Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:42 pm

Scenarios: U.S. walks tightrope between Mubarak, protesters


By Arshad Mohammed
WASHINGTON | Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:38pm EST
(Reuters) - The United States pressed Egyptian Hosni Mubarak on Saturday to make political reforms, walking a fine line between supporting the democratic ideals of protesters without outright abandoning an ally of 30 years.

Having dismissed his Cabinet, Mubarak sought to shore up his rule with two military men, tapping intelligence chief Omar Suleiman as Egypt's first vice president in three decades and former Air Force commander Ahmed Shafiq as prime minister.

Here are some of the U.S. policy options:

BALANCING ACT (MOST LIKELY)

The United States has stepped up calls for Mubarak's government to make political and economic reforms and to restrain security forces from attacking protesters.

But it has also made clear it is not abandoning Mubarak, at least for now, and that it is looking to work with the Egyptian government to undertake reforms.

The result is a balancing act that analysts suggest aims to position the United States to be able to work with whoever prevails -- the Mubarak government or its successor.

"The tightrope that the administration has to walk is that the regime probably is going to survive," said Kenneth Pollack, director of the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution think tank in Washington.

"The history of revolutions is that they only succeed when the government loses the will or the capability to use violence and so far there is nothing that is happening in Egypt that suggests that either one is going to happen."

U.S. President Barack Obama met for just over an hour on Saturday with his national security advisers, and the White House said he stressed "our focus on opposing violence and calling for restraint; supporting universal rights; and supporting concrete steps that advance political reform."

It appeared unlikely the White House, or the protesters, would view Suleiman and Shafiq's appointments as steps in the right direction.

"I can't think of a worse appointment than Omar Suleiman as the vice president of Egypt. He is the symbol of the police state," said Council on Foreign Relations analyst Robert Danin. "His appointment is just going to antagonize the protesters,"

However, he said it might be a step to ensure the loyalty of the military and a precursor to Mubarak eventually leaving office.

BACKING MUBARAK TO THE HILT (UNLIKELY)

Mubarak, a former air force officer who replaced assassinated President Anwar Sadat in 1981, has been a vital U.S. partner because of his support for Egypt's peace treaty with Israel, his backing for a wider Arab-Israeli peace and his help on counterterrorism and other issues.

Stability in Egypt for the past three decades has been of immense value to Israel, which has not had to worry about its Egyptian flank since the 1979 peace treaty that flowed from the Camp David Accords brokered by U.S. President Jimmy Carter.

If it were to offer Mubarak unstinting support, the United States would run the risk of being on the wrong side of history and of sticking with an authoritarian leader whose forces have used rubber bullets, tear gas and water cannon against protesters.

While U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton described the Mubarak government as stable on Tuesday, the administration has gradually shifted its emphasis, making its calls for reform more pointed and on Friday telling Cairo to "restrain" its security forces.

On Friday, Obama spoke to Mubarak by telephone and said he had told the Egyptian leader he must keep his word to create a better democracy with more economic opportunity.

"What's needed right now are concrete steps that advance the rights of the Egyptian people: a meaningful dialogue between the government and its citizens, and a path of political change that leads to a future of greater freedom and greater opportunity and justice," Obama said.

To offer Mubarak uncritical support risks antagonizing not only Egyptians but also Arabs throughout the region, many of whom deeply resent Washington for backing their authoritarian leaders, supporting Israel and invading Iraq and Afghanistan.

ABANDONING OR SANCTIONING MUBARAK (LEAST LIKELY)

If the Obama administration were to turn its back on Mubarak, it could take a number of steps, including:

-- cutting off some or all of the $1.3 billion in military aid and roughly $250 million in economic assistance Washington gives Cairo annually;

-- demanding the United Nations Security Council take up the issue of Egypt's crackdown on the protesters;

-- condemning the crackdown in public;

-- telling Mubarak behind the scenes that he should go.

None of these seems likely yet, although the White House said on Friday: "We will be reviewing our assistance posture based on events that take place in the coming days."

