is this board for the left-wing only?

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby Nordic » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:35 pm

While I despise political correctness as another form of censorship, I have to say that what I think is the most dangerous is the notion among the more "liberal" crowd that we have to consider every point of view as somehow valid, no matter how ugly or heinous it is.

Maybe the two are related.

Some words are fighting words.

For instance, I think Sean Hannity completely deserves to be whacked in the side of the head with a 2x4 for the things he's said. The fact that this doesn't happen to him on a regular basis is shocking to me.

(gee, there I go being all "combative" again. I know, it's SO offensive)
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby Sweejak » Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:30 pm

Nordic wrote:While I despise political correctness as another form of censorship, I have to say that what I think is the most dangerous is the notion among the more "liberal" crowd that we have to consider every point of view as somehow valid, no matter how ugly or heinous it is.

Maybe the two are related.

Some words are fighting words.

For instance, I think Sean Hannity completely deserves to be whacked in the side of the head with a 2x4 for the things he's said. The fact that this doesn't happen to him on a regular basis is shocking to me.

(gee, there I go being all "combative" again. I know, it's SO offensive)


During the W era I didn't much notice the prevalence of PC. It was there, but my focus was on W supporters and I thought to myself that the real problem here is that we have very different sources of information, and I thought about how painfully easy it is to get someone to do something outrageous simply by telling them a lie, reversing history or similar. It is an awesome power. But now in the O era I see PC as actually worse because it is self inflicted and short circuits what I would call 'common sense', and that It even shorts reality itself. I mean that on a human level, not a political one. Of course, these are my personal views and I'm sure there would be lots of disagreement when we came to specifics.

I think it's a good thing to understand your enemies for a couple of reasons. Firstly it takes the juice for hatred down a couple notches, in fact, sometimes, if you go too deep, your attack can be derailed. Secondly you learn where and when to strike.

Understanding does not mean agreement.
User avatar
Sweejak
 
Posts: 3250
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:40 pm
Location: Border Region 5
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby Nordic » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:18 pm

Sweejak wrote:I think it's a good thing to understand your enemies for a couple of reasons. Firstly it takes the juice for hatred down a couple notches, in fact, sometimes, if you go too deep, your attack can be derailed. Secondly you learn where and when to strike.

Understanding does not mean agreement.


Oh, I agree. And I understand bullies. That's why I think you have to hit them in the head with 2x4's.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby Sweejak » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:38 pm

LOL, right, hit them where it counts!
Agree with your point about everything being equally valid in a morally relativistic world. I think that's considered a conservative critique of liberalism BTW.
User avatar
Sweejak
 
Posts: 3250
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:40 pm
Location: Border Region 5
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby barracuda » Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:58 pm

Nordic wrote:Oh, I agree. And I understand bullies. That's why I think you have to hit them in the head with 2x4's.


Image

I hope you're not walking tall around here thinking you somehow "defeated" 17breezes with your big stick. You most decidedly did not. The reality is, he sent you packing. He's not gone because of anything you had to do with it. Your own behaviour was, realistically, much worse than his, and listed as close to brownshirting as I have ever seen on this board. You fought someone you thought was a monster, and became one yourself.

When you swing that two-by-four, be careful you don't hit yourself in the head. Or someplace where it might do even more damage.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
User avatar
barracuda
 
Posts: 12890
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:58 pm
Location: Niles, California
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby semper occultus » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:15 pm

LillyPatToo wrote:Behind most Conservative issues I hear raw fear of "the other" and a tendency to give over basic human rights to leaders who promise to protect them from the enemies that they've been conditioned to fear since birth. George Lakoff, a cognitive scientist who's studied the deep cognitive "frames" that underly our conscious thinking calls this inculcated mindset "strict father frames": Learn early to obey the strict father and to defer to him and he will keep you safe. Questioning authority becomes anathema and the child grows up to transfer their unquestioning loyalty to politicians who are well aware of how to "play" on the voter's fears in order to stay in power.


