It is reasonable to accept the existence of an afterlife. .

[slomo]

One thing about this thread, with all the QM.... physics is not actually my field of scientific study, though I took a number of upper-division classes in college. I once had a chat with a biophysicist friend about QM as evidence for a world-beyond-the-veil, and she dismissed it, saying the order of magnitude of quantum indeterminacy would easily be swamped by thermodynamic noise. So there is that perspective.

The only way for QM to have relevance to consciousness in the everyday macro world would be if there was some way that quantum indeterminacy could be magnified on a regular basis. Obviously it can be magnified, experimentally, or else we would never know about it, but are there natural mechanisms?

There is a physicist by the name of Walker who wrote a book, The Physics of Consciousness. I think he may be somewhat discredited as a physicist (you always are, if you engage in too much woo - something that keeps me as anonymous as possible on the internets). But he did, apparently, publish some papers where he worked out the geometry of neural synapses and concluded that they are consistent with the idea that synaptic firings might be controlled by quantum tunneling by electrons, and moreover a number of the dimensions and quantities related to neurophysical processing are explained by/consistent with this hypothesis. In other words, synapses are a kind of transformer that magnifies quantum indeterminacy to the level of macro-world biological systems. If there would be an interface between the ghost and the machine, this is where it would lie.

[Alaya]

"This basic ground does not depend on relative situations at all. It is natural being which just is. Energies appear out of this basic ground and those energies are the source of the development of relative situations. Sparks of duality, intensity and sharpness, flashes of wisdom and knowledge—all sorts of things come out of the basic ground. So the basic ground is the source of confusion and also the source of liberation. . . . As for ego's type of ground, the eighth consciousness, this arises when the energy which flashes out of the basic ground brings about a sort of blinding effect, bewilderment. That bewilderment becomes the eighth consciousness, the basic ground for ego."

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche

[justdrew]

But that 2007 Nature paper kind of kills Bohm.

http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.2529

but I'm not sure that paper relates to Bohmian mechanics. I can't find anyone to say so at the moment, but since Bohmian mechanics gives the same predictions for this type of experiment as Copenhagen I don't think De Broglie–Bohm theory is in the class of theories excluded by that paper's interpretation of their results.

It is the positions of the particles in Bohmian mechanics that are its "hidden variables," an unfortunate bit of terminology. As Bell (1987, page 201) has written, referring to Bohmian mechanics and similar theories,

Absurdly, such theories are known as ‘hidden variable’ theories. Absurdly, for there it is not in the wavefunction that one finds an image of the visible world, and the results of experiments, but in the complementary ‘hidden’(!) variables. Of course the extra variables are not confined to the visible ‘macroscopic’ scale. For no sharp definition of such a scale could be made. The ‘microscopic’ aspect of the complementary variables is indeed hidden from us. But to admit things not visible to the gross creatures that we are is, in my opinion, to show a decent humility, and not just a lamentable addiction to metaphysics. In any case, the most hidden of all variables, in the pilot wave picture, is the wavefunction, which manifests itself to us only by its influence on the complementary variables.

Naive Realism about Operators

[Simulist]

...Bhomian mechanics...

I'm not sure why, but at first I read that as "'Bohemian' mechanics." And then of course this picture came to mind:

HippieBus.jpg

Sorry for the interruption.

[justdrew]

There is a physicist by the name of Walker who wrote a book, The Physics of Consciousness. I think he may be somewhat discredited as a physicist (you always are, if you engage in too much woo - something that keeps me as anonymous as possible on the internets). But he did, apparently, publish some papers where he worked out the geometry of neural synapses and concluded that they are consistent with the idea that synaptic firings might be controlled by quantum tunneling by electrons, and moreover a number of the dimensions and quantities related to neurophysical processing are explained by/consistent with this hypothesis. In other words, synapses are a kind of transformer that magnifies quantum indeterminacy to the level of macro-world biological systems. If there would be an interface between the ghost and the machine, this is where it would lie.

yeah, I think that's at least one way the "nudges" I was talking about happen

I just found some interesting recent discoveries about animals detecting of naturally produced entangled pairs (produced in the corona of the sun and other stars for instance). This is one theory for how some animals (cows salmon maybe bats, etc) magnetic scenes work iirc.

here would be an interesting question: can you tell if a particle is entangled? Only given one particle, with no access to a possibly existent pair-partner. I don't think so

...Bhomian mechanics...

