Back-and-to-the-left? Well yeah, but...

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Postby Nordic » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:05 am

erosoplier wrote:(I'm no expert but...) Once a bullet hits something like a skull - a skull has many plates with joining seams, and such - it's not a straighforward matter that the exact opposite side will be ejected. It may end up being the area to one side adjacent is removed. It may not be symmetrical.


Where the bullet emerges is where all the damage will be.

Like I said, the WTC skyscrapers are a good example of this, when the plane flew through them.

Here's a Youtube video which shows, surprisingly (to me) an almost equal amount of damage from the entry as the exit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjUTZH_Vdxs

Here's another.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUSo6ehRCHI&NR=1

Check out the coconut getting hit. It actually shows a far more random pattern of destruction than I would expect. And a coconut is more like a head than the other objects. In hitting animals, however, the rule was always that the little hole was the entry wound, the big hole the exit.
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Postby erosoplier » Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:09 am

Jim Fetzer went on a campaign arguing that the Zapruder film had been altered (e.g. here). Does that itself count as a significant piece of evidence that it wasn't altered?!
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Postby Nordic » Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:17 am

Well, hey, if they could fake the moon landing, they could certainly fake the JFK shooting really easily!!


:P
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Postby psynapz » Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:35 am

WARNING: The following images somehow fail to adequately inform justice.

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Postby xsicbastardx » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:13 am

psynapz wrote:WARNING: The following images somehow fail to adequately inform justice.

Image

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Postby erosoplier » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:23 am

If people can be persuaded that "back and to the left" does or doesn't fit with the video evidence, then that's a matter potentially related to truth, more immediately than justice.

I've only ever seen Stone's JFK movie once, years ago, but being the original source of the now-famous phrase, I'd be interested to see it again to see exactly how it treats the material.

Praise google and youtube, here is the very scene in question.

As I suspected, in his movie, Stone (to my eye) has cut out the fleeting "forward and to the right" movement which precedes the back and to the left movement (as shown in this apparently faithful modified version of the Zapruder film).

How did he manage to do that?

Should I be talking about Garrison, not Stone? Probably. But initially i'm just wondering what others here think.
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Postby operator kos » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:19 pm

The Z film is indeed much like the idea of controlled demolition on 9/11. While there are many experts who could argue from these examples of physical evidence that both were inside jobs, such evidence is always up for debate.

That's why re: JFK, I go to things like E. Howard Hunt's deathbed confession of involvement and re: 9/11 I go to things like the ISI money transfer and other deep political stuff. There are other smoking guns besides video clips.
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Postby Nordic » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:48 pm

erosoplier wrote:If people can be persuaded that "back and to the left" does or doesn't fit with the video evidence, then that's a matter potentially related to truth, more immediately than justice.

I've only ever seen Stone's JFK movie once, years ago, but being the original source of the now-famous phrase, I'd be interested to see it again to see exactly how it treats the material.

Praise google and youtube, here is the very scene in question.

As I suspected, in his movie, Stone (to my eye) has cut out the fleeting "forward and to the right" movement which precedes the back and to the left movement (as shown in this apparently faithful modified version of the Zapruder film).

How did he manage to do that?

Should I be talking about Garrison, not Stone? Probably. But initially i'm just wondering what others here think.



I could swear I remember reading back when JFK was made, that Stone re-staged the Zapruder film, in other words, the "Zapruder film" you see in the movie isn't the real one.

Someone might want to look into that. I don't have time right now.
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Re: Back-and-to-the-left? Well yeah, but...

Postby MinM » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:12 am

erosoplier wrote:Was just watching Bill Hicks talking about JFK. One thing which increasingly bothers me* is the old back-and-to-the-left story, which Hicks propogates in that particular clip. If you slow down, stabilise, and magnify the zapruder film (*warning - disturbing images*), it seems patently obvious that Kennedy was shot from the back and the left, and that his head moved in that direction - back and to the left - only because it was still attached to his body after the bullet hit. It was a rebound movement. His head went forward and to the right first, before it went back and left.

