Controlled demolition: disinfo?

by **Iroquois** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:57 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>John A. Jonas, battalion chief, NYC Fire Department, says: "We're looking at this, and we see smoke issuing under pressure, for at least the top 20 floors, maybe more (...) you're looking at 20 acres of fire".<hr></blockquote> Here's another quote from Jonas with enough context to know exactly what he's describing: an assessment made from street level of the fire in tower 1 shortly after it was struck by what official records state was American Airlines flight 11. The complete transcript can be found here: <a href="http://www.recordonline.com/adayinseptember/jonas.htm">www.recordonline.com/aday.../jonas.htm</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>We get on the apparatus, and we start pulling out the doorway, heading west on Canal Street. As we climb up on Canal Street over by the Manhattan Bridge, we get a panoramic view of Lower Manhattan. What I could see was indescribable. The pictures that I have seen and the videos that I have seen, while they've been very vivid in their images, dont come close to capturing how horrible of a sight this really was. There were large gaping holes in the upper floors of the north tower of the World Trade Center, No. 1 World Trade Center. There was smoke pushing out of every crevice on the upper floors. I'm looking at this scene and I'm thinking, "We have 20 floors of fire".<hr></blockquote> What follows is a transcript from a communication with firefighters who were on the 78th floor of tower 2, the floor at the base of the impact hole made by what was reportedly United Airlines flight 175. Despite the fact that there is no mention of a serious fire, and remember this fire must be severe enough to lead not only the failure of trusses but the disintigration of the massive steel support colums, the tower fell about 7 minutes later. The complete audio clip and transcripts of other excerpts are available here: <a href="http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/firefighter-tape.htm">www.thememoryhole.org/911...r-tape.htm</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>9:52 a.m. Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven to Battalion Seven Alpha." "Freddie, come on over. Freddie, come on over by us." Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones." Ladder 15: "What stair are you in, Orio?" Battalion Seven Aide: "Seven Alpha to lobby command post." Ladder Fifteen: "Fifteen to Battalion Seven." Battalion Seven Chief: "... Ladder 15." Ladder 15: "Chief, what stair you in?" Battalion Seven Chief: "South stairway Adam, South Tower." Ladder 15: "Floor 78?" Battalion Seven Chief: "Ten-four, numerous civilians, we gonna need two engines up here." Ladder 15: "Alright ten-four, we're on our way." <hr></blockquote>

by **somebody** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:00 pm

Gawd, what an ass, in my humble opinion of course: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>By the way, as, indeed, a first-timer, you ought to be a little more humble. At least you should register first, before you start flinging accusations at the regular posters here. And didn't your mama teach you that it's impolite to talk about people in the third person when they're present?<hr></blockquote>

by **Qutb** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:09 pm

I think it should be obvious to anyone that there were more than just isolated pockets of fire in the WTC. Have you seen the satellite photos, of the smoke? Where there's smoke, there's fire... 7 minutes before the collapse, much of the fire may have died out for lack of combustible materials, but that doesn't mean the heat + the destruction didn't cause the collapse. Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **Iroquois** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:40 pm

I think it should be obvious to anyone that highly structured events like the freefall collapse high rise buildings, two of them exceptionally tall, into their own footprints do not have chaotic causes, like uncontrolled fires. Smoke is an indication of incomplete combustion. It means that the fire is not getting enough oxygen to burn its fuel efficiently. That is not the kind of fire you need to explain the disintigration of hundreds of thousands of tons of steel structure, especially considering the relativlely small amount and low quality of the available fuel. Remember, this is an open-air fire, not a forge. The heat transfer will also be ineffecient. Not to mention, the many tens of thousands of tons of steel not in the area of the fire would act as a massive heat sink. "7 minutes before the collapse, much of the fire may have died out for lack of combustible materials, but that doesn't mean the heat + the destruction didn't cause the collapse." Yes, it does. If the steel in that area had been heated since the crash of the plane at 9:03AM to temperatures sufficient to deform the structure in some way to eventually lead to instantaneous collapse of the whole building (which is yet another ludicrous aspect of this theory), even if the fires that produced the heat were gone, the environment would have been way too hot for humans to enter. Also, there would have been no way for those in the floors above the crash site to travel through that area, as many did, on their way out of the building. Maybe at this point, instead of shooting more zingers from the hip, you should step back and do what the NIST failed to do: put together a complete explanation for how the official version of the events of 9/11 led to the collapse of all three buildings without ignoring the physical and professional testimonial evidence available in the public domain. Then we can have an intelligent debate on the subject.