I'm not sure why, but at first I read that as "'Bohemian' mechanics."

whoops, I misspelled his name (corrected above).

as long as no one records a version of Bohmian Rhapsody (maybe mc hawking could?)

[Simulist]

Drew, I actually thought you'd spelled it right. I was just making a joke.

[23]

The joke may be... that I am this, not that... or only a separate entity.

When the reality may be... that I am this and that... this and that.

[Simulist]

The joke is... I am this, not that... or only a separate entity.

When the reality may be... that I am this and that... this and that.

I absolutely 100% agree. (The joke seems always to be on the "separatists," doesn't it? Whatever the context.)

Also, the "I am this and that" reality of the situation can make it difficult for the seeker to live with him/herself for a time upon discovering that truth. I've found that this is at least a part of the distressing "trouble" the Nag Hammadi's Thomas warns its seekers to expect, once they find. Fortunately, the discovery is worth all the temporary "trouble."

(By the way, Alaya, I liked your YouTube video on "Consciousness" so much I downloaded it. Thank you!)



EDIT: Corrected attribution of a posted video.

[justdrew]

since I've gotten into defending de Broglie-Bohm theory, allow me to point to one of the champions in the field, Cambridge's Dr. Towler who's soon putting on a conference on the subject...

21st-century directions in de Broglie-Bohm theory and beyond
A quantum foundations discussion workshop on the de Broglie-Bohm formulation of quantum mechanics and related topics is to take place in late August/early September 2010 at the Apuan Alps Centre for Physics, a 15th-century Tuscan former monastery in the mountains near the beautiful Italian city of Lucca. It is hoped that the meeting will be of great interest to anyone stimulated by the work of physicists Louis de Broglie and David Bohm, and by the directions their ideas have followed through the work of many people over more than eighty years. The meeting is being organized by Cambridge University physicist Dr. Mike Towler, who
owns and runs the monastery, and Prof. Antony Valentini of Imperial College, London and Clemson University in South Carolina. In its six years of operation, the monastery has become well-known as a unique communal venue where the community spirit and magnificent location have inspired a series of memorable meetings; we very much hope this workshop will continue this tradition.
...
De Broglie-Bohm theory is a 'hidden variables' formulation of quantum mechanics initially developed by de Broglie from 1923-1927 and clarified and extended by Bohm beginning in 1952. In non-relativistic quantum theory it differs from the orthodox viewpoint in that the notion of 'probability'
refers to the probability that a particle *is* at some position, rather than to its probability of being found there in a suitable measurement. From this seemingly subtle difference it is easy to show that - contrary to popular belief - QM can be interpreted as a dynamical theory of particle trajectories rather than as a statistical theory of observation. In such a formalism the standard paradoxes related to measurement, observation and wave function collapse (Schroedinger's cat, and so on) largely evaporate. The classical limit does not have to be presupposed and emerges from the theory in a relatively clear way. All the 'talk' is replaced by sharply-defined mathematics, it becomes possible to 'visualize' the reality of most quantum events, and - most importantly - the theory is completely consistent with the full range of QM predictive-observational data. While some believe the study of interpretational questions to be mere semantics or 'just philosophy', it is often forgotten that the location of the boundary between philosophy and physics is unknown, and that one's philosophical perspective can guide mathematical developments. For many people it is clear that de Broglie-Bohm theory should be studied, not only because it is beginning to make apparently testable predictions, but also because it has the
potential to suggest possible directions towards the next generation of ideas in theoretical physics.

