What constitutes Misogyny?

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Project Willow » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:10 pm

norton ash wrote: Unless racist Christians men who don't know history and won't address prevailing sexist power structures or human sexuality are dominating the dialogue here.


FIFY, and I think it's spot on.

It's absolutely clear to me that with few exceptions the men who frequent this board thoroughly enjoy their differential power and accorded privileges and have no desire whatsoever to embark on examinations that might disturb their enjoyment. Some of them have expressed great distress at the very thought of such an examination. For me, this puts into question the sincerity of their expressions of support for social justice in other contexts. If a person is genuinely concerned with the objectification and mistreatment of other people, that should include women, otherwise he's just paying lip service to values that have no real home in his native feeling or intent.

Sexual politics here generally mirror the larger society and therefore comprise no challenge to it in any way. This venue is a boys' club where women's contributions are tolerated as long as they're diffused with conciliatory qualifiers, and aren't too angry. There's an unreasonable cruelty in requiring that oppressed people not express their anger at being oppressed. There's also an inherent cruelty in denying that an oppressed group is oppressed, but that issue was finally and thankfully addressed here to a degree.

Women have always been required to make themselves feel at home in hostile environments, part of that process involves banishing awareness. I think the only way I could maintain further involvement on the board is to interrupt that banishment process and approach this place at all times as enemy territory. It is most difficult to resist the urge to believe that talk about social justice extends to the status of my sex. I am easily fooled by expressions of compassion. Perhaps that's what makes the misogyny here more insidious than it might be in a right wing group, it wears an Obama-like mask.

Carry on boys.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Laodicean » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:15 pm

I think the only way I could maintain further involvement on the board is to interrupt that banishment process and approach this place at all times as enemy territory.


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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby brainpanhandler » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:32 pm

I've been debating never participating in a thread like this again. I'm perfectly willing to examine my underlying prejudices and biases, but I am doubtful that would be received well at all. It seems to me that an honest exchange between genders is being stifled. Am I the only one who feels this way? I'm just scared to say anything at all.
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby charlie meadows » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:43 pm

brainpanhandler wrote:I've been debating never participating in a thread like this again. I'm perfectly willing to examine my underlying prejudices and biases, but I am doubtful that would be received well at all. It seems to me that an honest exchange between genders is being stifled. Am I the only one who feels this way? I'm just scared to say anything at all.


"I've been debating..."
"I'm perfectly willing..."
"my underlying prejudices..."
"I am doubtful..."
"It seems to me..."
"Am I the only one..."
"I'm just scared..."

me, me, me...

All about you!

The atmosphere of narcissism is stultifying.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby compared2what? » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:00 pm

(off-topic)

OP ED wrote:...OP ED's wife...


Honestly, I could pretty much sit and smile at those words all day, they make me so irrationally happy.

____________________

Image

(Fortuitously enough.)

____________________

No, seriously:

OP ED wrote:...OP ED's wife...



GET OUT! You got MARRIED??? That's GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Congratulations, sweetheart. It so gladdens my heart to hear that news, it's just ridiculous, quite frankly. But there you have it. I can't find a good toasting image, for some reason. However, nevertheless:

Image

Here's wishing both of you each and every single felicitation, joy and blessing that life can bestow.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:17 pm

Wow! Tried to catch-up a while ago and managed to read up to its end, then on page 24.
Seems I haven't missed all that much... 'cept maybe the Op Ed's wife has a husband.

some things never seem to change, like men explaining why they are not whom they are.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby 23 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:55 pm

charlie meadows wrote:
brainpanhandler wrote:I've been debating never participating in a thread like this again. I'm perfectly willing to examine my underlying prejudices and biases, but I am doubtful that would be received well at all. It seems to me that an honest exchange between genders is being stifled. Am I the only one who feels this way? I'm just scared to say anything at all.


"I've been debating..."
"I'm perfectly willing..."
"my underlying prejudices..."
"I am doubtful..."
"It seems to me..."
"Am I the only one..."
"I'm just scared..."

me, me, me...

All about you!

The atmosphere of narcissism is stultifying.


Yikes!

Brainpanhandler reveals some vulnerability and admits to some things that a lot of men can't... and narcissism is detected in the air.

