Baghdad.<br><br>TONY JONES: Can we look at one thing that might possibly be wrong, the Sunnis feel like they are being left out of the political equation. The Shias could end up running the majority of the government because they are indeed in the majority in a democracy.<br><br>ROBERT FISK: They do run the Government now. The Shiites do run the Government.<br><br>TONY JONES: Indeed. Couldn't that precisely be one of the reasons for the violence?<br><br>ROBERT FISK: Because the Sunnis don't have power anymore? But we've been saying this if the start. Don't you remember that after 2003 the Anglo-American invasion, the resistance started against the Americans and we were told they were Saddam remnants, 'dead-enders', that was the phrase used. Not anymore, because there are 40,000 insurgents, but that was the phase used at the time. They were Sunnis. They didn't like the fact they didn't have power. Then we captured Saddam and Paul Bremer, the number two pro-Consule in Baghdad, says, "Oh, we've got him," and everything was going to be OK. And then the insurgency got worse still. The reason was because people who wanted to join the insurgency feared that if they beat him out he might come back. Well, the moment Saddam was captured, they knew they could join the insurgency and Saddam wouldn't come back. I mean, there is something wrong in the narrative sequence that we've been given. You know, the idea that the Sunni community is suddenly sacrificing themselves en mass, strapping explosive belts to themselves and blowing themselves up all over Iraq because they don't have power anymore is a very odd reflection. I think what is going on among the Sunni community is much simpler. The Sunnis are not fighting the Americans because they don't have power and they're not fighting the Americans just to get them out - and they will get them out eventually. They are fighting the Americans so that they will say, "We have a right to power because we fought the occupying forces and you, the Shiites, did not," which is why it's very important to discover now that Moqtada al-Sadr, who has an ever-increasing power base among the Shiite community, is himself threatening to fight the British and Americans. Now, if the Shiites and Sunnies come together, as they did in the 1920s in the insurgency against the British, then we are finished in Iraq. And that will mean that Iraq actually will be united.<br><br>TONY JONES: But, Robert Fisk, what's is happening now, by all accounts and, indeed, the accounts of these Washington Post reporters who've been into the morgue and report hundreds of bodies of Sunnies who evidently have been garroted or suffocated or shot, are all saying that Moqtada al-Sadr's thugs have actually taken these people away and murdered them. That was in revenge for the Golden Shrine bombing.<br><br>ROBERT FISK: Yeah, look, in August, I went into the same mortuary and found out that 1,000 people had died in one month in July. And most of those people who had died were split 50/50 between the Sunnies and the Shiites, but most of them, including women who'd been blindfolded and hands tied behind their backs - I saw the corpses - were both Sunnies and Shiites. Now, I'm not complaining that the Washington Post got it wrong - I'm sure there are massacres going on by Shiites - but I think they are going on by militias on both sides. What I'd like to know is who is running the Interior Ministry? Who is paying the Interior Ministry? Who is paying the gunmen who work for the Interior Ministry? I go into the Interior Ministry in Baghdad and I see lots and lots of armed men wearing black leather. Who is paying these guys? Well, we are, of course. The money isn't falling out of the sky. It's coming from the occupation powers and Iraqi's Government, which we effectively run because, as we know, they can't even create a constitution without the American and British ambassadors being present. We need to look at this story in a different light. That narrative that we're getting - that there are death squads and that the Iraqis are all going to kill each other, the idea that the whole society is going to commit mass suicide - is not possible, it's not logical. There is something else going on in Iraq. Don't ask me to...<br><br> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Fisk implies US provoking civil war in Iraq

Postby chiggerbit » Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 pm

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Who is paying these guys? </em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>It's called "outsourcing". <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Who wants to choose chaos?