If the violence were to worsen, or it were to become clear Mubarak had no intention of allowing political reform, analysts said the chances of a partial aid suspension would rise.

Cutting off such a long-standing ally could send a chilling signal to other U.S. allies that Washington cannot be relied upon and perhaps push them toward closer ties with others such as China or Iran.

Jon Alterman, director of the Middle East program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies think tank, on Saturday said the United States had limited influence.

"Trying to steer the actions of someone who believes his life's work may be crumbling before his eyes is a difficult proposition," he said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/ ... UU20110129

*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:44 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote: ...

Just noticed your post vanlose, from what i have seen this morning on twatter the appointment of a VP means abvsolutely sweet FA to the people on the street. the only thing thats gonna bring them off the street is an end to Mubarak's rule.

Honestly I get the impression he's already gone (not literally left Egypt yet). It just seems to me that something changed in the vibe from twitter and a couple of other feeds overnight. Mubarak is finished whether he realises it or not I reckon. It still might take some time, but he is gone.

What happens next will probably be a battle between international interests and Egyptian ones.


noted joe, i'm just posting some "analysis" 'cause it's fun. hopefully it'll be even funnier five months from now.

*

on edit: i think M naming Suleiman as VP is more of a gesture towards the big O and his gang on the hill, plus the posse in Tel Aviv. – "Egypt is in good hands" type gesture. – or better, "they" may have picked Suleiman for Mubarak. – i still think they spent most of last night figuring out how to ease M out of it and who to put in, plus that they wrote his "speech to the people" for him (same talking points from Billary, Ban Ki Moon, Sarkozy, Cameron, Merkel, and the Davos crews in a few hours).

*

^ ^ my2c.

*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:52 pm



*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:59 pm

Mubarak’s planning exile to Tel Aviv

29/01/2011 10:50:00 AM GMT

According to sources in the Egyptian Embassy in Tel Aviv, Israel is making preparations to welcome Hosni Mubarak into exile after Saudi Arabia rejected overtures.

http://aljazeera.com/news/articles/39/M ... -Aviv.html

*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby Occult Means Hidden » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:03 pm

Saudi royalty is shaking in their boots:

Saudi Arabia slammed protesters in Egypt on Saturday as "infiltrators" who seek to destabilize their country, while a a top Palestinian official affirmed "solidarity" with Egypt...

...That said, Saudi King Abdullah called Mubarak and "was reassured" about the situation in Egypt, the state-run Saudi Press Agency reported.

"During the call, the king said, 'Egypt is a country of Arabism and Islam. No Arab and Muslim human being can bear that some infiltrators, in the name of freedom of expression, have infiltrated into the brotherly people of Egypt, to destabilize its security and stability and they have been exploited to spew out their hatred in destruction, intimidation, burning, looting and inciting a malicious sedition,'" the news agency said.

Saudi Arabia "strongly condemns" the protest, it said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/01/29/egypt.middle.east.reaction/index.html?hpt=T2
Rage against the ever vicious downward spiral.
Time to get back to basics. [url=http://zmag.org/zmi/readlabor.htm]Worker Control of Industry![/url]
User avatar
Occult Means Hidden
 
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:34 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:03 pm

You're doing great vanlose.

I nicked heaps of the stuff from this thread to stick on my blog. Did another update this morning on Egypt:

update 6:

Well its a Sunday morning, this started 4 days ago, and I reckon its only a matter of time before Mubarak is gone.



Checking the twitter feeds this morning and it seems like something has given way, its one of those intangible things tho, could just be wishful thinking.



Right now the Egyptian people are organising Neighbourhood Watch type groups to protect private and public property from looting, they are organising checkpoints to check ID in places. In other places vigilante groups have formed to protect against Mubarak’s plain clothed thugs.

From Sharif Kouddous:

neighborhood watches in Zamalek, Mohandeseen, Dokki & other areas of Cairo. Very organized w shifts, checkpoints

Neighborhood watch very organized w shifts, checkpoints. Men of all ages w sticks, metal pipes, some guns maintaining order

Some have formed makeshift barriers in Zamalek streets. Men armed with metal pipes check people, cars going through.

