Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

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Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby Nordic » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:45 am

Dr. Gabor Maté on the Stress-Disease Connection, Addiction, Attention Deficit Disorder and the Destruction of American Childhood

This is, quite simply, a fascinating interview. In it, the Dr. talks about addiction, education, American culture, the "war on drugs", child raising, and many other things, now they're all connected.

It's an extremely fresh and compelling take on all of this.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/12/24/ ... the_stress

Here's the first bit of it:

DR. GABOR MATÉ: The hardcore drug addicts that I treat, but according to all studies in the States, as well, are, without exception, people who have had extraordinarily difficult lives. And the commonality is childhood abuse. In other words, these people all enter life under extremely adverse circumstances. Not only did they not get what they need for healthy development, they actually got negative circumstances of neglect. I don’t have a single female patient in the Downtown Eastside who wasn’t sexually abused, for example, as were many of the men, or abused, neglected and abandoned serially, over and over again.

And that’s what sets up the brain biology of addiction. In other words, the addiction is related both psychologically, in terms of emotional pain relief, and neurobiological development to early adversity.

AMY GOODMAN: What does the title of your book mean, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts?

DR. GABOR MATÉ: Well, it’s a Buddhist phrase. In the Buddhists’ psychology, there are a number of realms that human beings cycle through, all of us. One is the human realm, which is our ordinary selves. The hell realm is that of unbearable rage, fear, you know, these emotions that are difficult to handle. The animal realm is our instincts and our id and our passions.

Now, the hungry ghost realm, the creatures in it are depicted as people with large empty bellies, small mouths and scrawny thin necks. They can never get enough satisfaction. They can never fill their bellies. They’re always hungry, always empty, always seeking it from the outside. That speaks to a part of us that I have and everybody in our society has, where we want satisfaction from the outside, where we’re empty, where we want to be soothed by something in the short term, but we can never feel that or fulfill that insatiety from the outside. The addicts are in that realm all the time. Most of us are in that realm some of the time. And my point really is, is that there’s no clear distinction between the identified addict and the rest of us. There’s just a continuum in which we all may be found. They’re on it, because they’ve suffered a lot more than most of us.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the biology of addiction?

DR. GABOR MATÉ: For sure. You see, if you look at the brain circuits involved in addiction—and that’s true whether it’s a shopping addiction like mine or an addiction to opiates like the heroin addict—we’re looking for endorphins in our brains. Endorphins are the brain’s feel good, reward, pleasure and pain relief chemicals. They also happen to be the love chemicals that connect us to the universe and to one another.

Now, that circuitry in addicts doesn’t function very well, as the circuitry of incentive and motivation, which involves the chemical dopamine, also doesn’t function very well. Stimulant drugs like cocaine and crystal meth, nicotine and caffeine, all elevate dopamine levels in the brain, as does sexual acting out, as does extreme sports, as does workaholism and so on.

Now, the issue is, why do these circuits not work so well in some people, because the drugs in themselves are not surprisingly addictive. And what I mean by that is, is that most people who try most drugs never become addicted to them. And so, there has to be susceptibility there. And the susceptible people are the ones with these impaired brain circuits, and the impairment is caused by early adversity, rather than by genetics.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you mean, “early adversity”?

DR. GABOR MATÉ: Well, the human brain, unlike any other mammal, for the most part develops under the influence of the environment. And that’s because, from the evolutionary point of view, we developed these large heads, large fore-brains, and to walk on two legs we have a narrow pelvis. That means—large head, narrow pelvis—we have to be born prematurely. Otherwise, we would never get born. The head already is the biggest part of the body. Now, the horse can run on the first day of life. Human beings aren’t that developed for two years. That means much of our brain development, that in other animals occurs safely in the uterus, for us has to occur out there in the environment. And which circuits develop and which don’t depend very much on environmental input.

When people are mistreated, stressed or abused, their brains don’t develop the way they ought to. It’s that simple. And unfortunately, my profession, the medical profession, puts all the emphasis on genetics rather than on the environment, which, of course, is a simple explanation. It also takes everybody off the hook.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you mean, it takes people off the hook?