I wouldn't deny the truth in this but don't think this can be restricted to the conventional "right" of the political spectrum .... the Soviet Union under Stalin , North Korea etc?
User avatar
semper occultus
 
Posts: 2974
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:01 pm
Location: London,England
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:30 pm

semper occultus wrote:
LillyPatToo wrote:Behind most Conservative issues I hear raw fear of "the other" and a tendency to give over basic human rights to leaders who promise to protect them from the enemies that they've been conditioned to fear since birth. George Lakoff, a cognitive scientist who's studied the deep cognitive "frames" that underly our conscious thinking calls this inculcated mindset "strict father frames": Learn early to obey the strict father and to defer to him and he will keep you safe. Questioning authority becomes anathema and the child grows up to transfer their unquestioning loyalty to politicians who are well aware of how to "play" on the voter's fears in order to stay in power.


I wouldn't deny the truth in this but don't think this can be restricted to the conventional "right" of the political spectrum .... the Soviet Union under Stalin , North Korea etc?


Stalin and North Korea are conventional "right-wing" dictatorships. Stalin completed the Bolshevik displacement and elimination of the Revolution's originally leftward or liberatory thrust. The Stalinist regimes were no more communist than they were democratic (a label they also claimed, but which no one takes seriously).

Their hardliners lived in a symbiotic opposition to the Western "anti-communists." These two apparent extremes strengthened each other with each atrocity they committed. The Western "anti-communists" sought to burden everyone to the left of Allen Dulles (including Eisenhower, at one point) with the communist or "fellow-traveller" labels. In reality, the "anti-communists" were the closest thing to totalitarians in the West. I reject their definitions, hegemonic or not.

Every post on this thread has illustrated that the definitions, the semantical map we each draw, are as important or more important than the referrents, the ideas or objects to which the words refer (or just as often omit, conflate or distort).
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby Sweejak » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:42 pm

semper occultus wrote:
LillyPatToo wrote:Behind most Conservative issues I hear raw fear of "the other" and a tendency to give over basic human rights to leaders who promise to protect them from the enemies that they've been conditioned to fear since birth. George Lakoff, a cognitive scientist who's studied the deep cognitive "frames" that underly our conscious thinking calls this inculcated mindset "strict father frames": Learn early to obey the strict father and to defer to him and he will keep you safe. Questioning authority becomes anathema and the child grows up to transfer their unquestioning loyalty to politicians who are well aware of how to "play" on the voter's fears in order to stay in power.


I wouldn't deny the truth in this but don't think this can be restricted to the conventional "right" of the political spectrum .... the Soviet Union under Stalin , North Korea etc?


Conservatives didn't want war in Serbia, or Iraq, and they don't want it in Iran. The left will take away your civil rights just as fast as the right because totalitarianism and authoritarianism aren't left or right.

Re: Lakoff, What do you call PC other than learning to obey a "strict father", and gosh, there is that silly idea again that it is only conservatives who vote against their own interests. Everyone is subject to being taught to fear, all sides use fear. All sides act on fear. Where did anyone get the idea that fear is somehow grounded in an ideology?

I think it was Scott Horton, or someone he interviewed who made the following observation: the right blame the government; the left blame the corporations. I think that is about as useful as the R/L thing gets today and it gives lots of explanations for the tension and mistrust. I think it's got little to do with one's psychological make up, or who your father was. All this says nothing about national/cultural proclivities. I mean, some societies are just different, individualism may be a very, very odd and cold concept to some cultures, or, say something like landownership. Just as collectivism or "nanny stateism" might seem very alien to others. Also, I think the emphasis on these tendencies changes and shifts in time as well, for instance wartime always results in attacks on civil rights and an increase in authoritarian tendencies.

Authoritarian personalities and the psychology behind them are probably something different and I bet you'll find interesting gender and genetic underpinnings there, but right or left... I doubt it.
User avatar
Sweejak
 
Posts: 3250
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:40 pm
Location: Border Region 5
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:06 pm

Sweejak wrote:I think it was Scott Horton, or someone he interviewed who made the following observation: the right blame the government; the left blame the corporations.


Well that might simplify things since the big corporations are the government. They run the lawmakers through campaign finance and lobbying, and they run the agencies through regulatory capture and the revolving door. This has never been more evident than today, after the banksters destroyed the economy and were promptly given the maximum in bailouts and guarantees, and after BP turned the Gulf of Mexico into an oily desert and still is being allowed to manage the non-rescue operation. Corporations run the spooks, since the spooks are a privatized riot of corporations. The federal budget is a collection of corporate welfare measures, starting with the biggest and most important item by far, the military and war budgets.

