Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby 17breezes » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:06 pm

Probe: Erdogan knew Gaza flotilla would be violent
Files found on activists' laptops pointed to strong ties between the Islamist IHH movement and Turkey's prime minister.

By Anshel Pfeffer
Tags: Israel news Gaza flotilla Middle East peace Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan knew in advance that activists aboard a Gaza-bound aid flotilla planned to attack Israeli troops, Israeli intelligence officials have said.

In a report published this week, a group of independent investigators from Israel's intelligence community found that activists aboard the 'Mavi Marmara' were part of an organized group that was prepared for a violent conflict.


Last week Israeli commandos killed nine pro-Palestinian activists when they boarded the Turkish-owned boat, part of a six-ship convoy trying to break Israel's maritime blockade on the Gaza Strip

The report, published by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (known in Israel by its Hebrew acronym Malam), said activists who attacked commandos with clubs and knives were supported by the Turkish government.

Malam is a privately run but is widely seen as an unofficial branch of Israel's intelligence community and has in the past been a medium for passing Israel's intelligence findings to the public.

The report said while most of the Mavi Marmara's 500 passengers were humanitarian volunteers who underwent security checks before boarding the ship at Antalya in Turkey, a group of 40 IHH activists had boarded the ship in an Istanbul port beforehand, keeping apart from the rest of the passengers throughout the journey.

This hard core of activists boarded the ship without checks and was equipped with communications equipment, flack jackets embroidered with Turkish flags, and gas masks, Malam said.

According to the report, the group turned the upper deck into its headquarters, blocking it off to other passengers. It had a clear internal hierarchy, with specific activists nominated as commanders.

Bülent Yıldırım, the leader of the IHH, an Islamic organization that planned the voyage, was on the Mavi Marmara and briefed group members about two hours before the Israeli Navy intercepted the ship. Their main objective was to hold back soldiers by any means, and to push them back into the sea.

As they had been banned from bringing wepaons aboard, IHH members improvised weapons including metal rods and knives cut from the ship's metal rails, which they used to attack the soldiers.

According to a witness aboard the ship, a confrontation broke out when the ship's crew heard IHH members sawing the railing into metal rods, but they were unable to confiscate them from them.

IHH activists also gathered all the knives from six cafeterias on the ship, as well as axes from fire extinguishers on the deck, all of which served as weapons against Israeli commandos .

Before the takeover, IHH ordered all other passengers into the hold of the ship and told them to remain there. Only journalists and security personnel were allowed access to the deck.

Video footage matched testimonies from passengers who claimed they witnessed any violence, as they were denied access to the deck, where the clash occurred.

The testimonies are also similar to the version given by the Navy commandos who said that they fought with a group of approximately 50 people who used every weapon available to attack them.

Eight of the nine dead were identified as IHH members.

Files found on laptops owned by the IHH members pointed at strong ties between the movement and Turkey's prime minister. Some of the activists even said that Erdogan was personally involved in the flotilla's preparations.

They also said that they knew in advance that their chances of making it into Gaza were slim, but their initial goal was to "to expose Israel's true face to the world."

An IHH journalist said during his investigation with Israeli security forces that "the Turks set a trap for you and you fell straight into it." He also said that the recent flotilla was the first in many.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... t-1.295144

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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Elvis » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:15 pm

The question was, "What is and isn't antisemitism?"

Your answer, 17Breezes, after three pages of dancing around it and trying to frame it in your favor with the old "let's get a consensus here" setup, is not really even an answer; it only begs the question further:

17breezes wrote:The EUMC puts it nicely:

Rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities. In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong”. It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits. Contemporary examples of anti-Semitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:



Quote:
* Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

* Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as a collective – such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

* Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

* Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).

* Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

* Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

* Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

* Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

* Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

* Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

* Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

* Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.

However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.


I'm no rocket scientist, and granted, some of the examples are clear cut instances of anti-Semitism that everyone can agree with. But I don't think you were talking about those examples, and "could" doesn't mean "does," so it seems to me that the question remains.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Simulist » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:18 pm

I think that the European Union's "Working Definition of Antisemitism" is a reasonable approach to this matter.

It is carefully worded, flexible, and nuanced.

Because of this precision, I agree that the word, "could," was carefully chosen, and carefully placed in the document.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby American Dream » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:30 pm

I can't say I fully like that definition. I think it's legitimate to critique the social order in Israel, up to and including taking an explicitly anti-Zionist position. It need not be anti-Semitic to take such a stance at all, though of course bonafide neo-Nazi, white supremacist, racist types really will hide behind a banner of Palestinian rights and anti-Semitism.

Given the "could" it's technically true, but it leaves us with a very fuzzy definition...
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Simulist » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:32 pm

But how does the EU's "Working Definition of Antisemitism" preclude a critique of Zionism?
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Elvis » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:43 pm

Simulist wrote:I think that the European Union's "Working Definition of Antisemitism" is a reasonable approach to this matter.

It is carefully worded, flexible, and nuanced.