Double yikes!
"Once you label me, you negate me." — Soren Kierkegaard
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby brainpanhandler » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:29 pm

charlie meadows wrote:
brainpanhandler wrote:I've been debating never participating in a thread like this again. I'm perfectly willing to examine my underlying prejudices and biases, but I am doubtful that would be received well at all. It seems to me that an honest exchange between genders is being stifled. Am I the only one who feels this way? I'm just scared to say anything at all.


"I've been debating..."
"I'm perfectly willing..."
"my underlying prejudices..."
"I am doubtful..."
"It seems to me..."
"Am I the only one..."
"I'm just scared..."

me, me, me...

All about you!

The atmosphere of narcissism is stultifying.

The convention on the board is to use green text for sarcasm.
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Kate » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:30 pm

brainpanhandler,

I was formulating in my mind what I wanted to say in response to your honest remarks, and then was distressed to see that someone attacked you for them.

First of all, speaking carefully in the first person is actually a GOOD thing in a thread where there have been instances of projection onto others. Especially if one looks to avoid any kind of unnecessary argument, the best way to proceed is to say, "This is how it seems to ME" as opposed to "This is how it IS."

Therefore, I salute you for how you worded your comment, and how someone can come to the conclusion from a comment wherein you talk about your own perceptions (and ask others about them) that you are some sort of narcissist is beyond me.

I'm perfectly willing to examine my underlying prejudices and biases, but I am doubtful that would be received well at all. It seems to me that an honest exchange between genders is being stifled. Am I the only one who feels this way? I'm just scared to say anything at all.


Well, if I count in your estimation, I would do my damnedest to receive well anything you wrote about with the same kind of honesty you conveyed in THIS comment. So, is that enough?

I'm wondering why you think an honest exchange is stifled. There have been some interchanges where it seemed that there were hard feelings. I didn't feel it was my place to intervene in any way, so I just plowed ahead through (or around?) those interchanges to post about the things I believe. It didn't feel frightening to do that. Maybe others do "feel this way," and if so, I hope they respond to your question. For myself, I'm not afraid of stating what I believe to be true in my own experience. In addition to some friction here, there have also (by my lights) been some WONDERFUL interchanges.

I hope you will feel comfortable posting you own thoughts/experiences regarding the topic of misogyny. And if you perceive that an insult comes your way, you would have the choice to either respond to it or to "go around it" to continue conversation with conversational partners you enjoy communicating with more. I like very much the way you had the strength to verbalize your concerns. I'm sure there must be folks on this earth who wouldn't have that strength. So, you're certainly off to a good beginning.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby charlie meadows » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:13 pm

brainpanhandler wrote:The convention on the board is to use green text for sarcasm.


brainpanhandler,

Colour me unconventional.

No need to withdraw. Love is a battlefield.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby compared2what? » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:39 pm

charlie meadows wrote:
brainpanhandler wrote:The convention on the board is to use green text for sarcasm.


brainpanhandler,

Colour me unconventional.

No need to withdraw. Love is a battlefield.


Fixed.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Kate » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:04 pm

Thanks, bph and c2w!

Having been registered here only two months now, I had been seeing green text sprinkled hither and yon throughout the forum, but I couldn't figure out if it had a meaning other than as an alternative way to highlight text.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby compared2what? » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:31 pm

brainpanhandler wrote:I've been debating never participating in a thread like this again. I'm perfectly willing to examine my underlying prejudices and biases, but I am doubtful that would be received well at all. It seems to me that an honest exchange between genders is being stifled. Am I the only one who feels this way?


I very much hope that you already know that you're not.

I'm just scared to say anything at all.


You wouldn't be if you perceived that someone else's voice was being stifled in approximately equivalent circumstances when there was something you thought that you could do about it, though.

Which I also very much hope you already know, naturally. Because (a) I sure do, simply as a function of observation and experience; and (b) one logical corollary of that knowledge is that functionally speaking, you do actually have the option of not being scared to say anything at all, should you wish to avail yourself of it.

That's always useful to realize, I find.
____________________________

Also, I apologize to you for the Greening of Charlie Meadows, Charlie Meadows.

What I meant to say was:

It is, of course, very natural to assume that if you can comprehend the plain literal meaning of what you read, you can also understand it in a more substantial way by recurring to whatever default frame of reference has generally proven to be an appropriate and reliable one for that purpose in similar and/or analogous conditions.