Postby Iroquois » Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:44 pm

Fisk made some very powerful declarations here. I hope more people get exposed to what he's saying here. Hopefully, it will find its way into the editorial pages of some newspapers.<br><br>Most of what he said, I was already on the same page about. I'm not quite sure what he meant by this, however:<br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Iraqi troops, we've got an extra battalion. The Iraqi army is building up. The Iraqi army is split apart.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Maybe he'll clarify that in a followup interview or an article he has in the works.<br><br>Overall, this was some powerful stuff. And, I'm very encouraged to hear that he knows of other journalists who are still working in Iraq, trying to break the al-Qaeda/al-Zarqawi narrative being spun by CENTCOM and their handlers. Pull hard enough on that thread and all that crafted propaganda for the WoT, now "The Long War", unravels at their feet. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Who wants to choose chaos?

Postby Qutb » Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:56 pm

I agree, very powerful declarations. All the more coming from Fisk, who's perhaps the western journalist who knows the Middle East best. <br><br>And he's right, of course. Something is terribly wrong in Iraq, even for that troubled country. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Is there still an al- Zarqawi to kick around?

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:24 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> I don't know if al-Zarqawi is alive or exists at the moment. I don't know if he isn't a sort of creature invented in order to fill in the narrative gaps, so to speak. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Ah, filling in the narrative.<br>Former CIA Milt Bearden has said Osama bin Laden has been made to serve the same role by the US government .<br><br>After wondering just how tight with CIA James Risen really is since he co-wrote a book with former CIA op Milt Bearden about the last days of CIA vs KGB called 'The Main Enemy,' I looked at interviews with Bearden.<br><br>I found two, one from 1999 on PBS' Frontline and one from 9/11/01 with Dan Rather, where he scoffed at the idea that bin Laden was a super boogeyman and characterized him as a US-fabricated 'Northern Star' serving the narrative purposes of both the US government and Muslim extremists. Bearden also perpetuates the lie that Libya was behind the Lockerbie PanAm 103 bombing so he's by no means trustworthy. But it is interesting to hear him say that the bin Laden myth is a political construct.<br><br>Perhaps Bearden wishes to knock down the bin Laden myth because of how it rallies Muslims, not because of its role in US reactions to it. And certainly not out of respect for 'the truth' of the matter, lol, just look at his career and his oh so ironic comment that bin Laden is blamed for everything except "the grassy knoll.'<br><br>Talk about spin, Mr Bearden, my my.<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/interviews/bearden.html">www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/fr...arden.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>>snip<<br>Milton Bearden<br>He was with the Central Intelligence Agency from 1964-1994. As its field officer in Afghanistan, he oversaw the CIA's $3bn covert aid program for Afghan rebels fighting the Soviets. During the 1980's, he was CIA station chief in the Sudan. He evaluates the Afghan war's importance to the Muslim world and bin Laden's role in it. He also questions classifying the Sudan as a 'terrorist state' and criticizes America's retaliatory missile strike in the Sudan against bin Laden.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>You've talked about in this thing of the sheer and utter nonsense of bin Laden's combat career or importance in Afghanistan as the creating of a new North Star. What do you mean?</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What I mean is there are two sides to what I think is a cultural clash here in 1999. You have on the one side essentially the United States and to a much, much smaller degree the United Kingdom, on the other side you have, call it fundamentalist Islam. Both sides are rallied behind what I am calling the North Star, and that's Osama bin Laden. For the United States, he is public enemy number one. We've got a $5 million reward out for his head. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>We've blamed him for every horrible event in our history except the grassy knoll. And now we have, with I'm not sure what evidence, linked him to all of the terrorist acts of this year ... of this decade, perhaps. That's what he means to us. That's why what I say he is our North Star.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> On the other side, we have given fundamentalist Islam their North Star, a rallying point. If the enemy of our enemy is our friend, then Osama bin Laden is the North Star to every fundamentalist Muslim who goes to Friday prayers and hears a mullah condemn the United States. So, it seems there's that common bond, the thing that brings us together is the North Star, and we're just viewing it from different perspectives. ...<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There's a lot of fiction in there. But we like that. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>It's the whole Osama bin Laden mythology. It's almost part entertainment.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> We don't have a national enemy. We haven't had a national enemy since the evil empire slipped beneath the waves in 1991. And I think we kind of like this way. We like this whole international terrorist thing oddly enough at a time when it probably is changing its character dramatically. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>Dr. Len Horowitz cited Bearden on his website on 9/12/01 as a warning to his readers of the manipulations from false-flag operations and the role of Big Pharma in governance.<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.tetrahedron.org/news/attack_on_america.html">www.tetrahedron.org/news/...erica.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br>>snip<<br><br>Osama bin Laden, the Islamic devil incarnate, is a classic creation of this spin.<br><br>This evening (Sept. 12, 2001) I watched a CBS Evening News special report with Dan Rather. He interviewed Milt Bearden, a retired high ranking CIA officer with "deep experience in the Sudan and Afganistan." Here he apparently directed bin Laden's covert CIA operation known as Maktab al-Khidamar-the MAK. Mr. Rather asked Bearden if he thought bin Laden was responsible for the terrorist "Attack on America." Bearden downright snubbed the possibility. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Instead, he explained, a far more sophisticated intelligence operation had to be behind these precise coordinated attacks.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>Dan Rather, committed to demonizing bin Laden, restated his concern.<br><br><!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>"Look," Bearden surprisingly blurted, referring to the intelligence organization(s)responsible for the terrorist attacks, "if they didn't have an Osama bin Laden, they would invent one."</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br><br>As soon as Bearden left the set, Rather returned to demonizing bin Laden.<br><br>>snip<<br><br> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hughmanateewins>Hugh Manatee Wins</A> at: 3/4/06 1:34 pm<br></i>
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Re: Iraq´s battalions