Because of this precision, I agree that the word, "could," was carefully chosen, and carefully placed in the document.



I agree completely, but my point is that 17Breezes appears to use the definition to impute antisemitism to people who aren't anti-Semites.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby 17breezes » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:44 pm

Simulist wrote:But how does the EU's "Working Definition of Antisemitism" preclude a critique of Zionism?



It doesn't. The key is the double standard, the hate, the prejudice etc. There is another aspect too and that is that some people have no real idea about what Zionism really is and so approach it as a monolithic entity. This is probably just laziness or purposeful ignorance unless it reflect the things mentioned in the second sentence.

I personally see anti-Zionism as "racism" since it almost always comes equipped with hate, prejudice and double standards. I have personally yet to see any anti-zionism that isn't , tho I'm sure it exists. Feel free to show me that is the rule rather than the exception.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby 17breezes » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:45 pm

Elvis wrote:
Simulist wrote:I think that the European Union's "Working Definition of Antisemitism" is a reasonable approach to this matter.

It is carefully worded, flexible, and nuanced.

Because of this precision, I agree that the word, "could," was carefully chosen, and carefully placed in the document.



I agree completely, but my point is that 17Breezes appears to use the definition to impute antisemitism to people who aren't anti-Semites.


Eichmann said he had nothing personal against the Jews so excuse me if I take self descriptions with a HUGE grain of salt.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Jeff » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:57 pm

17breezes wrote:I personally see anti-Zionism as "racism" since it almost always comes equipped with hate, prejudice and double standards. I have personally yet to see any anti-zionism that isn't , tho I'm sure it exists. Feel free to show me that is the rule rather than the exception.


That may be your view, and I'm not going to try arguing you out of it, but do not conflate anti-semitism and anti-zionism on this board. That presumption does not promote discussion and goodwill and will foreshorten your time here.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby Simulist » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:00 pm

Elvis wrote:
Simulist wrote:I think that the European Union's "Working Definition of Antisemitism" is a reasonable approach to this matter.

It is carefully worded, flexible, and nuanced.

Because of this precision, I agree that the word, "could," was carefully chosen, and carefully placed in the document.



I agree completely, but my point is that 17Breezes appears to use the definition to impute antisemitism to people who aren't anti-Semites.

Your point is a good one.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby 17breezes » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:13 pm

Jeff wrote:
17breezes wrote:I personally see anti-Zionism as "racism" since it almost always comes equipped with hate, prejudice and double standards. I have personally yet to see any anti-zionism that isn't , tho I'm sure it exists. Feel free to show me that is the rule rather than the exception.


That may be your view, and I'm not going to try arguing you out of it, but do not conflate anti-semitism and anti-zionism on this board. That presumption does not promote discussion and goodwill and will foreshorten your time here.


Well alright. In that case my continued discussion of what is and isn't antisemitism is pointless and I will stop being a part of that discussion forthwith. Should others find it a useful discussion I will sustain from participating.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:22 pm

Jeff, technical point: Foreshortening is an optical function, and doesn't change the length of something. It can only be done with a discrete object, i.e., in retrospect the time of 17 may seem shorter than it was, thanks to foreshortening. So I think you mean shorten, unless of course you have already booted him. In which case we can all move on to the foreshortening, and the forgetting.
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby American Dream » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:27 pm

Yes, I think even zionist positions can be presented fruitfully, with intellectual integrity and a real respect for others who may disagree.

It's unfortunate that 17breezes meets neither of those criteria and I see no indication that he wants to change, nor can.

17breezes, do you want to change your act in any way whatsoever?
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby nathan28 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:42 pm

American Dream wrote:Yes, I think even zionist positions can be presented fruitfully, with intellectual integrity and a real respect for others who may disagree.

It's unfortunate that 17breezes meets neither of those criteria and I see no indication that he wants to change, nor can.

17breezes, will you be surprised when you change your act in any way whatsoever?


Fixed. :twisted:
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Re: Flotilla Update: Israel Attacks Convoy, Deaths Reported (2)

Postby compared2what? » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:56 am

17breezes wrote:
Rhetorical and physical manifestations of anti-Semitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities. In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong”. It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits. Contemporary examples of anti-Semitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

* Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

* Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as a collective – such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

* Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

* Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).

* Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

* Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

* Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

* Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

* Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

* Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

* Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

* Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.

However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.


I'd say that was as carefully phrased and comprehensive a definition as it's possible to come up with in this uncertain and ambiguous world. Which I appreciate. So thanks for posting it.

I have some comments. These are they:

Oh, man, I totally understand why all groups that author and distribute such things -- and this is true whether they're engaged in consciousness-raising wrt prejudice against Jews, Arabs, women, gay men and lesbians, the disabled, blacks, or any other class of people who are perceived as or actually are "Other" from a culturally hegemonic perspective -- feel they have to include a list of helpful, well-f'r-instance-type examples. Because that kind of outreach does have to be graspable by the least sensitive, dullest-witted and most-in need-of-remedial-education reader.