The statement is, however, untrue. As we have seen in the last 20 years the right never blame the government, no matter how outrageously the government imposes on the supposedly god-given rights of man, as long as the government is headed by someone named Bush. "The government" only becomes a problem to the right when the executive is named Clinton or Obama, and then only insofar as "the government" seeks to impose (or merely pretends to impose) any form of order or limits on the crimes of the corporations and the rich. As long as the government is deporting Mexicans and blowing up Pakistanis, it's a great thing. Don't you find it strange that the supposed anti-government people are always first to salute magical pieces of cloth and men in uniform, and to call for full prisons and lots of executions?

I think it was me who said, though I wasn't the first, that left/right equivalence slogans are a tool that serves the right and that disguises the right/right reality of American politics. If there's a problem with the left, insofar as there is an organized left at all, it's in the lack of energy and cojones in comparison to the nutso foot soldiers of the right.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby Nordic » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:41 pm

barracuda wrote:
Nordic wrote:Oh, I agree. And I understand bullies. That's why I think you have to hit them in the head with 2x4's.


Image

I hope you're not walking tall around here thinking you somehow "defeated" 17breezes with your big stick. You most decidedly did not. The reality is, he sent you packing. He's not gone because of anything you had to do with it. Your own behaviour was, realistically, much worse than his, and listed as close to brownshirting as I have ever seen on this board. You fought someone you thought was a monster, and became one yourself.

When you swing that two-by-four, be careful you don't hit yourself in the head. Or someplace where it might do even more damage.


I'm quite aware I didn't somehow "defeat" Breezy, and it's really insulting that you would suggest I thought I did.

He didn't "send me packing", I made it quite clear I didn't want to contribute to a board where he was a member, and where such a person was not just tolerated but treated as someone special. Pretty simple.

And it's not the behavior that was the question, it was the views. And the blatant trollerly.

Anyway, is it really in your job as moderator to act with such insulting condescension toward someone ex post facto? What's your point? What's your motivation?
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby semper occultus » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:02 pm

JackRiddler wrote:The Stalinist regimes were no more communist than they were democratic


maybe not but certainly Stalin’s regime can't be described as conservative & I am not sure right-wing is a term flexible enough to encompass a form of collectivist national socialism that was quite revolutionary in its own brutalistic & inhuman way.
User avatar
semper occultus
 
Posts: 2974
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:01 pm
Location: London,England
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby Jeff » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:42 pm

semper occultus wrote:
JackRiddler wrote:The Stalinist regimes were no more communist than they were democratic


maybe not but certainly Stalin’s regime can't be described as conservative & I am not sure right-wing is a term flexible enough to encompass a form of collectivist national socialism that was quite revolutionary in its own brutalistic & inhuman way.


But you're confusing the terms conservative and right-wing. Conservatism may be right-wing, But not everything right-wing is conservative. Fascism certainly isn't, and Stalinism was reactionary and counter-revolutionary.
User avatar
Jeff
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11134
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 8:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby smiths » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:59 pm

again that depends on which fascism you are referring to,
in some ways hitlers policies were conservative, he certainly reestablished a strong business/government relationship which had been undermined by the 'democratic' yearnings of the weak weimar republic,

putin is a running an apparatus which is reactionary towards the regime of his predecessors, they were considered reactionary against that which precede them, and yet Putin would consider himself to be a conservative i would think

the Bush presidency was considered conservative and yet was reactionary on almost all fronts
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
User avatar
smiths
 
Posts: 2205
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 4:18 am
Location: perth, western australia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby barracuda » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:10 pm

Nordic wrote:Anyway, is it really in your job as moderator to act with such insulting condescension toward someone ex post facto?


Oh, heck no. I was actually clocked out just then.
The most dangerous traps are the ones you set for yourself. - Phillip Marlowe
User avatar
barracuda
 
Posts: 12890
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:58 pm
Location: Niles, California
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: is this board for the left-wing only?