It's obvious, isn't it?

That's certainly what the late Peter Jennings argues (8-minutes in to the video below):
Image
JFKII - The Bush Connection - Complete Documentary

Yet it seems at odds with the account of Assistant Press Secretary Malcolm Kilduff:
Image
YouTube - The Kilduff Announcement

***
YouTube - George Carlin and Bill Hicks tell it like it is

MinM's Journal - Visual Evidence of Conspiracy

rigorousintuition.ca :: View topic - JFK assassination film hoax

Zapruder Film (HOAX?)
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Postby Hugh Manatee Wins » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:44 pm

Blood spatter, flying skull pieces, the autopsy, and the cover-up manipulation of evidence all prove the fatal Z313 shot was from the front.

Why do you think that blood spatter was fictionalized by CIA-Hollywood as 'Dexter?'
Image

1) The motorcycle cop who was behind and to the left of JFK's limo, Billy Hargis, was hit with so much blood and brains that he thought he'd been shot.

2) Jackie Kennedy climbed out on the rear of the limo to retrieve a portion of her husband's skull that had been blown off to the rear, not to reach out to the approaching Secret Service agent as some think. She only reluctantly relinquished her grip on this piece of JFK's skull at the hospital after some coaxing.

3) The people who did the autopsy all remember the back of JFK's head being blown out with little brain left. Yet fake autopsy photos surfaced and the brain remains were replaced with a nearly complete brain that had a gunshot wound in the front.

4) The Warren Commission refused to admit autopsy photos and instead used 'artists' rendition' sketches to sustain the cover-up.

5) James Fetzer exposed himself as a disinformationist when he joined Scholars for 9/11 Truth as a sleeper only to surface later spewing nonsense and driving out Dr. Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan in disgust.
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Postby erosoplier » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:00 am

MinM wrote:
erosoplier wrote:Was just watching Bill Hicks talking about JFK. One thing which increasingly bothers me* is the old back-and-to-the-left story, which Hicks propogates in that particular clip. If you slow down, stabilise, and magnify the zapruder film (*warning - disturbing images*), it seems patently obvious that Kennedy was shot from the back and the left, and that his head moved in that direction - back and to the left - only because it was still attached to his body after the bullet hit. It was a rebound movement. His head went forward and to the right first, before it went back and left.

It's obvious, isn't it?

That's certainly what the late Peter Jennings argues (8-minutes in to the video below):
Image
JFKII - The Bush Connection - Complete Documentary

Yet it seems at odds with the account of Assistant Press Secretary Malcolm Kilduff:
Image
YouTube - The Kilduff Announcement

***
YouTube - George Carlin and Bill Hicks tell it like it is

MinM's Journal - Visual Evidence of Conspiracy

rigorousintuition.ca :: View topic - JFK assassination film hoax

Zapruder Film (HOAX?)


Thanks for dredging all that up, MinM. I nearly drowned in it, but I'm still here!

A few points:

- Fetzer is still, in 2009, pestering people on discussion boards about the JFK assassination? What a toad he is.

- Malcolm Kilduff’s statement is worth zero as far as I’m concerned. If his arms were attached to him back to front, he would have pointed to the back of his head when indicating that Kennedy was shot in the head, and none of the conspiracy theorists would be concerned. But as it happens, his arms were attached to him in the normal fashion...

- I’ve thought about it some more, and I can’t at the end of the day rule out the possibility that the head shot came from the Book Depository (TBD). I was thinking it far more likely that it came from further to JFK’s left – e.g. from the court house building – and still do, but I can’t rule out the TBD. Here is what I wrote yesterday before I came to this conclusion:

I'm not arguing what Peter Jennings was arguing. I don’t think the shot came from the grassy knoll, but I think it’s much more likely that the bullet didn’t come from the Book Depository but instead came from somewhere more to Kennedy’s left, from the rear. I can give a line of reasoning which follows the OP (should we call it the compression/recoil theory?), but finds against the likelihood of a Book Depository kill-shot.