by **Qutb** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:16 pm

"Maybe at this point, instead of shooting more zingers from the hip, you should step back and do what the NIST failed to do: put together a complete explanation for how the official version of the events of 9/11 led to the collapse of all three buildings without ignoring the physical and professional testimonial evidence available in the public domain. Then we can have an intelligent debate on the subject." If you had actually read my previous posts, you should know by now that I'm not a structural engineer. Are you? Since I'm not, all I can do is judge the arguments put forward by others from a common sense-perspective, giving more weight to those put forward by people who know what they're talking about. I'm obviously not competent to put together any kind of complete explanation. By the way, I'm still waiting for a CDer to put forward a complete explanation of how the towers were rigged with explosives, how many charges and how much explosives would be needed, what kind of explosives, where they would be placed, how much time an operation like that would take. Not to mention what evidence there is of there actually having been any explosives. For surely there must be some proof of this intriguing but extraordinary theory? It couldn't be that this emperor, whose apparel you so admire, could in fact be butt naked? Because frankly, all I've seen so far are variations over a few pseudo-arguments about how the "official story" (meaning any explanation that doesn't involve explosives) is "impossible", and thus explosives must have brought down the towers, and by the way there was a puff of smoke somewhere, so that proves it. Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by * » Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:04 am

Outside of controlled demolition, the only buildings that have ever "pancaked" have been poured concrete and then, only during construction. The columns are usually left standing. This has never happened in an occupied building. The term was coined to describe the phenomenon in lift-slab construction where it was/is a common enough occurrence to merit the honor. The most infamous example of pancaking is <a href="http://www.eng.uab.edu/cee/reu_nsf99/ambiance.htm#collapse"> L'Ambiance Plaza</a> where the complete collapse took TWICE as long as free-fall. To accept the pancake theory for the WTC collapse, you have to assume complete (and simultaneous) failure of ALL the truss connectors both at the perimeter walls and at the core. There is no other way to explain the symmetrical collapse of the building into its footprint. Not only do I find that to be a much more unrealistic scenario than CD, it doesnâ€™t account for the destruction of the massive core itself. <img src="http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/wtc1_core.jpg" style="border:0;"/> I had never read the â€œofficialâ€

by **Iroquois** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:42 am

For all four corners of a building to freefall simultaneously into its own footprint requires every support element to be completely compromised with precision timing. If there is a method other than explosives to accomplish this, fine. The point is that it is a highly structured event, and logic dictates that such an event has an similarily structured cause. To say that it is the result of something as chaotic as an uncontrolled fire, to me is like saying a group of crop circles can be created by natural phenomenon such as small tornados. In my opinion, the burdon of proof in that case is on those making such a claim, even if it agrees with the official explanation and is backed by teams of experts. I did read at least some of your posts, Qtub, enough to know that you are not a structural engineer. I am not either, and I don't feel I'm asking you to be one. I just asking that you think through the entire official case, assemble all of those little bits that seem to make sense on their own and see if the whole still makes sense fully assembled. I'm not talking about highly specific analysis based on even slightly esoteric information like the precise temperature needed to deform a structural steel element. But if you feel you need it, that sort of information is available. www.911research.com's home page may be a good start. It has links to the official version and a well compiled set of arguments against it. Still, I can understand many reasons why you would want an expert opinion on this. My recommendation is for you to pursue one. Since another <a href="http://www.wanttoknow.info/911kevinrryanfired">Kevin Ryan</a> seems unlikely, you'll probably have to find someone willing to talk to you in confidence. Show him or her the information, especially the videos, on www.wtc7.net -- that seems to many to make the most obvious case for CD -- and see what their conclusion is.

