mayhem is coming

[slomo]

I also wonder about this in the context of Magnasanti, the in-silico (Sim City) dystopia created by Vincent Ocasla that could in theory last 50,000 years. I wonder whether the longevity of Magnasanti is made possible only by a constant and large energy subsidy? If Magnasanti is impossible without the subsidy, then our own Ahrimanic civilization will be ultimately self-limiting. If Magnasanti is possible without such a subsidy, then Tainter's model is wrong (at least in certain highly artificial circumstances) and humanity may be doomed after all.

The longevity is possible because it's a computer simulation that doesn't deal with real humans at any point. You cannot design a human-proof environment -- God tried, it didn't work out for It, either -- and this is also why Jacques Fresco's Venus daydreams won't amount to much more than pretty paintings. All of these engineered solutions are great, unless you plan on putting humans inside of them.

(BTW, I tried the Tainter, couldn't get through it...just don't know enough to evaluate WTF he's talking about, nor did I trust the sourcing on his numbers.)

Well, yes, clearly Magnasanti is a theoretical construct. My concern is that intelligent humans at the top of our present pyramid are certainly paying attention to all theoretical models (note the interest in large-scale simulations, as recently detailed in several places including Cryptogon). The Second Law is inevitable, but that does not mean that social engineers are incapable of vastly extending the longevity of the coercive state (or at least trying to do so). At heart I'm an optimist, in that I think the energy subsidy will run out and all of the coercive technologies that depend on it will become obsolete, though I have no romantic illusions about the systems that might replace the current one.

As for Tainter, which numbers do you not trust? He does not get quantitative until Chapter 4. The data he presents mostly demonstrate that, past a certain point, there are marginal returns on investments in most or all areas that support complexity. The data are cherry-picked for sure, but do you disagree that investments in agriculture and in R&D yield decreasing marginal benefits?

[vince]

mayhem? I thought June-hem was bad! wait 'till July-hem!

[Simulist]

mayhem? I thought June-hem was bad! wait 'till July-hem!

And through it all, as long as Americans have their cell phone that will rub their balls and make pancakes for them* the general reaction will be ho-hum.

_________
*With due acknowledgment to the immortal bard, George Carlin.

[sfnate]

My concern is that intelligent humans at the top of our present pyramid are certainly paying attention to all theoretical models

Probably one of those models is undergoing a stress test now, in the Gulf. It will be interesting to observe how much abuse the local populations will endure before they rebel and seize back control of their own destinies. If that doesn't happen, if the population simply surrenders after making their reflexive and instinctive displays of outrage and sorrow, then we can be certain that the mad scientists observing the scene behind that invisible two-way mirror that separates the elites from their subjects, these engineers of doom will take notice and will certainly prepare reports for the political and corporate leadership documenting how the regime of total control can be maintained and extended even under the most extreme circumstances.

The illusion of freedom is perhaps the most debilitating and limiting myth we currently have in this country, if not the entire world. This is not the ranting of a conspiracy nut, it's a clinical and cold assessment based on the widely available literature created by advertising experts who describe the numerous ways a population can be easily manipulated to perform its primary function of consumption, within the limits established by the political, military, and corporate elites. Fifteen minutes in front of a flat-screen TV will quickly demonstrate how effective the campaign of control has become. It is truly a dark science combined with elements of crowleyan magick. (No offense to Crowley-ites, but I don't know how else to describe it.) We're transfixed and hypnotized and probably to such an extent that even our intellectual rebels can only operate within the carefully constructed confines of acceptable dissent.

[IanEye]

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more and more it seems like the ads and the shows are all smeared together....


















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[Sounder]

sfnate wrote...

...probably to such an extent that even our intellectual rebels can only operate within the carefully constructed confines of acceptable dissent.

Intellectual rebel? Pshhaw.

The intellect is the carefully constructed confine for acceptable dissent.

Like religion, the intellect has been poisoned by Dualism and its attendant split picture of reality, and for so long it seems as if everyone is totally dependent on the poison. Wierd.

[sfnate]

Intellectual rebel? Pshhaw.

The intellect is the carefully constructed confine for acceptable dissent.

Like religion, the intellect has been poisoned by Dualism and its attendant split picture of reality, and for so long it seems as if everyone is totally dependent on the poison. Wierd.

Well, yes, I guess we can talk about the Cartesian catastrophe and all the fallout from that (as well as the other innumerable intellectual philosophizing disasters that have resulted in the utter estrangement of mind from body and soul), fair enough, but I guess what I was struggling to say was that, within this paradigm of alienation you describe, even those people who have some purchase on the real issues and the real problems related to the command and control of human beings, even they are boxed in by invisible barriers, because the engineers who make our reality have devised through their mastery of thought and manipulation of impulse and instinct, they have created such an impenetrable labyrinth of mirrors and distortions that it is well-nigh impossible to navigate out of the nightmare. And even if we could somehow stumble out of the carnival, then like Neo in the Matrix, we would probably encounter a reality so completely beyond our immediate ability to respond, that we would remain slack-jawed just long enough for the guys in white coats to track us down and haul us back in.

Now that they have nearly autonomous technologies of control at their disposal, escape is that much harder. It's like the Rover from The Prisoner--you can hit the sea running and start swimming for your life, but it's out there waiting for you, always ready and eternally vigilant. Swimming the reality waves is hard enough without that thing pressing down on you...

[8bitagent]

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I think Im going to be sick

[Sounder]

sfnate wrote…

...within this paradigm of alienation you describe, even those people who have some purchase on the real issues and the real problems related to the command and control of human beings, even they are boxed in by invisible barriers, because the engineers who make our reality have devised through their mastery of thought and manipulation of impulse and instinct, they have created such an impenetrable labyrinth of mirrors and distortions that it is well-nigh impossible to navigate out of the nightmare.

sfnate, I would like to respond more to your observations but am pressed for time so will only say; this illusion of a lifestyle is but a bubble to be popped.

When rising surface tension brings on the inevitable, we will need new material (correlations that connect categories) to help folk sort out the fresh flood of sensations.

Serving humanity (and self) involves charting this course rather than our tendency to dream up new dystopias.

[Perelandra]

[IanEye]

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[82_28]

Missed that post of the images IanEye. Fascinating. I love that kind of multicontextual shit.

It seems I saw a variation on the Sherwin Williams paint ad somewhere too recently - slightly out of context though as far as paint. Can't remember where though. Arghh. . .

[IanEye]

sigh.... it's Don Draper's world, I just live in it.

[pepsified thinker]

synchronicity or something--a tree branch fell on a woman and her 6 mo. old while they were posing for pictures at the zoo (in Central Park?--IIRC).
The 6 mo. old died.

I didn't read all of the thread, or watch all the videos but the early ones seemed to refer to tree branches falling. Sorry if the tree branch falling on the 6 mo. old is unrelated--hate to put that situation in front of you all even if it does relate, but especially so if it doesn't.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/nyregion/27zoo.html

[anothershamus]

You can only play this once:

http://s0.ilike.com/play#Warren+Zevon:A ... d27cdb20dc