Walking in Zamalek. Feels like a scene from 28 Days Later. Empty.
(Interesting observation – j)

That was from a few hours ago. Latest from Sharif:

My dad’s helping organize citizen checkpoints in Zamalek. Rumor army’s coming soon to secure area but no sign yet

My uncle is spending night in Tahrir. Saw him there this afternoon w/ his standard accoutrements: Egyptian flag & megaphone




Tharir Square may be the key – Midan Tharir or Liberation Square, renamed after the 1952 revolution. If the people can hold it there is no way they will be stopped. Its one of those symbolic things, like saving St Pauls during the London Blitz.

...

Finally this translation of the revolutionary manifesto, thanks to The Cynical Arab – Roqayah Chamseddine. (Her site has the original flyer too, check it out.)

During this critical time, while Mubarak is attempting to derail the Egyptians’ Revolution, we call on the National Coalition to stay firm on our demands:

1. Immediate resignation of Hosni Mubarak.
2. The creation of temporary National Gov’t comprised of the people who the Egyptians can trust. The former regime should be excluded from this Gov’t.

New Leadership Responsibilities:

- All political prisoners should be released.
– The accountability of the former regime in respect to policies towards: poverty and torture.
– Freedom to all Egyptians to form their own political factions without governmental interference.

Until all the above demands are met we call on all Egyptians to:

- Call for a general strike starting Sunday the 30th of January, 2011.
– Form a national group in all Egyptian communities to protect public welfare and to face anyone who tries to meddle and destroy our governmental (public) and privately owned properties.
– Do not give the previous regime (i.e Mubarak) and their cronies the opportunity to give a bad picture of this uprising and revolution.

Long Live The Egyptian Revolution

All freedom belongs to the Egyptians.

All sacrifice belongs to the homeland.


The links are in the original.

This thread is great, its fascinating to see the differences between the views from the ground in Egypt and the views from the power brokers elsewhere - they really don't seem to have a clue how to handle it, or whats going on.

This reminds me in many ways of Eastern Europe 20 years ago. I remember a spoken word piece by jello biafra at the time, warning of what might go wrong after the revolution and telling people to plan ahead for when it comes to their part of the world, specifically to stop the multinational interests moving in.

The sense I get from this uprising it something emergent - its very "open source", its generating worldwide attention and the people in Egypt seem to be thinking ahead. maybe someone even remebered Biafra's rave. :jumping: :moresarcasm

So far the only mention of El Baradei in Egypt seems to come from foreign media, tho he is there in Tharir square getting water cannoned with the rest of the population. There seems to be strong involvement from the Egyptian left and workers movements, as well as the "usual suspects" that the western media keeps focussing on.

They seem to only see this in terms of "El Baradei or the Muslim brotherhood" but I get the feeling something more could emerge from this.

If you look at Sharif Kouddous' twitter feed, perhaps an appropriate term would be that an "open source state" is emerging from the chaos, and its being driven by the protesters.

I think there will be "unknown" Egyptians rise to prominence after this, and thats where alot of the new national leadership might come from. As individuals step up in ways their previous life might never have allowed.

Thats my optimistic assessment anyway, what will actually happen is anyone's guess. Also if these 'unknown egyptians" do become prominent I''d expect the attempts by the west to get control will really focus on them, there could even be "agents" in there now taking that role. Tho I doubt it.

Just saw your vid post.

A nation in waiting - thats a little like what I meant by the emergence of an open source state.
Joe Hillshoist
 
Posts: 10622
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:45 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:08 pm

^^
was thinking the same last night when ElB "disappeared" and there seemed to be this vacuum – that the leaders well kind of rise organically out of this: proven by fire so to speak. hope they're good.

*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:10 pm

^ ^

one more thing though, as much as i remember 89 i also remember 91. really dark. the clampdown.

*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:31 pm

so, i was wondering what Doc Chomsky might have to say about all this and found these two videos.
the first is in six parts and i'm only posting the first.
the second i also posted in the Tunesia thread. – they're good.