But it's a shame that consequently, everybody ends up getting the poor pamphlet-copywriter's best effort to produce something that isn't too obvious about its need constantly to bear the needs, comfort and reading-comprehension levels of the most unselfconsciously bigoted non-thinker that's capable of following any piece of writing more complex than Pat the Bunny in mind.

However, what can you do about that? It's not like the copy desk of The New York Times doesn't use much the same standard.

Which doesn't mean it's not still a shame. (If anything, the reverse.) Because it does have some serious drawbacks for which there's just no earthly way of compensating. Or even anticipating in any detail.

For example: I'd say -- and for very principled 1rst amendment reasons, among others -- that drawing-comparisons-between-contemporary-Israeli-policy-and-that-of-the-Nazis is as drawing-comparisons-between-contemporary-Israeli-policy-and-that-of-the-Nazis does.

Because that simply can't be said to be antisemitic (or pro-semitic) in any blunt-instrument kind of a way. Whether it's one or the other or neither will always be entirely dependent on -- inter alia -- to what end the comparison is being made; how comparable the person making it believes contemporary Israeli policy and that of the Nazis to be; the tone, style, mood and setting in which he or she makes it; and so on. To a much greater extent than that lost little "taking into account the overall context could include" firewall does anything to keep at bay.

I mean, I hold that it's always absolutely wrong for one class of et-cetera to so-on-and-so-forth another class of blah-blah-blah-I've-said-it-at-least-742-times. So strictly within the parameters of that categorical imperative, when I compare contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis, I find them both to be absolutely wrong. That really doesn't have anything at all to do with Nazis, Israelis, or Jews. Or, for that matter, human contingencies of any kind. I hold it impartially both for and against a class of Jews because the world happens to have given me occasions for it, and not because they're Jews.

And that principle is a very important one to me. To the point that I wouldn't even fully be me if I didn't hold that it's absolutely impermissible for the governors of any given polity to create, maintain, force or allow a two-tier system wrt personhood. Always. Whether they do it by an inch or a mile. Because that's a very fucking slippery slope. I mean, it's not like it's the only categorical imperative I've got. I'm also absolutely opposed to capital punishment, for example. But it is a categorical imperative and not, like, just some random principle I'm fond of. It's not antisemitic or otherwise bigoted. Yet per the above it should b

And while this may or may not be kinda by the way, it actually had its earliest origins in what I only discovered years later was my mistaken understanding of the lesson my parents had intended to impart when they said "Never again." Because I was (and still am) very literal-minded about some things. And no one ever told me it was just supposed to be about Jews. I was really only trying to be good. I mean, they seemed to want me to take it seriously. So that's what I did.

In any event: Thank you for posting the above. They're very good guidelines, imo. As long as you remain mindfully and judiciously alert to what I imagine would be the completely unintended adverse consequences that would follow from adhering to them as rigidly as you might if they were instead rules.

So, if you actually believe in hegemony, how can antizionism be anything BUT an hegemony designed to deny Jews what ever other human group is allowed. Ergo-prejudice. Ergo antisemtism. Short answer......look for the hate. If it's there, antisemitism is there.


Well....Hegemony is as hegemony does, too. Obviously.

And I'd say that's how antizionism can be something other than a hegemony designed to deny Jews what every other human group is allowed. Except that there are many persecuted human groups that aren't allowed to have a nation-state. But never mind that for the moment, it's not material to what I'm trying to say right now, which is purely about formal logic.

But you can see my point, right? It's that the first part of your premise is what appellate courts occasionally deem "unconstitutionally vague."

If, for example, the antizionist class was not hegemonic, its antzionism couldn't possibly be a hegemony designed for anything.

Also, insofar as a zionist state (I mean in the abstract, not the real-world state of Israel) would itself be inherently hegemonic, whether it was or wasn't something other than a hegemony designed to deny non-Jews what every other human group is (for the sake of argument) allowed would totally depend on what that state did, not what it was -- ie, a hegemony.

In this instance, a Jewish hegemony, as it happens. But for the purposes of logic, that, too, is immaterial. Because any nation-state with a culturally homogenous majority and ruling class of some sort would have to meet the same conditions as a zionist state would before "ergo prejudice" would be logically justified.

And those conditions would basically be two-fold:

    (1) The antipathy toward the hegemony of that state would have to arese from hostility toward what they were rather than what they did; and

    (2) The antipathetic group would have to be hegemonier than the hegemony of the state it opposed.

And there just flat-out and unambiguously are some opponents of Israel and/or zionism who'd make the cut on those criteria and others who wouldn't. Those who didn't couldn't be decisively determined to be antisemitic by those criteria. Yet they might still be antisemites. Ergo, you'd need to come up with some other standard by which to judge them in order to know.

http://www.antisemitism.org.il/eng/Working%20Definition%20of%20Antisemitism

It's not rocket science.


No, it's not. It's way more complicated. But also, to me, a much worthier endeavor. So thanks again.

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