Postby compared2what? » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:27 pm

Sweejak wrote:I think the most poisonous tendency everywhere today is political correctness. I don't see it on the right very much, they don't seem to care, but I do see a lot of it on the left. It's mentally corrosive.


The repression and/or stigmatization of certain personal opinions, beliefs and/or orientations isn't just mentally corrosive. It's incompatible with the preservation of a free society. Especially if it's accompanied by the privileging or mandating of other personal opinions, beliefs and/or orientations.

You might not notice that when you see it on the right. But there's absolutely no way that you don't see it. Because there's not a single contemporary faction on the right for which working to bring that about isn't a central (or the central) political purpose around which it coalesces.

It's just kind of a forest for the trees type of thing, it's too naturally a part of the landscape to be remarkable as such most of the time. Despite which, what you got on the right are:

* Traditionalists, who want to maintain the natural transcendence of a Christian moral order (and also preserve our heritage of reverence for the classical antecedents of western civilization -- ie, a core curriculum that counts Greek and Roman thinkers as a supreme influence in academic terms -- though you don't actually see too much of it on the stump).

But who are, in short, absolutely forthright about the inferiority and decadence of any and all other cultural influences and traditions. Though they now allow Catholics of Irish, Italian and Polish descent (plus a few others) to be naturally morally transcendent as long as they're not too ostentatiously ethnic or Catholic, which they didn't used to do when ethnic Catholics were mostly confined to the blue-collar communities they formed as first-generation immigrants. Same-but-different story with Jews, if they're wealthy or cultured or deracinated enough.

They also like local and regional governance and don't like federal or centralized power. They used to be at least a little more obvious about rooting for a social order that was basically a revamped and modernized version of old-school, pre-industrialized English manor-house-and-vicarage-based administrational authority of the landed gentry than they are now, although they haven't ever exactly emphasized that, obviously.

But that's what they're about, and it's enforced political correctness by any and every literal standard that there is.

Ron Paul is basically as close to being an unreconstructed traditionalist as it's politically viable to be in the present. IOW, not viable at all. That's why he and others have rebranded themselves as libertarians. The views of more traditional traditionalist types like William F. Buckley and Victor Davis Hanson do still have some followers, but not as many as you'd need to get elected.
__________________________

Hm. I'm expressing myself in many sentences and paragraphs again, dammit. But there's really no other way to express myself honestly, at least that I can think of. I mean, I could go the rhetorical shorthand route and get to more or less the same destination a lot faster, I suppose.

But then I'd only get there rhetorically. Besides which, I'd have to take the BP management approach to corner-cutting, wrt to just skipping steps on which doing the job well depends in order just to fucking get it done already. Which never ends well, imo.

Largely because imo it never ends. It's just a way of staying in the game by punting until most of the crowd loses interest, at which point you can just shoot whoever's standing between you and the goal line then claim it was just an accident, and furthermore not one that was your fault in any way, shape or form. Because who could have predicted (et cetera)?

Then you can just toss a sheet over the corpses, move the goal posts and start the whole thing all over. Never-endingly.

And without ever looking like anything but the very model of pith on a play-by-play basis, too. During every one of which I'd probably get flagged for....I guess, intentional grounding. (And btw: Aw, fuck, man. A combination penalty? That is just too fucking unfair. Fucking referees, they only ever call that when a talkative left-wing player does it. Meanwhile, you sure as hell don't ever see anyone waving while all those short-spoken assholes on the other side (plus the ones who make up most of my team) kick the ball back and forth over the fifty-yard line all day, do you? I was just trying to advance the ball by fair means and in full accordance with all the rules and customs of sportsmanlike conduct. Though don't mistake me. Because of course, I totally give credit to all the other players. They beat me fair and square, I can't argue with that.)
__________________________

Anyway. Sorry. I'll do the other factions one at a time, as briefly as I can. In the interests of which, may I stipulate now that of course there's a lot of overlap among and between them. And that furthermore, of course it's both intra- and interpartisan in nature? Because real life is rarely that simple? And real people never are?