and if you click through and look at the list of invited attendees, I have to up my assessment of one name we all knows bona fides... Jack Sarfatti

[justdrew]

so, setting Bohm and quantum stuff aside... does this make sense to anyone? agree or disagree? Is it clear why I put the link to tubers? (aka a cosmic potato model of the extended self )

... or ... is there dream after awakening?

there's a biologically known reason why it's generally difficult for us to remember most dreams, but I think it's reasonable to assume the "Buddhic self" (using that term/concept as it's fine and been introduced already) has no such limitation. So everything the dreamer became in the dream is remembered and influences the unfolding of the dreamer. remembered perfectly, and the dreamer may dream from that memory again, carrying on the narrative, adding to the memory, growing it further. The nature of the dreamer's memories are not different from the nature of the dreamer itself. and even dreams may dream.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuber

[Simulist]

It makes perfect sense to me, Drew, especially something you wrote on the first page:

So everything the dreamer became in the dream is remembered and influences the unfolding of the dreamer. remembered perfectly, and the dreamer may dream from that memory again, carrying on the narrative, adding to the memory, growing it further. The nature of the dreamer's memories are not different from the nature of the dreamer itself. and even dreams may dream.

We are safe in the mind of God.

So is everyone we've ever known — now or in the future, and in the basement of time.

[Joe Hillshoist]

The parting words of her father, speaking through the medium: "tell that husband of yours to get a haircut, he looks like a girl!".

It is sobering to consider that the afterlife might be a place where you care deeply about your daughter's husband's hairstyle.

That was my friend's reaction. She had not had a particularly easy relationship with her father, and was somewhat disappointed that he hadn't learned much on the journey across.

Obviously it wasn't her father (unless he was joking). OK maybe it was...

I think the big trouble with thinking about an afterlife is that you forget about this one.

[Occult Means Hidden]

The classic tunnel of light I always considered interesting. The religious herding into the tunnel. Step on through to the other side and such.

I don't know, it doesn't seem right. What happens if you don't step into the light? You are destined to roam the Earth as a lone and forever unsatisfied ghost? Purgatory?

This scene from 'Finding Nemo', of all movies, I think is an important message. From 38 seconds to 122 seconds on this clip.

"I'm feeling happy. Which is a big deal... for me."



Oftentimes the light is described as beautiful and calming. There is a sense that everything is going to be ok. Until you meet the teeth of your redeemer.

from Revelation: 19:17-18

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

It's probably no coincidence that these fish are called angler fish.

[geogeo]

It may just be that, without the possibility of putting what we call a 'thought under a microscope slide, we exist in some sort of grandiose matrix of illusions. My reading of Bergson, Deleuze, Boehme, Heidegger, Derrida, Foucault and a number of others leads me to suspect that:

--we haven't a clue what it means to be; ontology remains unsettled
--language is a wholly inadequate system to glue to what we call Reality, some reified flux itself
--the concept of the image, what a concept!
--mathematics and the entire issue of discrete packets and Stasis, rules and laws and variables, is bound up in historical-social-patriarchal-etc. lineages, but we enable ourselves to forget about this, and belittle it, some of us, because otherwise it makes non-sense of our professional endeavors, not to mention our egos
--we're about as good at this as ants are at figuring out the purpose behind anything
--which is why little what are they, Zen koans, are vastly 'superior', if you must, to the Western mode of dissection and control of reality.
--But you don't have to understand it (whatever that means) to control it

--oh yeah, i forgot time. That's a mystery as well.

--We're SO enamored of The Particles and The Waves. We're still staring at those shadows

--but hey

[norton ash]

Commencement Address at Kenyon University
By David Foster Wallace

There are these two young fish swimming along and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says "Morning, boys. How's the water?" And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes "What the hell is water?"

DFW leading with a joke.