by **maggrwaggr** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 2:35 am

Okay, Qutb, you're saying that the steel that was inspected at the bottom of the heap of debris was, lo-and-behold, missing its fireproofing. Gosh, what a surprise. Seeing as how those steel beams had blown out the side of the building by a force strong enough to blow them out the side of said building, then they fell for ... how many feet? Then they hit the ground, then they were covered with other debris dropping at near terminal-velocity, then they sat there and smoldered for ... how long? And everyone's assuming the fireproofing came off BEFORE all of this happened? Good God. I'm really amazed that people who claim to think logically can be so completely, stupidly, illogical. That's almost as bad as the "body shaving" news about the hijackers, that some of them shaved their bodies and some of them didn't. There's no fucking way anybody knows anything about the bodies of the hijackers. They were obliterated. Duh!

by **Qutb** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 12:38 pm

Dreams End wrote, above: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Watchful Citizen a week or so ago linked to this Donovan paper on "morale operations". It's an image and not a text file so I can't cut and paste. One tactic mentioned...and refined in the 60 years since the paper was written... is to set up a fake radio station (now I'd say website) and put out information that supports the enemy but then take positions SO extreme that the enemy's entire position is discredited. Sound familiar? I think theories that no planes hit the world trade center (not even talking about Penatagon) but that they were "holograms" would be a fine example. Add this method to intentional red herrings and well, it gets very muddy.<hr></blockquote> I would add controlled demolition to that list. And while no one believes in holograms, CD is really catching on, so it's working. Check out <a href="http://www.physics911.net/spine.htm" target="top">SPINE</a>, "the scientific panel investgating 9/11", thanks to 1 Tal for the link. Somehow, I'm reminded of the Disclosure Project here... this has all the characteristics of "morale operations" I think. I notice that there is a Naval Intel guy on the panel, a retired Air Force colonel, and David Shayler, the former MI5 agent. The others are either "activists" or parade fancy-sounding PhDs. This is their statement: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> "We have found solid scientific grounds on which to question the interpretation put upon the events of September 11, 2001 by the Office of the President of the United States of America and subsequently propagated by the major media of western nations. Our analysis of the detailed evidence implies a staged attack employing a variety of deceptive arrangements. Indeed, every element of the September 11 attacks, including cellphone calls from fast-moving aircraft, has an alternate means of creation."<hr></blockquote> So, you understand, nothing is like you've been told. It's all a lie. Now go spread the word... SPINE are the people behind the Physics911 site. Notice how what they write here carefully worded to equate alternative analysis with CD and non-CD explanations of the collapses with Bush/Cheney. From their <a href="http://www.physics911.net/media.htm" target="top">"to the media visitor"</a>: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>In these pages we have tried to lay out as plainly as possible the principal anomalies and contradictions between the facts on the ground and the claim by the Bush White House that these facts imply a terrorist attack upon the United States of America by Arab/Muslim terrorists on September 11, 2001. The evidence, as developed by us and hundreds of other groups and individuals simply does not support this interpretation. We have found it to be a general principle that the closer one looks at the facts of 9/11, the less certain one becomes that the Bush/Cheney interpretation is true. Take, for example the collapse of the World Trade Center twin towers. It was claimed by the White House (and subsequently propagated by the major media) that the towers collapsed because the intense heat of the burning jet fuel melted or weakened the steel columns that supported the twin towers <hr></blockquote>You don't want to believe the Bush/Cheney interpretation, do you, so you better believe in explosives. By the way, "Arab/Muslim terrorists" can't plant explosives, because, you know, they are simple folks who live in caves and mud huts. Ergo, Bush/Cheney did it. This curious logic is often <a href="http://www.physics911.net/otherattacks.htm" target="top">repeated</a>: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The realization that the attacks of September 11 2001 on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were not the work of Muslim/Arab "terrorists" raises a natural question.<hr></blockquote> And the answer to that natural question is predictable:<blockquote>Quote:<hr>carte blanche for the continuing takeover of Palestinian land for a Greater Israel and furtherance of Israeli Mideast hegemony through its surrogate, the United States of America.<hr></blockquote> The fact that the opposite is in fact happening and Israel has been forced to withdraw from the Gaza strip, and that none other than God himself is commanding Bush to establish a Palestinian state, should perhaps cause people to reconsider this particular theory. But then again, it probably won't. I'd like to quote something else, from the same "to the media visitor", I hope the irony isn't lost on people: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>We admit that the details given above are mainly technical in nature and we understand very well that many journalists are uncomfortable dealing with scientific and technical facts. This makes them easy targets for "experts" with an agenda. A simple example of precisely this phenomenon was witnessed by virtually everyone in the year 1999 when the dreaded "Y2K bug" threatened North America.<hr></blockquote> How very true... except the target of SPINE's "experts with an agenda" isn't the mainstream media, but the alternative internet media and those who are willing to consider alternative analyses of 9/11. The folks at 911Physics also argue that it is "impossible" that an <a href="http://www.physics911.net/omholt.htm" target="top">airliner hit the Pentagon</a>. The style of argument should be familiar by now: the laws of physics prove that it is "impossible", "absurd", "ridiculous" and "ludicrous" that things happened the way "Bush/Cheney" said it happened. Some "undeniable" facts and some cherry-picked photos are presented to support this conclusion. The word "official" is used a lot: "...phenomenally more trustworthy fact and plausibility than the pandered “official” positions". There's always an appeal to physical laws which supposedly show that everything is a lie: SIMPLE GEOMETRY TELLS THE TRUTH! Those arguments are of course difficult to evaluate for the average reader, but are presented as if it's oh so obvious, and as if you have to be a moron if you don't see it (and you don't want to believe "Bush/Cheney", do you?). 