What constitutes Misogyny?

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby hava1 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:35 am

I found the same in Israeli "radical left" and always thought its a local problem, which is why I enjoyed reading this piece.

AS for larger issues, I am worried that the misogyny card is soon going to be played hard and mean to justify more US export of values to the ME. I saw a little early bird in AD's posting about the Egyptians...we are hearing it all over.

That connects me to the problem on this board/thread as well, with the dynamic of "who is more enlightened", it serves male dominated good old warcraft. From Bush (they hate us for our treatment of women") to CLinton I guess, and in my circles, the enlightened are turning their efforts now to...transforming Egypt's status of women. And I am quite positive that feminist activity is gearing up in Iran :).

Misogyny is bad, but using it as a stick is not a solution. We had a really hillarious scandal in Israel, still happening, with the Sociology and GENDER department in the Hebrew U. Apparently, while they were all busy there writing about language misuses, and gender sensitivity, the department was run as a Turkish HArem, with a few professors sexually exploiting their PhD candidtaes and other female students. The female feminist Professors, knew that of course, and assisted the HArem, in various ways (silence, silencing, colluding, enticing, pulling strings sucking to the male colleagues and so forth). I think we were able to see the "feminist pimps" :), namely, those who assume that position to gain power, and in fact their superior sensitivity is just a coin in the old game.

I found out that often people prefer to engage in preaching when they feel very guilty not "doing the right thing" in their turf, where their interests can be jeopordized....

However, having said that, where would we be without this activity, the trial and error, the wrong and right attempts to "raise consciousness" ?

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby compared2what? » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:52 am

charlie meadows wrote:c2w?,

I prefer the shorter snarkier version to the needlessly bloated explanation.


Me too, actually. I'm just temperamentally pro-choice. However, thanks for the validating feedback.

I addressed my post above to brainpanhandler, and he understood some to most of my sentiment immediately.


You betcha. And then I addressed a post to you, followed by a post addressed partly to brainpanhandler and partly to you!

So: No arguments here. Basically.

I didn't colour the text in my post above 'green' because it wasn't exactly sarcasm.

What are the colours for irony, satire and tragedy?


Red, white and blue?

(Sorry.)

In truth, while I like the question very much, I can't say that I know the answer. I do know what time it is when an elephant sits on the fence, though. If that's any help.

ON EDIT: Hey! What happened to the "long time, no [Spoiler:c}?
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:24 am

Breastfeeding Women Viewed as Less Competent
Tuesday 22 March 2011
by: Tom Jacobs | Miller-McCune | Report

A study emerged out of Oxford University last week suggesting babies who are breastfed end up doing better in school. Yet despite such well-documented benefits for both mother and child, the percentage of American breastfeeding women remains “stagnant and low,” according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Why are only one-third of American mothers exclusively breastfeeding at three months, and only 43 percent breastfeeding at all at six months? Perhaps because they’ve gotten a sense of how harshly they are being judged.

Research just published in the journal Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin (“Spoiled Milk: An Experimental Examination of Bias Against Mothers Who Breastfeed”) reports mothers who breastfeed are widely viewed as less competent than otherwise identical females. This disturbing finding was obtained in three separate studies, one of which also found breastfeeding is a handicap for women hoping to be hired for a job.

“Importantly, we did not find evidence that gender of the participant influenced perceptions of the breastfeeding mother,” notes the research team led by Montana State University psychologist Jessi L. Smith. Women, it seems, are just as likely as men to hold this bias.

In one experiment, 30 students told they were engaging in an “impression formation study” were given biographical information on actress Brooke Shields, including the fact she had just written a book about motherhood. Half were told the volume included information on her “experiences with breastfeeding, bathing and overall care of a newborn;” for the other half, the word “bottle-feeding” was exchanged for “breastfeeding.”

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Afterward, the participants answered a series of questions gauging their overall assessment of the actress. Those who read she was breastfeeding her baby viewed her as “significantly more warm and friendly compared to the bottle-feeding mother, but significantly less competent in general, and less competent in math specifically,” the researchers report.

In another experiment, 55 students were told they were participating in a study of how people form impressions of others in the face of limited information. They were asked to judge a woman they got to know by listening to her telephone answering machine.