Postby hmm » Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:28 pm

from what i gather iraq´s army consists of various para-military groups arranged along sectarian lines in "battalions" with at least one consisting of ex-saddam era special forces... <p></p><i></i>
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Daniel Pipes from the same broadcast

Postby Rigorous Intuition » Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:47 pm

<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1582736.htm" target="top">transcript here</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->:<br><br>TONY JONES: Can you explain to me how you could regard a civil war in Iraq as anything but a strategic disaster? <br><br>DR DANIEL PIPES: Well, let me start by emphasising that it it is a humanitarian disaster and in no sense do I want one to take place. It's a horrible prospect. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Should, however, it take place I don't, think from the point of view of the coalition it is necessarily that bad for our interests.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> <br><br>TONY JONES: Can you tell us why you think that? And I suppose the broader question is do you think that other people, that people within the administration are thinking the same way? <br><br>DR DANIEL PIPES: No, I don't think they're thinking the same way because I think they aspire to create a new Iraq. I don't aspire to it. I think our coalition, Australian, American, British and other achievement was in getting rid of Saddam Hussein. This was an extraordinary development and wonderful for the Iraqis for the region, and for ourselves. That does mean that we're in a position to create a new Iraq, a free and prosperous Iraq. That is up to the Iraqis. No matter how many soldiers we put in, it will be the Iraqis who decide their future. We can help them with money, with soldiers, and other means, but it is they who make this decision. From that point of view, should there be a civil war in Iraq, there are various trends which will be disrupted, trends which I think are negative. <br><br>TONY JONES: Tell me what sort of trends you're talking about? Because I'm still struggling to understand how it would be anything but a strategic disaster. <br><br>DR DANIEL PIPES: Well, in the first place, there would be fewer attacks on our forces in Iraq as they fight each other. More broadly outside Iraq. There would be fewer attacks on us as the Shi'ites and the Sunnis attack each other. The imperative that the US Government, in particular, has been following would be shunted aside - an imperative which I think has led to negative results, because the victors in democracy, whether it be Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, have in all these cases been our most extreme enemies - the Islamists. And I think as developments in Iraq slow down the democracy process, so it will elsewhere and we will be the better for it. <br><br>TONY JONES: I'll come back to this question about the democracy experiment in Iraq in a moment, because there is a change of mood, it seems, among a lot of commentators in the United States on this question, on both sides of politics. But first, if your strategic assessment is right, or even if it's right, surely the United States would have both a legal and a moral obligation to step in between the two sides and stop a civil war? <br><br>DR DANIEL PIPES: I don't think so. Let me give a bit of history. Post-World War I the British and French victors, extracted, as historically victors had, money and other benefits from the defeated German and other powers. Post-World War II, the American and other victors did not extract money from Germany and Japan, but gave them money and it worked. Germany and Japan were rehabilitated. Since 1945, 60 years now, the notion that the victor pays, rehabilitates has become an assumption. I have nothing against it. It worked very well in 1945 but I don't believe it's a legal and moral obligation. I believe when one goes to war, one goes to defeat one's enemy not to rehabilitate them. <br><br>TONY JONES: Would I mind if I interrupt. You may not think it's a legal obligation, but under international law, occupying forces do have the duty, the legal duty, to protect civilians in the country that they're occupying. <br><br>DR DANIEL PIPES: I don't believe, at this point, the coalition forces in Iraq constitute an occupation no more than say American forces in Europe are an occupation force at this point. They are there at the invitation of the Government and can be told by the government to leave. So this is not an occupation anymore. There is now a constituted government in Iraq. I say the Iraqis are adults they are not our wards. They will define their future. We can help them but it is not our burden to re-establish, to rehabilitate Iraq on a new basis. <br><br>TONY JONES: If you don't accept the legal argument, what about the moral one? <br><br>DR DANIEL PIPES: The moral one is a good one, but it's not a defining one. That is to say that we do want to help Iraqis. All of us want to see a free and prosperous Iraq, but it is not a moral obligation on us. Just because we got rid of Saddam Hussein doesn't mean that we are obligated to fix Iraq. I think the great achievement of the