*



*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:33 pm

I can barely remember 1991. Its a mish mash of drugs raves and at one point the Australian Rugby Union side winning the World cup. The coup was pretty full on tho. But ... I think thats what Biafra was referring to in his spoken word piece, not specifically maybe, but more the way the old power structures will fight back, and they will.

Every 20 or so years something like this happens. Must be sunspots...

The late 60s (no not just the hippies and what happened in the US), the late 80s early 90s, now this.

Anyway i reckon Mubarak is gone.

Thats it for him - its all over bar the shouting.
Joe Hillshoist
 
Posts: 10622
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:45 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:38 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:I can barely remember 1991. Its a mish mash of drugs raves and at one point the Australian Rugby Union side winning the World cup. The coup was pretty full on tho. But ... I think thats what Biafra was referring to in his spoken word piece, not specifically maybe, but more the way the old power structures will fight back, and they will.

Every 20 or so years something like this happens. Must be sunspots...

The late 60s (no not just the hippies and what happened in the US), the late 80s early 90s, now this.

Anyway i reckon Mubarak is gone.

Thats it for him - its all over bar the shouting.


gulf war I. [one of my worst days ever.]

yeah, M is gone, but Suleiman is pretty hardcore.

*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby vanlose kid » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:45 pm

3.22pm: ...

Reuters has a roundup of the following reactions from world leaders and diplomats:

British foreign secretary, William Hague

He [Mubarak] must seize this moment to make these reforms real and visible and to base them on the universal values that are the right of people in all countries.

We are working with our EU partners and other allies on the latest developments to deliver a clear co-ordinated message about our expectations of President Mubarak and in particular the need for him to take responsibility to deliver change. Peaceful reform not repression must be the way forward.


Jonas Gahr Stoere, the Norwegian foreign minister

Egypt has to embark on a process of reconciliation and these vast groups of people need to be given a clear vision of the future that is there for them – jobs, opportunity, education.

But we also see that fundamental rights is mobilising people to go to the streets, for the right of expression and the right of elections.

Dominic Asquith, British ambassador to Egypt

I'm struck by the variety of age, of class, of gender, [of the protesters] it's across the board, you can see it, you can see the variety of people there.

It's not, from my perception, religiously driven. This is not the Muslim Brotherhood.

Catherine Ashton, EU foreign affairs chief

I reiterate my call on all parties to exercise restraint and calm and I urge the authorities to immediately and unconditionally release all peaceful demonstrators from detention.

I also reiterate my call upon the Egyptian authorities to urgently establish a constructive and peaceful way to respond to the legitimate aspirations of Egyptian citizens for democratic and socioeconomic reforms.

The German foreign ministry

It is crucial that action quickly follows words. Commitment to political and economic reforms goes in the right direction, but must be implemented quickly and consistently. The security forces should not use violence against peaceful protesters.

Carl Bildt, Sweden's foreign minister

You can describe it as a demographic tsunami to the south of the Mediterranean that can only be met by sustained economic reforms.

It is now even more obvious that what Egypt needs is a political initiative that leads to an open and democratic presidential election later this year.

Salam Fayyad, Palestinian prime minister

There is no question, a lot of changes need to take place. If this process of change is managed well – and that begins by those in government not being dismissive of the desire for change given the high degree of dissatisfaction with the status quo.

The EU president, Herman van Rompuy, said the European Union was "deeply troubled" by the spiral of violence in Egypt. He said he hoped Mubarak's promises of reform "will translate into concrete action".

3.30pm: AP reports that at least three demonstrators have been killed around the area of Tahrir Square after thousands tried to storm the interior ministry. Their bodies were carried through the crowd of protesters.

The news agency now puts the death toll at 48, based on information from medical and security officials and witnesses. Of those, 41 have been killed since yesterday.

Egyptian intelligence chief, Omar Suleiman, is now vice-president
3.34pm: Mubarak has appointed his intelligence chief and confidante, Omar Suleiman, as vice-president, the official Egyptian news agency reports.