DR. GABOR MATÉ: Well, if people’s behaviors and dysfunctions are regulated, controlled and determined by genes, we don’t have to look at child welfare policies, we don’t have to look at the kind of support that we give to pregnant women, we don’t have to look at the kind of non-support that we give to families, so that, you know, most children in North America now have to be away from their parents from an early age on because of economic considerations. And especially in the States, because of the welfare laws, women are forced to go find low-paying jobs far away from home, often single women, and not see their kids for most of the day. Under those conditions, kids’ brains don’t develop the way they need to.

And so, if it’s all caused by genetics, we don’t have to look at those social policies; we don’t have to look at our politics that disadvantage certain minority groups, so cause them more stress, cause them more pain, in other words, more predisposition for addictions; we don’t have to look at economic inequalities. If it’s all genes, it’s all—we’re all innocent, and society doesn’t have to take a hard look at its own attitudes and policies.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about this whole approach of criminalization versus harm reduction, how you think addicts should be treated, and how they are, in the United States and Canada?

DR. GABOR MATÉ: Well, the first point to get there is that if people who become severe addicts, as shown by all the studies, were for the most part abused children, then we realize that the war on drugs is actually waged against people that were abused from the moment they were born, or from an early age on. In other words, we’re punishing people for having been abused. That’s the first point.

The second point is, is that the research clearly shows that the biggest driver of addictive relapse and addictive behavior is actually stress. In North America right now, because of the economic crisis, a lot of people are eating junk food, because junk foods release endorphins and dopamine in the brain. So that stress drives addiction.

Now imagine a situation where we’re trying to figure out how to help addicts. Would we come up with a system that stresses them to the max? Who would design a system that ostracizes, marginalizes, impoverishes and ensures the disease of the addict, and hope, through that system, to rehabilitate large numbers? It can’t be done. In other words, the so-called “war on drugs,” which, as the new drug czar points out, is a war on people, actually entrenches addiction deeply. Furthermore, it institutionalizes people in facilities where the care is very—there’s no care. We call it a “correctional” system, but it doesn’t correct anything. It’s a punitive system. So people suffer more, and then they come out, and of course they’re more entrenched in their addiction than they were when they went in.
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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby norton ash » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:05 am

I'm a big admirer of Dr. Mate, and he has contributed a particularly enlightened and compassionate view to the conversation on addiction.
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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby undead » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:05 am

Bump. Agreement. First step for reforming the mental health system is recognizing the central role of trauma and throwing out the deterministic focus on nonexistent "genetic predispositions". Right now mental health treatment is in a stage that is equivalent to bloodletting and leaches, and that's being charitable.
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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby KudZu LoTek » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:37 pm

Excellent article, Nordic. It's good to know that with Dr. Maté there's at least one voice of reason trying to be heard above the din, but there are two things that were slightly disconcerting.

First, his choice of metaphor - AFAIK in traditional mythology the "hungry ghosts" are considered to be damned without hope of reprieve for all eternity. As undead just pointed out, the gist of his work seems to be pointing away from a deterministic viewpoint of addiction, so his choice to use the "hungry ghost" term seemed odd. I'm hoping that it's just an aberration and that the greater body of his work continues in the vein that his interview did.

Second was his assumption that the system is in any way configured or even interested in helping addicts. That is sadly naive and may hinder his attempts to address the problems within the system.
Now imagine a situation where we’re trying to figure out how to help addicts. Would we come up with a system that stresses them to the max? Who would design a system that ostracizes, marginalizes, impoverishes and ensures the disease of the addict, and hope, through that system, to rehabilitate large numbers?
Ummm, people who stand to profit from the prison industry and the cheap slave labor it provides?



None the less, Dr. Maté's work is highly laudable and will hopefully serve as a stepping stone toward reformation of seriously backward views on the nature of addiction.
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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby Bruce Dazzling » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:49 pm

Good stuff.

I found this part especially interesting.

Now, the issue is, why do these circuits not work so well in some people, because the drugs in themselves are not surprisingly addictive. And what I mean by that is, is that most people who try most drugs never become addicted to them. And so, there has to be susceptibility there. And the susceptible people are the ones with these impaired brain circuits, and the impairment is caused by early adversity, rather than by genetics.