coalition was to get rid of this hideous totalitarian thug running Iraq. A danger to the Iraqis, the region and the outside world. That does not imply that we must - we can try - but it doesn't mean we must or are obligated - to fix Iraq. And I don't think we can fix Iraq. If thought we could I'd say, "Let's try it. " I don't think the Iraqis want us there to fix Iraq. The big difference, the key difference, between the Germans and the Japanese 60 years ago and the Iraqis today is that the Germans and Japanese went through years of total war, were smashed by it. The Iraqis went through six weeks of very limited war, and came out liberated and feeling they they are in a position to determine their destiny. I say good for them, let them do that. <br><br>TONY JONES: Isn't it far too cold-blooded a calculation for the invading force to say, "Well if the Shi'ia and Sunni are shooting and killing each other, at least they're not shooting at us?" <br><br>DR DANIEL PIPES: Let me emphasise I do not want them to be shooting each other. I wish that the communities found a way to work together. I'm just saying should there be a civil war, it is not necessarily all that bad for our interests. By no means am I endorsing it, by no means do I want one. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>I'm looking at it in a cool way and saying there are advantages to it</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. Let me emphasise that does not mean I want it to happen. <br> <p></p><i></i>
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an email from Iraq sent today

Postby Rigorous Intuition » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:44 pm

"from someone on the Christian Peacemaker Team in Iraq (which has 4 of its members being held hostage since November 26)." (<!--EZCODE LINK START--><a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x574989">link</a><!--EZCODE LINK END-->)<br><br><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>"Since the bombing of the Al-Askari Shrine in Samarra on 22 February 2006, local media and friends have deluged the Christian Peacemaker Team (CPT) in Iraq with information. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Iraqi Islamic television reported that the U.S. military and Iraqi police were seen at the shrine the night before it was bombed. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->The next morning, two shrine guards were found alive but handcuffed inside. Baghdadiya television aired the same report. The Minister of Housing and Reconstruction said the job would have taken ten men about twelve hours to set up enough explosives to do this kind of damage. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>We have not heard this information reported outside Iraq.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> The U.S. made offers to rebuild the shrine, but the Iraqi Islamic Party asked that repair be delayed until an independent investigation was completed. Samarra citizens have locked down the shrine to preserve evidence.<br><br>While Baghdad and surrounding provinces were under strict curfew, CPT received calls from friends who described mosques under attack and gun battles in the streets. Iraqi Islamic TV reported that men dressed in black burned down a village near Dialla. The next day the Iraqi military, the Mehdi army and U.S. Apache helicopters attacked the same village. A day later, we heard that Iraqi Islamic TV, which aired footage of the attack, was bombed.<br><br>One night, we counted the thuds of mortars dropping on a neighborhood across the river. We've listened to gun battles, watched the smoke rise from a car bombing in our neighborhood and sat with our neighbors as they wept in despair. We've received reports of sectarian cleansing and mass deportations. The team has searched the prisons for friends taken in raids and gone to the morgue to identify the dead.<br><br>But the news isn't all bad. While the New York Times and other media focus on ethnic hatred, sectarian violence, and civil war, we receive other reports that most of the western media ignore. <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>A team friend calls us daily with stories of Sunni/Shi'a unity, cries for peace, and the deep passion of all Iraqis to live as one family</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->. In neighborhoods that have been hotbeds of violence, we hear of Sunni and Shi'a working together to repair and rebuild damaged mosques. Shi'a Iraqis have protected Sunni mosques in their neighborhoods. In a Basrah shrine, Sunni and Shi'a have gathered to pray together.<br><br>While people in power seem to manipulate events, pitting groups against each other, and military advisors trained in counterinsurgency plot terror campaigns behind closed doors ( See "The Way of the Commandos," _NY Times Magazine_, May 2005), heroic acts of love and kindness among the people in this tattered country go on unnoticed. We continue in our efforts to work with a Sunni, Shi'a and Christian coalition to develop a human rights campaign for all people in Iraq. Human Rights groups continue to form, teenagers continue attend nonviolent conflict resolution classes and hope for the future still remains."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: the extra battalion