A bullet from the TBD may have been able to do the same damage that we see done to Kennedy's head (i.e. right, mid/rear) in the Z film, but I think it’s very unlikely that it would have thrown his head the way it was thrown in the Z film. A recap, the way I'm seeing it: Kennedy is slumped forward and his neck is pretty much fully extended forward, and when the bullet hits (from the rear) it wants to push his head even further forward, violently, and this is what provides the recoil back-and-to-the-left motion after the initial down-and-to-the-right movement caused by the bullet impact. The down-and-to-the-right-then-back-and-to-the-left motion could be caused by a bullet from directly behind (i.e. from the TBD), but, basically, it probably would have had to take a chunk off of the left side of his head to do it. If shot from directly behind, taking a chunk off of the right side of Kennedy's head, his head would/should have initially been forced down and to the left, and then it would have recoiled back-and-to-the-right. I'm basically relying on Newtonian billiard-ball physics for this - if you want to put a ball in the right hand pocket, you hit it at a point on its left hand side with the cue ball.

What changed my mind was remembering that JFK was slumped forward and leaning to his left somewhat, and I’m still thinking about it, but that seems to make a TBD shot more possible, to my mind. It seems to make it more likely that a shot from straight behind could generate the back-and-to-the-left movement that we see.

- Maybe the film was altered to (among other things) include the hint of compression/recoil, in order to disguise the fact that the shot came from the grassy knoll, and to convince people like me that the shot must have come from behind like the official story maintains it did. But even then, the brain spillage flopping over his right temple looks like an exit wound, not and entrance wound – which points to a rear shot, not a front shot.

- So to me, based on an analysis of this little portion of the Z film, the back-and-to-the-left-grassy-knoll-shooter theory looks like a big wrong-turn dead-end. And the spooks would certainly be quite interested in encouraging it, if it were wrong. Why would Hollywood be allowed to make a movie which contained both a true conspiracy theory, and accurate details about how the conspiracy was carried out? Much more likely is that the people be shown a true conspiracy theory, but the story be mired down in hopelessly incorrect details.

There’s a whole lifetime of research to do re. the JFK assassination, but in this thread the little thread I’m picking up is the not-widely-acknowledged compression/recoil movement. Others may find other stuff is relevant to this, and I’d like to hear about it, but I don’t have a lifetime to devote to this stuff, so I won’t be attempting to address every unexplained mystery to do with the assassination here.
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Postby erosoplier » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:11 am

Thought it might be worth quoting in-full the relevant section from the page I linked to in my previous post:

The Head Snap

Much debate has centered on what the Zapruder film shows, particularly the "backward" head movement supposedly indicative of a shot from the Grassy Knoll, thus ruling out Oswald's "Sniper's Nest" to the President's right rear. For decades, this evidence of a frontal assassin was presented as conclusive to lecture and TV audiences. In 1991, the graphic head explosion served as the startling climax to Oliver Stone's JFK.

To this day, millions remain unaware that such forthright evidence of a second gunman was undermined almost from the beginning. In 1965, researchers using a frame-by-frame comparison discovered the head went violently forward between Zapruder frames 312 (last frame before impact) and frame 313 (head explosion). The subsequent backward motion is much more slower and thus more distinctive in live-action viewing.

Image

The forward head movement, along with the explosion forward of skull and brain material is entirely consistent with a shot from the Sniper's Nest. By frame 313, the Grassy Knoll was perpendicular to the President's head; an impact would have exited through the left side of the skull, but autopsy X-rays and photos show no skull or metal fragments in the left hemisphere, much less a gaping exit wound.

So, why did the head execute such a seemingly massive rearward movement immediately after being pushed forward by the bullet's impact? Simple: it had no place else to go. Frame 312 shows the chin already pressing against the chest (a reaction to the throat wound that Oswald had inflicted five seconds before). The bullet's impact, coming from the rear, drove the head forward until it compressed against the chest, causing an immediate (though less violent) recoil to the rear and left.