There has not been a vice-president since Mubarak took office in 1981. Mubarak held the post before he was appointed president.

3.43pm: Reuters has the following roundup of analysts' views on the continuing unrest:

Fawaz Gerges, professor of Middle Eastern politics and international relations at the London School of Economics

This is the Arab world's Berlin moment. The authoritarian wall has fallen – and that's regardless of whether Mubarak survives or not. It goes beyond Mubarak. The barrier of fear has been removed. It is really the beginning of the end of the status quo in the region. The introduction of the military speaks volumes about the failure of the police to suppress the protesters. The military has stepped in and will likely seal any vacuum of authority in the next few weeks. Mubarak is deeply wounded. He is bleeding terribly. We are witnessing the beginning of a new era.

Rosemary Hollis, professor of Middle Eastern policy studies at City University, London

I think it will take a couple of days to organise his [Mubarak's] departure if it happens. It's going to be a messy process and there will probably be some bloodshed. I don't think you're going to get into a situation where you have almost a war with the army on one side and the people on the other. The army has to decide whether it stands with Mubarak or the people. It's one of those moments where, as with the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, they can come down to individual lieutenants and soldiers to decide whether they fire on the crowd or not. Different soldiers and groups of soldiers may well make different decisions.

In some ways what we're looking at is what happened in Iran in 1979, but without [Ayatollah] Khomenei. These protests are much more leaderless. As with Tunisia – and with Iran in 1979 – what will probably happen is you get an interim government. The question is what replaces it.

Robin Niblet, director at Chatham House

If Egypt stepped in that direction [of political Islam] implications for Israel and Israel's security could be very serious indeed.

He [Obama] has to be incredibly careful about the message he sends right now publicly, whatever he says in private. I think the US government in part has to be in very close contact with the Egyptian military, now that they've been brought in to this contact by the president.

They are potentially the group that could tell Mubarak to go. It could potentially turn against him ... quietly and privately. A new government will have to undertake all of the social, structural changes ... so that economic opportunity is not trapped in the hands of so few.

Mark Malloch Brown, former UN deputy secretary general and former junior British foreign minister

[Egypt] has in recent years tried to combine a very limited political space with a much bigger social space, underpinned by a very widespread access to electronic media. That appears to have become the Achilles heel of the regime.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ja ... g#block-32

*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
User avatar
vanlose kid
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby DrVolin » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:46 pm

I just had a flashback:

"On 30 January 2008, news agencies reported Internet services were widely disrupted in the Middle East and in the Indian subcontinent following damage to the SEA-ME-WE 4 and FLAG Telecom cables in the Mediterranean Sea.[1] The damage to the two systems occurred separately several kilometers apart near Alexandria.[7]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_subma ... disruption

This was part of a mysterious wave of cable cuttings that affected North Africa, the Gulf States, Northern India and Pakistan. It looks increasingly like the region is undergoing its own 1848. Given the centrality of the net to these events, I wonder what relation there is, if any.
Last edited by DrVolin on Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

--Guns and Roses
DrVolin
 
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:19 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby Simulist » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:50 pm

The good doctor also has a good memory.

Right on, DrViolin — and good question.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
User avatar
Simulist
 
Posts: 4713
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:13 pm
Location: Here, and now.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Live: Al Jazeera coverage of Egypt’s growing revolution

Postby alwyn » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:15 pm

Joe Hillshoist wrote:I can barely remember 1991. Its a mish mash of drugs raves and at one point the Australian Rugby Union side winning the World cup. The coup was pretty full on tho. But ... I think thats what Biafra was referring to in his spoken word piece, not specifically maybe, but more the way the old power structures will fight back, and they will.



vanlose kid wrote:gulf war I. [one of my worst days ever.]
*


living in a school bus in friends back yards, that's how broke I was in the early 90's...I learned to live small then...

This is unprecedented, that the people can have a real-time peaceful revolution, while the world watches (or waits, according to the internet intercept!) Power to the people! Makes an old John Lennon fan glad!
question authority?
alwyn
 
Posts: 771
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:25 pm
Location: Laytonville
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest