Marc Levin on the "celebrating Israelis" and consp

by **eric144** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:49 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Mossad as the 9/11 perps is like the Mafia as the JFK perps<hr></blockquote> No, they were the primary beneficiaries in Afghanistan and Iraq in particylar.

by **FourthBase** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:10 am

Primary? There've been other beneficiaries. Who benefits? Yes, great question. But also, who can pull it off? And also, who can cover it up? 9/11 was not singularly pulled off or covered up by the Mossad. Just like the JFK assassination wasn't singularly pulled off or covered up by the Mob. There may have been some Mossad/Mob involvement in each. But that must not be mistaken for primary responsibility. You can't seriously think that the Mossad is more powerful than our military or our intelligence agencies, or more evil.

by **eric144** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:18 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>You can't seriously think that the Mossad is more powerful than our military or our intelligence agencies, or more evil. <hr></blockquote> More competent, motivated and ruthless.

by **FourthBase** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:43 am

Ehhh...maybe, maybe not. I think the elite of our bad guys are just as motivated and ruthless. And I think our toys are better than theirs, contrary to popular belief.

by **Iroquois** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:44 am

Mossad is a ruthless organization in part because that's one of the things that makes them valuable to the US. They're their to do the WH's dirty work and, if needed, take the fall if things go south. But, if a group of Mossad agents were to unilaterally attack or support a foreign attack on the US or a major US interest, there would be broad and decisive retribution. If 9/11 had been a Mossad operation for example, Sharon's administration would have come to a sudden, and likely violent for several key members, end.

by **eric144** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:49 am

It was a joint operation, no question, both countries (and Britain) wanted to invade Iraq, I just think the 5 Israelis and the Hebrew speaking Atta point to the Mossad. I think these peple are dedicated beyond even the dumbest/craziest North/Liddy type American.

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:05 am

I think it's a mistake to draw hard distinctions of nation-states around elite intelligence organizations, particularly with respect to their criminal aspects. They have been networked for generations.

by **Dreams End** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:40 am

Thought I'd reprint the article in question linked by Jeff. Seeing as how it is a Yiddish language publication, I think we can rule out anti-Semitic agendas here. Of course some will rule it out as a legit. source for the sam e reason. Anyway, surprise appearance by a little known "expert on American military intelligence operations" at the end. And a final question about the "mall spies." What, exactly, would they be spying on? Just curious. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Spy Rumors Fly on Gusts of Truth Americans Probing Reports of Israeli Espionage By MARC PERELMAN FORWARD STAFF Despite angry denials by Israel and its American supporters, reports that Israel was conducting spying activities in the United States may have a grain of truth, the Forward has learned. However, far from pointing to Israeli spying against U.S. government and military facilities, as reported in Europe last week, the incidents in question appear to represent a case of Israelis in the United States spying on a common enemy, radical Islamic networks suspected of links to Middle East terrorism. In particular, a group of five Israelis arrested in New Jersey shortly after the September 11 attacks and held for more than two months was subjected to an unusual number of polygraph tests and interrogated by a series of government agencies including the FBI's counterintelligence division, which by some reports remains convinced that Israel was conducting an intelligence operation. The five Israelis worked for a moving company with few discernable assets that closed up shop immediately afterward and whose owner fled to Israel. Other allegations involved Israelis claiming to be art students who had backgrounds in signal interception and ordnance. (See related story, Page 8.) Sources emphasized that the release of all the Israelis under investigation indicates that they were cleared of any suspicion that they had prior knowledge of the September 11 attacks, as some anti-Israel media outlets have suggested. The resulting tensions between Washington and Jerusalem, sources told the Forward, arose not because of the operations' targets but because Israel reportedly violated a secret gentlemen's agreement between the two countries under which espionage on each other's soil is to be coordinated in advance. Most experts and former officials interviewed for this article said that such so-called unilateral or uncoordinated Israeli monitoring of radical Muslims in America would not be surprising. In fact, they said, Israeli intelligence played a key role in helping the Bush administration to crack down on Islamic charities suspected of funneling money to terrorist groups, most notably the Richardson, Texas-based Holy Land Foundation last December. "I have no doubt Israel has an interest in spying on those groups," said Peter Unsinger, an intelligence expert who teaches justice administration at San Jose University. "The Israelis give us good stuff, like on the Hamas charities." According to one former high-ranking American intelligence official, who asked not to be named, the FBI came to the conclusion at the end of its investigation that the five Israelis arrested in New Jersey last September were conducting a Mossad surveillance mission and that their employer, Urban Moving Systems of Weehawken, N.J., served as a front. After their arrest, the men were held in detention for two-and-a-half months and were deported at the end of November, officially for visa violations. However, a counterintelligence investigation by the FBI concluded that at least two of them were in fact Mossad operatives, according to the former American official, who said he was regularly briefed on the investigation by two separate law enforcement officials. "The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it," he said. "The conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs but that they could leave because they did not know anything about 9/11." However, he added, the bureau was "very irritated because it was a case of so-called unilateral espionage, meaning they didn't know about it." Spokesmen for the FBI, the Justice Department and the Immigration and Naturalization Service refused to discuss the case. Israeli officials flatly dismissed the allegations as untrue. However, the former American official said that after American authorities confronted Jerusalem on the issue at the end of last year, the Israeli government acknowledged the operation and apologized for not coordinating it with Washington. The five men — Sivan and Paul Kurzberg, Oded Ellner, Omer Marmari and Yaron Shmuel — were arrested eight hours after the attacks by the Bergen County, N.J., police while driving in an Urban Moving Systems van. The police acted on an FBI alert after the men allegedly were seen acting strangely while watching the events from the roof of their warehouse and the roof of their van. In addition to their strange behavior and their Middle Eastern looks, the suspicions were compounded when a box cutter and $4,000 in cash were found in the van. Moreover, one man carried two passports and another had fresh pictures of the men standing with the smoldering wreckage of the World Trade Center in the background. The Bergen County police immediately handed the suspects to the INS, which turned them over to a joint police-FBI terrorism task force set up after September 11 to deal with all possible links with the attacks. The five Israelis were detained in the high-security Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn in solitary confinement until mid-October. On September 25, they all signed papers acknowledging violations of U (the text is garbled at this point and, in fact, copying and selecting all of it only got me this far. Nothing insidious. A look at the source code shows a broken tag in the html. Continuing...) month later after a review by the Justice Department and prodding by Jewish and Israeli officials. However, the former official said, this is just the official story. In fact, he said, the nature of the investigation changed after the names of two of the five Israelis showed up on a CIA-FBI database of foreign intelligence operatives, he said. At that point, he said, the bureau took control of the investigation and launched a Foreign Counterintelligence Investigation, or FCI. FBI investigations into possible links to the September 11 attacks are usually carried by the bureau's counterterrorism division, not its counterintelligence division. "An FCI means not only that it was serious but also that it was handled at a very high level and very tightly," the former official said. That view was echoed by several former FBI officials interviewed. Steven Gordon, an American lawyer hired by the families to help secure their release, said he could not confirm which FBI division was in charge of the investigation. However, he acknowledged that "there were a lot of people involved, including counterintelligence officials from the FBI." The men all underwent at least two polygraph tests each, the lawyer added. He said one of the Israelis took the test seven times, a very unusual total according to several polygraph experts interviewed by the Forward. After the men were arrested, FBI agents searched the warehouse of Urban Moving Systems in Weehawken, N.J., seizing computer hard drives and documents. The warehouse was closed on September 14, said Ron George, a spokesman for the New Jersey State Division of Consumer Affairs. On December 7, a New Jersey judge ruled that the state could seize the goods remaining inside the warehouse. The state also has a lawsuit pending against Urban Moving Systems and its owner, Dominik Otto Suter, an Israeli citizen. The FBI questioned Mr. Suter once. However, he left the country afterward and went back to Israel before further questioning. Mr. Suter declined through his lawyer to be interviewed for this article. Earlier this year, the New York State Department of Transportation revoked Urban Moving System's license after discovering that the company's midtown Manhattan base was only a mailing address. After they returned to Israel at the end of November, the five men told local media that they were kept in solitary confinement, beaten, deprived of food and questioned while blindfolded and in their underwear. Mr. Ellner, one of the five Israelis, said on two occasions in recent weeks that the five men had decided not to grant any interviews right now "because we went through a very difficult period and we are not ready for this." Their Israeli lawyer, Ram Horwitz, told the Forward he was still waiting for the results of the medical tests undertaken by the men in Israel to make a decision on an eventual lawsuit in the United States for mistreatment. Mr. Horwitz insisted the men were not intelligence officers. Irit Stoffer, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, said the allegations were "completely untrue" and that there were "only visa violations." "The FBI investigated those cases because of 9/11," Ms. Stoffer said. Charlene Eban, a spokeswoman for the FBI in Washington, and Don Nelson, a Justice Department spokesman, said they had no knowledge of an Israeli spying operation. "If we found evidence of unauthorized intelligence operations, that would be classified material," added Jim Margolin, a spokesman for the FBI in New York. One leading expert in American intelligence operations, Chip Berlet, a senior analyst at the Boston-based Political Research Associates, explained that there "is a backdoor agreement between allies that says that if one of your spies gets caught and didn't do too much harm, he goes home. It goes on all the time. The official reason is always a visa violation." <hr></blockquote> I thought I'd read that officially, Israel had warned the US of this impending attack. I don't know the reliability of those reports. However, no one is blinded enough by anti-Semitic preconceptions, even here, to assume the US would allow Israel to carry out such a plan AGAINST the will of the US government. If Israel was involved it was, by definition, part of the plan. Unless there are still people who want to argue that Israel is so powerful that the US is simply too weak to oppose them? I doubt even Eric "I won't vote for Jews" 144 won't take that line. His latest, just so we are clear about his perspective here: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have never voted but I certainly wouldn't vote for a Jewish prime minister any more than I would vote for a French one (in the current global political situation).<hr></blockquote> he'll toss in other nationalities too, just to buy some cover: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Swiss are up there with the Jews for being a centre of global financial manipulation.<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>There is a body of opinion that it's the Jews in the USA that are runuing American foreign policy through American traitors like Cheney and Rumsfeld, not the Jews who are being used.<hr></blockquote> All from this thread: <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm10.showMessageRange?topicID=1913.topic&start=1&stop=20">p216.ezboard.com/frigorou...=1&stop=20</a> You know, Eric, there's also a "body of opinion" that you are <self-censored so as not to get someone else's thread sent to the firepit. Witty completions of this sentence are welcome there.>

by **FourthBase** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:03 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>What, exactly, would they be spying on?<hr></blockquote> Well, the mall I saw them at in 2000 also had an Air Force recruiting center...but maybe that's not unusual at a Simon mall. I would guess that the mall jobs are just cover, and that their efforts are directed toward nearby military bases, DEA offices, etc. By the way, I wonder if all the malls they worked at were Simon malls.

by **michael miering** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:15 am

Well, well, well. EVIDENCE LINKING THE 5 HIGH FIVING, PARTYING WHILE FILMING THE TOWERS COLLAPSE TO SEPT11 IS NOW CLASSIFIED. I bet its fucking classified.

by **hmm** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:10 am

when discussing this its handy to have a impeccable source. <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=75266&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y">www.haaretzdaily.com/hase...&listSrc=Y</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr> 5 Israelis detained for `puzzling behavior' after WTC tragedy By Yossi Melman Five Israelis who had worked for a moving company based in New Jersey are being held in U.S. prisons for what the Federal Bureau of Investigation has described as "puzzling behavior" following the terror attack on the World Trade Center in New York last Tuesday. The five are expected to be deported sometime soon.<hr></blockquote> this can be posted anywhere,in contrast to whatreallyhappened.com

by **eric144** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:22 am

You know, Eric, there's also a "body of opinion" that you are <self-censored so as not to get someone else's thread sent to the firepit. Witty completions of this sentence are welcome there.> How about, nowhere near as breathtakingly slimy as you. Is that witty enough ? I don't care as long as no creeps know where I live. Neil McKay, a local journalist here in Scotland who publicised the 5 Israeli story worldwide was threatened with a lawsuit by the Israeli government. They said he was a conspiracy theorist and implied he was a <enter slimy smear here>. It was only a tactic to discredit him, nothing happened. McKay was awarded runner up British journalist of the year 2003 by his fellow journalists. They obviously know slime tactics when they see them. Thanks for the Forward article, good to get an unbiased slant on this. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=eric144>eric144</A> at: 11/14/05 7:26 am

by **Qutb** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:56 am

I don't think Mossad were "subcontractors". I think that's misunderstanding the nature of the Mossad. They're distrusted by everyone, not least by the CIA, and it's not their style to take part in an American operation in a "subcontractor" role. US intel has plenty of subservient client services that they get to do their dirty work, such as Pakistani, Egyptian, Moroccan, Albanian etc. intel agencies. Mossad is different. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Israeli special forces veteran was on that plane, and I don't think he had planned to die that day. I think these Israelis were conducting a Mossad operation separate from the "9/11 op", collecting intelligence on it. Israelis were also arrested with a camera at the Sears Tower, in Chicago, so that tells me they didn't know exactly which tall buildings would get hit. They could also have been monitoring tall buildings for a long time, for all we know. The fact that they were there on 9/11 doesn't mean they knew the date. If they were celebrating, they probably thought it would be good news for the Mossad's plans of a Greater Israel. In which case they must be disappointed now. I've always found it interesting that Keller said Atta spoke Hebrew, but there are no data points that connect Atta to Israel or Israeli intel. On the contrary, both Mohammed and his father are/were members of the Muslim Brotherhood, and Atta's most interesting connections are to "elite" Germans ("sons and daughters of German industrialists") who came to visit him in Florida several times.

by **eric144** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:05 am

Qutb Do you have a degree in sophistry ?

by **proldic** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:41 am

In April 2001, large numbers of Israeli "spies" are deported from the US after identifying two of the hijackers. Israeli counter-terrorism investigators, posing as students, followed the trail of the hijackers to Hollywood, Florida. In April, they are "discovered" and deported after identifying Mohammed Atta and Marwan Alshehhi to US officials. [Der Spiegel 10/01/02] Between August 8-15, 2001, two high-ranking Mossad agents traveled to Washington and went from office to office warning numerous FBI & CIA officials that 50-200 terrorists had entered the US and were planning a 'major assault' on a 'large scale target'... [Daily Telegraph 9/16/01, LA Times 9/20/01, Ottawa Citizen 9/17/01] Israel Warned of Major Assault on USA In August [Fox 5/17/02] On August 23rd, Mossad gave the CIA a list of the names of 19 terrorists living in the US who they said were planning to carry out a major attack. The CIA refused to release the list, and it is unknown if the number is a coincidence. However, according to Die Zeit (10/01/02), Der Spiegel (10/1/02), BBC (10/02/02), and Ha'aretz (10/03/02), four of the names on the list were: Nawaf Alhanzi, Khalid Almihdhar, Marwan Alshehhi, and Mohamed Atta. The Mossad claims to have learned of this through its "art student spy ring". Yet apparently, this warning and the list are not treated urgently by the CIA, and the names on the list are not passed on. [Der Spiegel 10/1/02] On the morning of September 4th, Mossad gave another warning of major immenent attack. US intelligence claims this never happened. [Sunday Mail 9/16/01]

Marc Levin on the "celebrating Israelis" and consp

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