I call it the Compression/Recoil Theory. The initial forward movement of the head was confirmed by the Nix film; that the rearward recoil also went left was captured in the Muchmore film and Moorman photo.


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Postby MinM » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:30 pm

ImageImageImageImage
Zapruder, De Mohrenschildt. Oswald, and Bush

As with Oswald's Backyard Photo. I tend to be agnostic about the Zapruder Film. More interesting to me is the apparent connection Abraham Zapruder had to George de Mohrenschildt. John Simkin at the Education Forum has been exploring this angle recently:
In 1953 Abraham Zapruder moved to Dallas and joined with Jeanne LeGon to form the clothing design firm called, Nardis of Dallas. Jeanne LeGon designed the clothing and Abraham Zapruder cut the patterns and the material for her. In 1959 the partnership broke up when Jeanne LeGon married George De Mohrenschildt...

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/amazingwe ... pruder.htm

The following may be of interest to those who would seek a glimpse at the beginning, even though it tends to raise questions about the only piece of evidence that we know is real, intact, unaltered, and 100% without blemish. Qualities that are curiously absent from the character of the one who filmed it...

Consider:

Abraham Zapruder-White Russian affiliation, 32nd degree Mason, active MEMBER of 2 CIA Proprietary Organizations: The Dallas Council On World Affairs and The Crusade For A Free Europe;

These two organizations were CIA (backed) Domestic Operations in Dallas whose membership included:

Abraham Zapruder, Clint Murchison (owner of the Dallas Cowboys at that time) , Mr. Byrd, (owner of the Texas School Book Depository), Sarah Hughes, who swore LBJ in as the 36th President while Air Force One was still on the ground in Dallas, George DeMohrenschildt, (CIA contract agent AND best friend of LHO), George Bush (also close friend of George DeMohrenschildt), Neil Mallon, (mentor that Bush named his son, Neil, after), H.L. Hunt, & Demitri Von Mohrenschildt (George D's brother).

In 1953 and 1954 a woman named, Jeanne LeGon worked SIDE by SIDE with Abraham Zapruder at a high end clothing design firm called, Nardis of Dallas. Jeanne LeGon designed the clothing and Abraham Zapruder cut the patterns and the material for her.

Incidentally, Abraham Zapruder's obituary mis-states the date/year that he departed Nardis of Dallas, incorrectly citing 1949. The correct year was 1959, [the same year that his "partner in design" Jeanne LeGon became known as, Jean LeGon DeMohrenschildt... She had married Lee Oswald's BEST FRIEND (to be), CIA Contract Agent, George DeMohrenschildt!


rigorousintuition.ca :: View topic - Seriously, How Many Damn People Filmed JFK's Death?
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BTW de Mohrenschildt's Nardis of Dallas, one year after the Kennedy Assassination, was commissioned to work on the set of the second most famous lone-nut Marine in the world:
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Postby MinM » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:28 am

Hugh Manatee Wins wrote:Blood spatter, flying skull pieces, the autopsy, and the cover-up manipulation of evidence all prove the fatal Z313 shot was from the front...

1) The motorcycle cop who was behind and to the left of JFK's limo, Billy Hargis, was hit with so much blood and brains that he thought he'd been shot.

2) Jackie Kennedy climbed out on the rear of the limo to retrieve a portion of her husband's skull that had been blown off to the rear, not to reach out to the approaching Secret Service agent as some think. She only reluctantly relinquished her grip on this piece of JFK's skull at the hospital after some coaxing...

Exactly right. Jackie wasn't climbing on the back of the limo to grab her cell phone.
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Postby erosoplier » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:27 am

If it was a front shot, how did the "Harper fragment" find its way to 117' in front of the point of impact?

Here is a useful diagram. Not that I want to give anyone information overload, or anything.

[Edit: Though 117 feet seems likely to be an overestimate]
Last edited by erosoplier on Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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