911Physics also have in their hands a supposed <a href="http://www.physics911.net/germanintel.htm" target="top">German intelligence report</a>, obtained from an "unknown source". The document is titled "Briefing on Suspicious Activities of Israeli Art Students". It states:<blockquote>Quote:<hr>The role of the Israeli Mossad in the terrorist attacks Note: The following two sections are considered to be extremely sensitive due to the special relationship between the Federal Republic [of Germany] and its Jewish citizens as well as the State of Israel. This material is compiled from German and American sources. During the term of President George HW Bush, the government of Israel made an official, but very secret, request to the American president. This request was to permit agents of the Mossad, Israeli Foreign Intelligence, to enter the United States and conduct surveillance operations against various Arab groups residing in that country. The stated purpose of this surveillance was to permit Israeli early warning of terrorist plots against their country. Permission for this surveillance was granted with the caveat that the Mossad would have a liaison with the FBI and report any and all finding to that agency. However, these conditions were not observed. The Mossad not only did not inform the FBI of any of its findings, it is known to have engaged in commerce with several groups of Israeli criminals of Russian backgrounds. These groups were engaged in extensive criminal activities inside the United States, to include the smuggling of the Ecstasy drug. Mossad agents were able to subvert American criminal investigations through their knowledge of American telephone surveillance of such groups. It is very evident from surveillance conducted against Mossad agents in the Federal Republic as well as interceptions of Israeli diplomatic communication from the Federal Republic to Tel Aviv, that the Mossad has successfully penetrated various extremist Arab groups in both the Federal Republic and the United States. These investigations disclosed in late May of 2001 that an attack was to be made against certain specified targets in the American cities of Washington and New York. But it was apparent that the Mossad was not only fully aware of these attacks well in advance but actually, though their own agents inside these Arab groups, assisted in the planning and the eventual execution of the attacks. That the Israeli government was fully aware of these attack is absolutely certain and proven. Diplomatic traffic between the Israeli Embassy in the Federal Republic and the Israeli Foreign Office made it very clear that Minister President Sharon was fully aware of this pending attack and urgently wished that no attempt was made to prevent the attacks. Although the Israeli officials were instructed to warn the American intelligence community that some kind of an attack might be possible, at no time were the specific dates and targets (known at that time to Israeli officials) to be given to the Americans. The rationale for this attitude was expressed in a conversation on August 1, 2001, between the Israeli Military Attaché in the Federal Republic to a member of the Israeli General Staff. There it was stated that Israel believed an attack on the continental United States would so inflame American public opinion that they would permit Israel to "cleanse" their state of "Arab terrorists and those who support such terrorists". This "cleansing" was explained as the expulsion of all Arabs, and even Christian groups, from the Palestine area. American intelligence officials have repeatedly expressed great concern in meeting with our people that the Israeli government, through a company called Amdocs, was able to conduct surveillance of all telephone communications within the United States. It was categorically stated that this Israeli-based firm was given the American contract with 25 of the largest American telephone companies. This contract was granted over the objections and concerns of the American intelligence community. The official reason given for this extraordinary arrangement that permitted Israeli agencies to observe all highly confidential investigative telephone calls was that the United States has a "special relationship" with the State of Israel and they had requested this. The Israeli Political Influence in the United States It should be noted here that the professional Israeli lobby in America is huge in size and is considered even by our American colleagues to be a very powerful and entirely dominant factor in American politics. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee is the largest foreign lobby in Washington and fourth most powerful lobby in the country. Other Israeli groups also include the Anti-Defamation League (from whose national offices, along with the Israel Trade Mission and the many Israeli Consulates, many Mossad agents were working,) the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs and the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America. These groups, in conjunction with Jewish dominated media giants like the New York Times, the Washington Post, Newsweek Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, Time- Warner-AOL and their CNN news network, basically control the dissemination of news in the United States. It is therefore almost impossible for any news that would be considered in opposition to Israeli interests to appear before the American public, although such stories are readily available in most European media.<hr></blockquote> To be fair, there's also some stuff in there about oil interests, thrown in for good measure. But it's obvious that this is regarded as secondary. The document concludes:<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Summary and Outlook The terrorist attacks on American targets were fully known to many entities well in advance. The US President was fully informed as to the nature and exact time of these attacks. The US government in general and the US President in specific have become subservient to the wishes and plans of the Israeli government. As these plans encompass the removal of the Arab population of Israel and adjoining territories, it is evident that the population of the United States is being pushed into a situation that could easily result in more, and terrible, attacks on their home country. In view of this possibility, the US authorities are determined to limit any discussion of the 11 September attacks to the official version as it appears regularly in the US media. It also appears from confidential sources that Bush's plans to attack Iraq are based mainly on a desire on the part of Israel to remove Saddam Hussein. Tel Aviv views Hussein as a real threat and has already attacked that country before. There is also evidence that if Hussein is toppled by American military forces, the oil resources of Iraq would be put under the control of a consortium of the American oil interests that so avidly support the Bush administration. Pullach, April 5, 2002<hr></blockquote> 911Physics/SPINE has only a mild caveat regarding its authenticity: <blockquote>Quote:<hr>The document may or may not be genuine. It has not been proven to be a forgery<hr></blockquote> How about that. I might be more willing to consider controlled demolition if it weren't for the fact that most of these arguments seem to originate in obvious disinfo sites like 911Physics. Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **Dreams End** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:22 pm