I was just discussing cigarette addiction with my father and I said that I believe that certain people are prone to addiction while others are not. I pointed out that both he and my mother have been hopelessly addicted to cigarettes for 50 years, while I've been able to remain a social smoker for 20.

And yes, there have been long periods where I've smoked as much as a half a pack per day, but I've always been able to stop any time I want to. In fact, I can't even wrap my brain around the idea of being addicted to smoking. It just doesn't compute for me. I do it sometimes because I find it pleasant, but that's the extent of it. My long-time girlfriend is the same way.

Now, this isn't to say that I don't understand that my parents are both addicted in the truest sense of the word, as they both have tried to quit several times and were tortured by the process. I'm just saying that I've long thought that their addiction stemmed from some sort of a personal trait, similar to being naturally gifted at guitar, for example, or not liking cheese.

The idea that their addictions stemmed from some early adversity rings true to me, and also jibes with the fact that they provided me with a very pleasant early childhood. I'm going to discuss this angle in more detail with my father the next time I see him.
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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby undead » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:53 pm

KudZu LoTek wrote:First, his choice of metaphor - AFAIK in traditional mythology the "hungry ghosts" are considered to be damned without hope of reprieve for all eternity. As undead just pointed out, the gist of his work seems to be pointing away from a deterministic viewpoint of addiction, so his choice to use the "hungry ghost" term seemed odd. I'm hoping that it's just an aberration and that the greater body of his work continues in the vein that his interview did.


I think he probably wasn't looking that deeply into it, so I wouldn't consider it so significant. I have worked with people who are clearly possessed by such demons, and it can be difficult to keep in mind the difference between a person who is a hungry ghost and a person who is possessed by hungry ghosts, especially when the original victim is hardly there at all. Unfortunately in this line of work you will meet a lot of people who are hopelessly damaged and in realistic terms are never coming back. That is what makes people so prone to blaming the victim and treating addiction and mental illness as an inborn trait, as opposed to an external traumatic pressure. People would rather give up on helping these people so they rationalize.

As far as working within the system goes, the naivety is symptomatic of almost all professional practitioners and pretty unaviodable. Nobody wants to see themselves as part of a malicious and totally false system, and you can't understand a system objectively from the inside. Still, he's trying, and that's a lot more useful than being detached and making comments.
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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby norton ash » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:28 pm

Kudzu:
AFAIK in traditional mythology the "hungry ghosts" are considered to be damned without hope of reprieve for all eternity. As undead just pointed out, the gist of his work seems to be pointing away from a deterministic viewpoint of addiction, so his choice to use the "hungry ghost" term seemed odd. I'm hoping that it's just an aberration and that the greater body of his work continues in the vein that his interview did.


Hungry Ghost is an apt metaphor for an addict. While you're addicted, you'll keep consuming and never be satisfied, never be able to rest or be happy for any substantial length of time. I have no problem with Mate's use of it, as Mate works toward ending addiction and guiding escape from the realm of hungry ghosts. You're not damned if there's an exit... no exit, that's hell, innit.

Emerge from the addiction, you may lose the constant hunger for something that can't really feed you while it starves the rest of your existence.
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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby Iamwhomiam » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:12 pm

I think Norton's analogue re: addict = Hungry Ghost is apt.

But just to clarify the "Realm" or "Bardo of Hungry Ghosts," and perhaps doing so will also better one's understanding of "Karma," Karma is not something that any living person experiences, for karma is the result of one's reaction to their soul's travels through the after-death Bardos. Dr. Mate's description of a Hungry Ghost is correct, I believe.

Hungry Ghosts are soul-suckers. If one "eats" your soul, you too, will become a Hungry Ghost.

The better prepared one is for death, that is, understanding that their experiences in this transitional after-death state will merely be the totality of their own consciousness, and their reaction to it, the easier their transition to a favorable rebirth.

Buddhism teaches that after death the soul will need time to adjust to its new surroundings. Those who are ill prepared will soon forget that they have died and believe their experiences "real," instead of understanding they're only experiencing their own consciousness, and react in a way unfavorable to a "better" rebirth than that of their just past life.

Kind of like a severely edited movie, one will first experience all of their "good" memories of their just past life before being confronted with all of their "bad" memories. (bad being their misdeeds) It is at this point also that Karma plays a role. One who is well prepared, understands these experiences aren't real and passes through the several Bardos without reacting to them in a way detrimental to their rebirth. Those who are not well prepared have now forgotten they are dead, and believe their experiences to be real and get freaked out.

The less we have “sinned” or acted badly towards others during our lives, the less distracting baggage we have to deal with after death.

Undead, I would think that one possessed by a Hungry Ghost would be obese, their own soul quite pushed aside, but their attempt to quench their insatiable appetite for food. Aside from prayer to induce exorcism, perhaps a near starvation diet would encourage their leaving to find a more accommodating host.

I don’t know for sure whether there are any living people who are Hungry Ghosts that are not possessed, but I don’t believe that is possible. It is possible that a Hungry Ghost can nearly fully possess an individual, though, apparently leaving all traces of the individual’s personality completely absent.

Thank you for posting the interview, Nordic, I found it interesting.

(I should have said this earlier but I’m referring only to Tibetan Buddhism.)

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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby Plutonia » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:07 pm

KudZu LoTek wrote:First, his choice of metaphor - AFAIK in traditional mythology the "hungry ghosts" are considered to be damned without hope of reprieve for all eternity. As undead just pointed out, the gist of his work seems to be pointing away from a deterministic viewpoint of addiction, so his choice to use the "hungry ghost" term seemed odd. I'm hoping that it's just an aberration and that the greater body of his work continues in the vein that his interview did.
I've met Dr. Mate. As you might expect he's a very intense up-front kind of guy. He has said that he considers his work with addicts in the Downtown Eastside palliative care- as in they are so damaged as to be terminally ill. I think he spoke about that aspect in a CBC radio interview he did a couple of years ago.

KudZu LoTek wrote:Second was his assumption that the system is in any way configured or even interested in helping addicts. That is sadly naive and may hinder his attempts to address the problems within the system.
Now imagine a situation where we’re trying to figure out how to help addicts. Would we come up with a system that stresses them to the max? Who would design a system that ostracizes, marginalizes, impoverishes and ensures the disease of the addict, and hope, through that system, to rehabilitate large numbers?
Ummm, people who stand to profit from the prison industry and the cheap slave labor it provides?

Actually it's bigger than that. Most of the addicts in the Downtown Eastside are Native and as such, are survivors of the Residential School system or offspring of survivors. That system was administered from Ottawa by the Department of Mines and Resources for most of it's duration, which was from about 1878 until 1981 in BC. It was and is, an expedient way for non-Native opportunists oh! I mean governments! to get access to Native lands and Resources. Ongoing etc etc.

Also, Vancouver is a hotbed of organized crime, corrupt police and officials. In the Downtown Eastside many building are owned by H_A's so you have situations where women are pimped by their landlords for rent and drugs. It was those women who were targeted by the Pictons, the H_A's and their co-conspirators.


To get back to Mate though, something of note is that he was born in the Jewish ghetto in Budapest a couple of months before the Nazi occupation and the conditions of the Downtown Eastside are probably not that dissimilar from the conditions he was born into- a ghettoized population, traumatized and impoverished by genocidal practices.
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Postby annie aronburg » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:19 pm

Here's the interview for the tl;dr set:
"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.
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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby KudZu LoTek » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:38 am

Thank you to all for you thoughtful and considered replies. Over the years I've lost several very good friends to various addictions, people that were closer to me than any blood family I've ever had. Trying to understand what happened to them was a big part of what led me to researching Buddhism and it's concepts of consciousness and experience in the first place. If I've been overly pedantic or nit-picky it's because I'm still pondering and hoping and praying that somewhere, sometime, somehow there's a chance that they're alright.