Postby Iroquois » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:44 pm

Thanks, hmm. That makes those sentences Fisk said about the Iraqi army much more clear. I didn't know about the battalion of ex-Iraqi special forces. <p></p><i></i>
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Re: Not that bad

Postby Qutb » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:55 pm

Daniel Pipes basically admitted it. "Not that bad for our interests." <p></p><i></i>
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Re: hostages

Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:57 pm

Seems the journalists and humanitarians who have the contacts and evidence contrary to the White House's spin get taken hostage.<br><br>"Qui bono?" <p></p><i></i>
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Murdoch's Bilge in the UK

Postby antiaristo » Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:22 pm

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The Sunday Times February 26, 2006 <br><br><!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="font-size:small;">Total war: Inside the new Al-Qaeda</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><br><br>Last week’s desecration of a Shi’ite shrine moved Iraq towards civil war. Abdel Bari Atwan, who has had unique access to Osama Bin Laden, explains why Al-Qaeda wants to divide Islam <br> <br>Osama Bin Laden, who had been sitting cross-legged on a carpet, placed his Kalashnikov rifle on the ground and got up. He came towards me with a warm smile that turned into barely repressed laughter as he took in the way I was dressed. <br><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <br><br>If you really want to read this fairy story it's here<br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2058597,00.html">www.timesonline.co.uk/art...97,00.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--> <p></p><i></i>
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Re: the extra battalion