Because I do happily stipulate to that, due to having no interest at all in qualifying every fucking thing down to its very last nuance, just for the sheer boredom and labor-intensive thrill of the thing. Believe it or not. So I'd much rather take it as granted that we're talking about the kind of thing that slops around, not the kind of thing that stays inertly in its neatly labeled container. As long as I can say once, in bold, indented type:

    That doesn't mean that there aren't any meaningful distinctions between and among factions and parties in contemporary American politics, so why bother splitting hairs.

    Because this is still just barely potentially a democracy. As I expect it will continue to be in some diminished and pathetic but nevertheless democratic form for at least another ten or fifteen minutes.

    By definition, in a democratic system of government, parties and factions are meaningfully distinct from one another if (we, the) people distinguish among and between them.

    And aren't when they don't.
__________________________

Which is actually why I'm lengthily-for-this-medium making some right now. It's always an important and productive thing to do, imo. Even though I have less than no hope that my doing it'll make any fucking difference in practical terms now or ever.

Because principles are also important. And so is articulating them. It's sort of like:

Sure, BP's mom may have no problems with letting it take as many shortcuts across unlit, unpaved roads that are just one extreme S-turn after another with no working breaks in the car at very high speeds as it feels like taking. To continue using BP as a metaphorically exemplary representation of The Corner-Cutter. Which isn't at all prejudicial. I have no idea what you're talking about.

In any event, I'd even concede that as far as it goes, it's not really illogical to respond, as some political factions do, by saying: "Well, since BP always walks away from whatever wreckage ensues with a few minor injuries at most, and its insurance covers whatever part of the damages to others it has to pay for, why shouldn't she? It's not her fault that your uptight and stupid mom doesn't love you enough to be as indulgent as she is and didn't thriftily save enough money to make it possible. You're a grown-up now, anyway, you're perfectly free to try doing the same thing if you really want to."
__________________________

It's just that all of that could be true as true can be from now until doomsday with no hint of change every becoming visible anywhere on the horizon, and it still wouldn't affect these two additional and (I would hold) self-evident truths by so much as a fraction of a percentage of one degree:

(a) As far as it goes isn't nearly far enough to make much of a difference to anybody, let alone to many; and

(b) Whether it's visible or not at any particular moment, the only beneficial political change that (we the) people can ever realistically hope to realize will always only be realistic if it's attainable by means that are realistically (and actually) available to (we the) people at rates that we don't have to mortgage (or sacrifice) any of our freedoms in order to pay.

And there are no such means apart from the ones that proceed from the ability to recognize, understand, make and articulate political distinctions with enough precision and detail to know what we support, what we oppose, and for what reasons. The last of which also have to be widely recognized and understood, which means that they too have to be both articulated and articulable with precision and in detail.

Language is the only tool that's realistically essential for the purposes of political empowerment, from a populist perspective. As well as from a PTB perspective, assuming a system that isn't primarily based on brute physical force, as a matter of fact. But fuck them.. They've got access to other tools. (We the) people, acting autonomously, independently, and in opposition to a Power That Is can only reliably count on having that one.

On the upside, we can pretty much always rely on having it. I mean, yes, you can make it very difficult for people to communicate, but you can't really render them powerless to do so if they don't want to be. Except by killing them or permanently confining them in isolation from one another or lobotomizing them in very large numbers or some roughly comparable extreme. All of which are very costly and ultimately unsustainable in the long run, as well as impossible to do globally to an entire population even in the short term.

And that's what I have to say about political correctness. Both in the conventional sense of the phrase as its deservedly applied to the left and in the form in which it's tacitly a permanent practice that's ideologically fundamental to every faction there is on the right.

Because either way, it has direct and indirect chilling effects not just on freedom of speech but on freedom of comprehension. So I agree with you and then some.

Also, I believe that George Orwell wrote an essay saying more or less the same thing, except much, much better. He had a way with words.
__________________________

Or maybe I won't do the other factions one at a time, actually. Or all together. Or in any way at all. Because I got other stuff to do right now. And by the time I'm finished with it, I'm pretty sure that I'll have remembered that it's really inconsiderate to impose your lengthy opinions on people who aren't interested in and didn't ask for them.

I did have fun writing the above, though. Plus I learned a little something about my own opinions while doing it. So thanks very much in advance for your tolerance, you all. It's sincerely and greatly appreciated.
User avatar
compared2what?
 
Posts: 8383
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:31 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 173 guests