qutb, I don't have time right now, but you can keep going with that line of inquiry. Questionsquestions had an interesting piece on some of the original signers of the "9/11" truth movement statement and Hopsicker outlines how one of the bankrollers of that particular strain of "truth" was John "Men are from Mars" Gray...whose book, by the way, got to the bestseller list by virtue of many purchases from a Saudi company. He links Gray to infamous arms dealer Adnan Koshoggi. It's clear there is lots of disinfo. While I'm not sure that, "I found it on a disinfo site, therefore it isn't true" will be a good approach, as the best disinfo always includes truth, especially truth that's coming out anyway by other means, I think that IS a good reason to reject that site. If I had time, I'd research some of the members of that committee. Helpfully, they've already outed themselves as military intel. I hadn't heard of Leland Lehrman before...he's another Makow from what I can see, claiming Jewish descent and then...well, we know how that goes.

by **Qutb** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 1:31 pm

maggrwaggr <blockquote>Quote:<hr>And everyone's assuming the fireproofing came off BEFORE all of this happened? Good God. <hr></blockquote> I also wrote that, in the NG documentary, you can see photos of how much of the fireproofing was missing in the mid-90s, when it was inspected. They had only refurbished some of it, mainly in the north tower. So it's beyond dispute that there were problems with the fireproofing. Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **cortez** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:34 am