Just about everybody does that from time to time, to a greater or lesser extent, and it's neither a sin nor a flaw nor anything to be ashamed of, therefore. However, in this particular instance...

charlie meadows wrote:
brainpanhandler wrote:I've been debating never participating in a thread like this again. I'm perfectly willing to examine my underlying prejudices and biases, but I am doubtful that would be received well at all. It seems to me that an honest exchange between genders is being stifled. Am I the only one who feels this way? I'm just scared to say anything at all.


"I've been debating..."
"I'm perfectly willing..."
"my underlying prejudices..."
"I am doubtful..."
"It seems to me..."
"Am I the only one..."
"I'm just scared..."

me, me, me...

All about you!

The atmosphere of narcissism is stultifying.


...I think that there must have been some kind of spanner in the works of the process whereby you reached the above-quoted conclusion, which I encourage you to locate and rectify if it's not too effortful to be worth the trouble.

I mean, if I had the first clue as to what might have gone wrong, obviously, I'd tell you. But moot point. Because (although clearly, I can really only speak for myself here) from the perspective of at least one reader who's familiar with the body of posts by brainpanhandler as a whole, that conclusion is just so very, very badly mistaken that it might just as well have dropped from the ceiling along with a wooden duck when Groucho said the secret word as it might have been the product of some kind of reasoning process, as far as that one reader is concerned.

My apologies again for doing the shorter snarkier version first.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Kate » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:39 pm

Hava --

I just now finally finished reading the article you posted here, "Enemies Within: Informants And Misogyny On The Left" and I thank you for it. When I first came across it I was in the throes of migraine and couldn't concentrate, but now I'm glad I went back to it.

First for the personal reaction: I think I've been pretty lucky for the most part in activist organizations through the years. A couple of decades ago, the head of a national coalition to end the death penalty I briefly dated treated me pretty badly, but I quickly concluded it was his active and all-consuming alcoholism which was the problem.

HOWEVER, there are two guys at a twice-monthly meeting I attend when I can who seem dedicated to getting me to shut up (interrupting, trivializing, ignoring, etc.). What I've been trying to figure out is whether their consistent rudeness is gender-based or disability-based.

Now, to leave the question of personal experience aside, I think the article supports the notion that misogyny is a fundamental form of a sick, abusive, authoritarian mindset, and that whenever the message is given that it's "OK" to lord it over any target group or sub-group, treating the target as "lesser than," the social organization suffers from the effects of that toxicity throughout the whole body. It's the same fundamental "I-am-entitled-to-have-POWER-OVER-and-CONTROL-you" dynamics at work in misogyny, racism, heterosexism, and the assumption of every authoritarian state.

I'm glad, too, that the article you posted contains names of women activists who have written on this subject, becomes some of them I'm not familiar with, and now I can seek out their writings.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby charlie meadows » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:22 am

compared2what? wrote:Also, I apologize to you for the Greening of Charlie Meadows, Charlie Meadows.

What I meant to say was:

It is, of course, very natural to assume that if you can comprehend the plain literal meaning of what you read, you can also understand it in a more substantial way by recurring to whatever default frame of reference has generally proven to be an appropriate and reliable one for that purpose in similar and/or analogous conditions.

Just about everybody does that from time to time, to a greater or lesser extent, and it's neither a sin nor a flaw nor anything to be ashamed of, therefore. However, in this particular instance...

...I think that there must have been some kind of spanner in the works of the process whereby you reached the above-quoted conclusion, which I encourage you to locate and rectify if it's not too effortful to be worth the trouble.

I mean, if I had the first clue as to what might have gone wrong, obviously, I'd tell you. But moot point. Because (although clearly, I can really only speak for myself here) from the perspective of at least one reader who's familiar with the body of posts by brainpanhandler as a whole, that conclusion is just so very, very badly mistaken that it might just as well have dropped from the ceiling along with a wooden duck when Groucho said the secret word as it might have been the product of some kind of reasoning process, as far as that one reader is concerned.

My apologies again for doing the shorter snarkier version first.



c2w?,

I prefer the shorter snarkier version to the needlessly bloated explanation. I addressed my post above to brainpanhandler, and he understood some to most of my sentiment immediately.

I didn't colour the text in my post above 'green' because it wasn't exactly sarcasm.

What are the colours for irony, satire and tragedy?
Last edited by charlie meadows on Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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