Simulist wrote:Percival wrote:Israel did NOT just jump aboard with the intent to harm, injure or kill, in fact the first group of commandos that came aboard were armed only with NON LETHAL WEAPONS, when they were attacked with knives etc, it was THEN that a second wave of Israelis came aboard with handguns and took control of the situation.
Further, this ship was radioed and told to offload their supplies a few miles away at an Israeli port so that the cargo could be inspected, like many other aid ships have done, and then they would have been allowed to proceed to the Gaza, but they refused and decided instead to provoke the IDF. I believe their agenda all along was to provoke an incident and that they did not in fact have the people of Gaza in mind at all. The evidence makes clear that it was a premeditated provocation designed to get Israel to over-react and further villify the Israeli state.
The blockade sucks but as long as the people of the Gaza continue to support Hamas, which has controlled the Gaza since 2007, Israel has no choice but to take a hard line and do what they must to prevent arms and rockets from entering and getting in to the hands of Hamas militants.
9 dead is nothing to be proud of and I believe Israel botched this terribly, but everyone in this thread is refusing to look at the other side of this story and is instead, en mass, taking the side of the supposed "activists" some of whom I believe, and the evidence suggests, may have been in league with Hamas, an internationally designated terrorist organization which has been randomly shelling Israel, its malls, neighborhoods, marketplaces etc, since 2007.
In light of that how can you expect Israel to just let any ship through without inspection, and what are they to do when a ship refuses to allow an inspection?
First, the ship was in international waters, Percival. Therefore boarding it was illegal.
Second, I recognize your role to incite around here, but can't you at least do it credibly?
And third, there is a "DELETE KEY" when you make a double post.
I have no such role here, in fact I have not posted here in months, but this thread caught my attention because it is clearly 100% anti-Israel and I think someone needed to speak for the other side.
Israel has a right to defend itself. We can argue about the means, we can point fingers when mistakes are made, but, the irreducible fact is that the right of self defense is a sovereign right that cannot be taken away.
The origins of this date to May of 1948 when Israel was established as a nation. The same day this occurred, all the nations of the Middle East declared war and sent their armies to annihilate the Jews and drive them into the sea.
I daresay that if you lived in Israel, with friends and family, and had to face the specter every day of rockets raining down on a civilian populace - and suicide bombers blowing themselves up in crowded marketplaces - you would be acting in a similar fashion as Israel is.
Israel is a rock that is not going anywhere - I dont care how many resolutions the UN passes, or how many people get upset by it. They arent going anywhere.
The US WILL turn their back on Israel (it is already happening) leaving Israel isolated and alone. Iran and Russia (along with Libya and others) are going to attempt to attack Israel and are going to be annihilated.
I have always been amazed at the level of restraint that Israel has shown over the years.
Critics of Israel’s action in the flotilla operation keep saying that the Gaza-bound ship was in international waters and that therefore the boarding was illegal. This seems self-evident—
to those ignorant of international law on the matter. And of course the press is not in the business of offering information to counter that ignorance, if such an act would go against the liberal cause du jour.
It's in plain fucking English in any international law case book...boarding that ship was not illegal, it cannot be construed as illegal, and anyone who thinks that it can quite simply doesn't know the first thing about international law. Detaining people in an international armed conflict is not an international crime, nor was any act taken in furtherance of a private aim, which is an essential element of piracy that is taken as a given by The International Maritime Bureau (IMB) (which endorsement or not surely does not have the authority to unilaterally amend UNCLOS).
Whether or not Israel broke international law in the way that they conducted the blockade is a distinct question and one that is, as most questions of IHL are, debatable.
As for those of you who are chlamoring for the US to cut ties with Israel, consider the facts:
That is an incredibly short sighted statement... the US "cutting the cord" wouldn't accomplish anything. The US needs to facilitate peace, not wash their hands with the situation that they were instrumental in causing to begin with and then pretend that they had nothing to do with it.
Let's look at the timeline:
1. US allows the Hollocaust to take place and denied Jews seeking refuge access to the country.
2. After WWII they don't know what to do with the millions of displaced Jews so (partly based on guilt) the US encouraged the UN to give them UK owned Palestine.
3. Israel has been in a never ending battle with the surrounding Arab Nations ever since.
My point is just that the US was a major factor in the situation. It's not like this was an unforeseeable occurrence, what did they expect would happen when they created Israel?
The problem was that no country wanted the Jews so they sent them to the Middle East... they figured that since they won the war they had the right to take the land away from the Palestinians consequences be damned.
So, now, 50+ years later, the solution is for the US to walk away from the mess they helped create? I don't think that's a viable solution.
You can't take something from someone, give it to someone else, and then walk away when the person you took it from starts fighting with the person you gave it to... that's not the right thing to do.
As for my news sources there is actual video footage of one of the activists saying herself that the first wave of Israeli commandos came aboard with only non lethal weapons, perhaps it is you reading the propaganda of Hamas and not I that has bad news sources?
I will end with this:
The Jews have a right to feel threatened and insecure. I don't think any non-Jew will understand things from their point of view.
But at some point, the more enlightened voices among them (such as Israel Shahak) need to come to terms with how their paranoia is perpetuating their problems.
All people deserve a right to have a homeland of their own. Jews wanted one, so ok.
But the double standards are the problem. If you hold your values only for your group, and deny them to outsiders, how do you think it will wash?
When Jews really attempt to erase their double-standard mentality (and see us as equals to themselves), and acknowledge the tragic role it has played in their history, we will see some change.
He left in a huff and he is back even huffier.