<img src="http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem4/1696-01.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <a href="http://images.indymedia.org/imc/ontario/wtc-2_demolition_waves.mpg">Video</a> Can someone (Qutb for example) explain the puff(s)? Since you are predominantly the skeptic of the CD theory, the vocal one on this thread at least. I ask because I believe it is the only real visual evidence that is a true easy to understand visual anomaly to the pancake theory. White hot smoke should not be jetting out a window.

by **ewastud** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:56 am

There are basically two materials commonly used for fire protection in buildings -- gypsum and concrete. Gyspsum is by far more commonly used because it is less expensive and lighter weight. However, it has no structural strength, just a powdery material with little cohesiveness between particles. Gypsum can be sprayed on, or sandwiched between sheets of paper - like drywall or wallboard. Anyone can see for themselves what a structurally weak material gypsum is because it requires nothing but a swift kick to punch a hole through half-inch sheet of drywall. Concrete is equally resistant to fire as gypsum, and it has the advantage of being a structural material. Concrete can encapsulate a steel structure; such construction is called "composite construction." There has long been a competition between steel and concrete in construction of high-rise buildings, but steel has always held the edge because of its special qualities -- especially elasticity (steel is actually a more elastic material than rubber). The tallest high-rise buildings are made of steel because of this quality primarily, I believe. Concrete structures tend to be less flexible and more stiff -- not so desirable in an envrionment which requires the structure to adapt to abrupt changes in temperature (causing expansion or contraction) or differences of temperature from one face of the building to the next, plus the vagaries of wind forces. A high-rise is structurally a giant cantilever with the greatest overturning bending force at the base. The purpose of fire-protective materials is to prevent the spread of the fire into designated exitways so as to enable occupants to evacuate the building before the fire reaches them and/or there is structural collapse. A fire is likely to destroy and cause the collapse of any building if not extinguished or if allowed to burn long enough. About 1/2 or 5/8" of drywall is determined to provide one-hour fire protection. In a high-rise building, the exitways and places of refuge are probably required to provide two to three hours of fire protection, at least in more modern buildings. I am not sure what the NYC code of the 1960's would have required. The white smoke seen coming from the building in pictures might also include debris such as insulation material and who knows what other contents from the building.

by **Qutb** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:02 am

I actually think the much vilified <a href="http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html" target="top">Popular Mechanics</a> article did a relatively decent job of debunking some of these arguments. And I agree with them: "Healthy skepticism, it seems, has curdled into paranoia". Healthy skepticism is what is always under attack from the masters of disinformation. They don't want us healthily skeptical, they want us terrified of the omnipotence of the Mighty Oz, the great wizard who can remote control airplanes into the WTC and demolish them with explosives, while making everybody believe that Arab terrorists did it. And they want us to try to make that case, and thereby to expose ourselves to the kind of debunking Popular Mechanics does in their article. Here's PM, on the puffs: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process "pancaking," and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report. Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air--along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse--was ejected with enormous energy. "When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window," NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, "but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception." Demolition expert Romero regrets that his comments to the Albuquerque Journal became fodder for conspiracy theorists. "I was misquoted in saying that I thought it was explosives that brought down the building," he tells PM. "I only said that that's what it looked like." Romero, who agrees with the scientific conclusion that fire triggered the collapses, demanded a retraction from the Journal. It was printed Sept. 22, 2001. "I felt like my scientific reputation was on the line." But emperors-clothes.com saw something else: "The paymaster of Romero's research institute is the Pentagon. Directly or indirectly, pressure was brought to bear, forcing Romero to retract his original statement." Romero responds: "Conspiracy theorists came out saying that the government got to me. That is the farthest thing from the truth. This has been an albatross around my neck for three years."<hr></blockquote> So why is the puff so far below where the collapse occurs? Beats me, but if the towers were brought down by thousands of explosive charges, which CD requires, there wouldn't just be one puff like that. Have you seen a controlled demolition? Qutb means "axis," "pole," "the center," which contains the periphery or is present in it. The qutb is a spiritual being, or function, which can reside in a human being or several human beings or a moment. It is the elusive mystery of how the divine gets delegated into the manifest world and obviously cannot be defined.

by **AnnaLivia** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:03 am

but why would there be just one puff from pancaking, either?

Controlled demolition: disinfo?

Re: there was no raging inferno

firsttimer, don't go...

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"missing" fireproofing

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