undead wrote:Unfortunately in this line of work you will meet a lot of people who are hopelessly damaged and in realistic terms are never coming back. That is what makes people so prone to blaming the victim and treating addiction and mental illness as an inborn trait, as opposed to an external traumatic pressure. People would rather give up on helping these people so they rationalize.
Very true, and that is what makes the subject hard to even contemplate. Looking into the eyes of a loved one, even someone who has managed to get clean, and realizing that there's something missing, something that might never be coming back, it hurts in ways I did not imagine possible. The least we can do for those who have gone is to not turn away.

undead wrote:As far as working within the system goes, the naivety is symptomatic of almost all professional practitioners and pretty unaviodable. Nobody wants to see themselves as part of a malicious and totally false system, and you can't understand a system objectively from the inside. Still, he's trying, and that's a lot more useful than being detached and making comments.
Also very true - I am hoping that Dr. Maté's views are the beginnings of a change in the tide that will take current ways of thinking in a more constructive direction.


Iamwhomiam wrote:(I should have said this earlier but I’m referring only to Tibetan Buddhism.)
That actually does place Maté's choice of the term in a different context. Most of the writings I've encountered so far concerning "hungry ghosts" were from Japanese schools of thought, which do have a tendency to be a bit more hard-nosed and less forgiving than the Tibetan way of looking at things. I'm going to have to do some more research on the subject and check out the full text of his book as well. Any glimmers of hope are appreciated on this grim subject, even if it's simply on a metaphorical level.

Plutonia wrote:He has said that he considers his work with addicts in the Downtown Eastside palliative care- as in they are so damaged as to be terminally ill.
Grim, but accurate. I don't know the answer as to whether a person that's gone all the way down the rabbit hole can fully come back, but usually it's better to face an ugly truth than embrace a comforting lie. And even the harsher forms of Japanese Buddhism will still leave offerings and prayers for the ghosts in hope of buying them a temporary release from their sufferings. In the end, compassion is all.

Plutonia wrote:Actually it's bigger than that. Most of the addicts in the Downtown Eastside are Native and as such, are survivors of the Residential School system or offspring of survivors. That system was administered from Ottawa by the Department of Mines and Resources for most of it's duration, which was from about 1878 until 1981 in BC. It was and is, an expedient way for non-Native opportunists oh! I mean governments! to get access to Native lands and Resources. Ongoing etc etc.

Also, Vancouver is a hotbed of organized crime, corrupt police and officials. In the Downtown Eastside many building are owned by H_A's so you have situations where women are pimped by their landlords for rent and drugs. It was those women who were targeted by the Pictons, the H_A's and their co-conspirators.
Knowing that people who profiteer off of addicts are building their own special hell for themselves, brick by brick, brings me little satisfaction. At the risk of my own clarity, I think it would be very pleasing to see those exploiters get the shit kicked out them in the here and now, repeatedly and thoroughly.


@Annie: I haven't watched the video yet, but I'll try to check it out soon. Putting the vocal inflection and body language back into a discussion can reveal layers of meaning that were lost in a text-only format. I probably missed big chunks of context along the way that I'll be able plug back into what Dr. Maté wanted to communicate. Many thanks!



And one last thing...
Iamwhomiam wrote:KudZuLoTec, still think you've the coolest avatar.
Hells bells, we're all cool avatars here, plus a few groovy dakinis, shaktis, and tulpas to boot. Drive it like you stole it, baby!
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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby Twyla LaSarc » Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:59 pm

Over the years I have met a few of these 'hungry ghosts' and have seen a few others descend there. The common thread I observed was childhood abuse. An signifigant number were raised in cult-type atmospheres ( JW, raving nut christianity), had been physically and/or mentally abused by some controlling 'alpha' member of the family, and most had been sexually abused as well.

Not necessarily scientific evidence, but an observation of maybe the dozen or so addicts I've encountered.

I hadn't heard of Mate before seeing this interview elsewhere a few days ago, but I will be looking him up. He has provoked interesting conversation in a number of places.
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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby hanshan » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:41 pm

...

***bumping***

...
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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby Project Willow » Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:53 pm

Thanks for bumping. I don't know how I missed this last year. Nice answer to the OP of this thread: http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32919 which was rather misleading.
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Re: Fascinating interview with Dr. Gabor Mate

Postby ShinShinKid » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:02 pm

The Buddhists I know refer to children as "hungry ghosts".
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