Postby hmm » Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:44 pm

Things are complicated as the iraqi army is in a state of change,partly due to having 3 different "governments" in the last few years, but this was the official position on who could be in the iraqi army..<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/nia.htm">www.globalsecurity.org/mi...aq/nia.htm</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> CPA Order Number 22, Creation of a New Iraqi Army, August 7, 2003, established a military force for the national self-defense of a future free Iraq. CPA Order Number 23, Creation of a Code of Military Discipline for the New Iraqi Army, August 7, 2003, established a system of discipline to maintain order in the New Iraqi Army.<br><br>Excluded from New Iraqi Army include:<br><br> * Former persons from regime security organizations<br> * Intel organizations<br> * Special Republican Guards<br> * SSO<br> * <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Ba'ath Party security and militia organizations</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br> * Top-level Ba'ath Party members <br><br>Former military officers of the rank of Lt Col and below were being accepted into the new organization with all other males between the age of 18-40 years and not listed on excluded list allowed to sign up at recruiting centers.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>and these are the largest (collaborating) militia's as far as i know..<br><br>The kurdish militia's:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshmerga">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshmerga</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In late 2004, when Arab Iraqi Police and ING (Iraqi National Guard) soldiers were ineffective against attacks from insurgents and the city of Mosul collapsed, Kurdish Peshmerga battalions, who'd recently been converted into ING forces, led the counter-attack alongside US military units. To this day, there are a number of Kurdish battalions of former Peshmerga in the Iraqi Army serving in Northern Iraq.<br><br>It is estimated that as of January, 2005 there were 80,000 Peshmerga fighters in Northern Iraq. A February 2005 The New York Times article mentioned that Massoud Barzani wants to retain the Peshmerga forces. The article estimates their number to be 100,000.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>The collaborating Shi'ite militia:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GL10Ak01.html">www.atimes.com/atimes/Mid...0Ak01.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>It is widely believed that on the eve of the invasion of Iraq the Badr Corps controlled around 10,000-15,000 fighters, 3,000 of whom were professionally trained (many of these being Iraqi Army defectors and former prisoners of war). However, the core of the Badr fighting forces was composed of about 1,500 ideologically-committed combatants<br>~snip~<br>In fact as the insurgency situation deteriorated sharply in late 2004, the Americans decided to involve the Badr in official security planning and counter-insurgency operations. This set the stage for the entry of Badr personnel and agents into the defense and interior ministries.<br><br>The situation changed dramatically after this January's elections, which resulted in a massive victory by the SCIRI and its allies, and which led to the creation of the Ibrahim Jaafari government in April. From the very early days of the Jaafari government, the Badr was given virtual control over the Interior Ministry, with Bayan Jabr (a former Badr Corps commander and SCIRI leader) being appointed the interior minister.<br><br>This enabled the Badr to capture the top positions at the ministry and exert significant influence on counter-insurgency planning and operations. The Badr set up new counter-insurgency units, which are widely regarded as the most motivated and effective components of the new Iraqi security forces.<br><br>The Badr Organization was instrumental in the creation of the elite anti-insurgency unit known as al-Liwa al-Dheeb (Wolf Brigade). The Wolf Brigade initially operated in the north of Iraq, particularly in Tal Afar and Mosul, but in recent months it has assumed a security role in Baghdad as well. The Badr also set up the Scorpion Brigade, which specializes in intelligence-led security sweeps against insurgent hideouts, bases and safe-houses in urban areas, particularly western Baghdad.<br><br>Aside from its heavy involvement in security and paramilitary operations against the insurgents, the Badr is also using its intelligence apparatus to collect information on a range of targets in Iraq. The Badr initially set up its intelligence apparatus in the city of Kut in April 2003. The intelligence network was under the control of Sayyid Abbas Fadhil, a senior SCIRI leader, who declared himself mayor of Kut after entering the town on April 10. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>and the worst:<br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0504/p01s04-woiq.html">www.csmonitor.com/2005/05...-woiq.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr><br>In fact, many of the old members of Saddam Hussein's security forces are filling the ranks of the new police units and security forces. And many of these hardened soldiers practiced in the brutality of his regime initially received no Western-style training, says Robert Perito, an expert on post conflict security at the US Institute of Peace.<br><br>"In the long run, with the assistance of the US military unfortunately ... [we are creating] a security force which is very much like the old Saddam security forces," says Perito. "That's not what we set out to do."<br><br>Shortcomings<br><br>Perito says 40,000 Iraqi police officers from Mr. Hussein's regime went through a rapid, 21-day program after the war that was little more than an introduction to policing using Western standards of human rights and law-enforcement practices.<br><br>He says another 20,000 trained in Jordan took a two-month course modeled on police training program in Kosovo. In Kosovo, however, the training lasted for five months in addition to four months of field work.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK START--><a href="http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1053587,00.html">www.time.com/time/world/a...87,00.html</a><!--EZCODE AUTOLINK END--><br><br><!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>"Not every officer was pro-Saddam," said Gen. Adnan Thabit, who left Saddam's army and the party in 1984, dismayed over the direction Saddam was taking. Today he commands the Ministry of Interior's Special Forces. From his office decorated with pictures of himself with Jay Garner, the first U.S. Iraq administrator, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>he boasted that two-thirds of his current 12,000-man force were either Iraqi Special Forces or otherwise in the security services.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--> <p></p><i></i>
hmm
 
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