Specifically, they heard a message in which a man talks about changing the time of their dinner date. The rest of the message varied: Some participants heard a neutral conclusion, while others heard a reference to breastfeeding (“I figured you would want to go home and breastfeed the baby”), motherhood (“I figured you would want to go home and give the baby a bath”), or sexuality (“I figured you would want to go home and change into your strapless bra”).

The breastfeeding woman “was viewed significantly more negatively compared to the neutral voicemail on all measures of competence,” Smith and her colleagues found. The woman in the strapless bra was also labeled as less competent, suggesting that the bias faced by breastfeeding woman “is similar to the once experienced by a woman for whom the breast is sexually objectified,” the researchers add.

Asked if they would hire this woman for a job, the participants gave the lowest ratings to the breastfeeding woman — even below that of the woman with sexualized breasts. Interestingly, the woman giving her baby a bath was not penalized in this respect, suggesting it isn’t parenthood per se that makes her less desirable as an employee.

Rather, the culprit seems to be the mental image of her breasts, whether they’re being used as instruments of sexual allure or infant nutrition.
“A woman may not breastfeed because of worry over how she will be evaluated by other people,” the researchers conclude. “Data from the current project suggest this worry may be warranted, to the extent that breastfeeding is a devalued social category.”

Smith and her colleagues suggest that health professionals should “teach pregnant women about the sexism they might encounter” when they choose to breastfeed. In terms of society as a whole, they argue the only way this bias will diminish is for more women to breastfeed openly.

“More visible breastfeeding mothers should prompt people to wrestle with and debate the issues,” they write. “With time, greater numbers of women who breastfeed translates to less prejudice.”

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby compared2what? » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:40 am

From my inbox:

charlie meadows wrote:"I do know what time it is when an elephant sits on the fence, though. If that's any help."

Time to decide that no fence is needed?

"ON EDIT: Hey! What happened to the "long time, no [Spoiler:c}?"

Well, I stayed up late and I was really tired and I overslept and I was late for the bus, but fortunately it was late so I caught it on time so to speak. And I was really thankful that I made it so I was just sitting there thinking about all of the great things that have happened to me, and how there are others less fortunate than me, you know, so I wanted to apologize to Nordic because I really didn't mean to say those things about him and I just wanted him to know that I really love him and OP ED too. And even Stephen, and I'm not trying to be coy here, he might have had something to offer here, except that he didn't understand that this thread is not about him or the laws that have been passed, because those laws have only been passed because there is a reason for the misogyny in the first place, and where was I... oh yeah... Groucho Marx and You Bet Your Life... yeah right... oh yeah... Simplify. Simplify. I edited it because it's better just to say one thing at a time, or to say less rather than more, and just what is necessary to communicate the information that I am trying to communicate. It's better not to make people read a whole bunch of unnecessary information just to show that hey I'm really here, I have feelings, and I've suffered. I mean why not use just one word when 1000 words will do just as well, and hundreds and hundreds of people will read them, and reread them--my words.

Simplify. That's what I'm about really.

Does that answer your question? Or let me put it another way... Or maybe not. Oh, well, I think I've made my point perfectly clear. Although, you're entitled to think differently if you really want to.

I hope that makes it clear to you.


Yes. And in the further interests of clarity, I'd like publicly to reiterate the "thank you" that I already sent you, as well as to add a "for your candor" to it. Plus, what the hell, I'll even throw in an additional point of clarification for you at no extra charge:

You know that "P" in "PM"? It stands for "private," not "personal." You and I have no personal relationship. More specifically still, I'm neither your bitch nor your punching bag.

Please be advised that by posting to a public message board, a private person (such as yourself, let's say, or maybe me, it doesn't really matter which) is effectively inviting whatever public response any damn person who reads his or her publicly posted remarks feels like making to their substance, style, form, tone, content or other material features and aspects. However, he or she is not a public figure and has not implicitly, expressly, effectively or in any fucking way consented to being personally abused or harassed by random strangers. And your uninvited and abusive personal attentions are entirely unwelcome to me.

You are entitled to think differently if you really want to. Furthermore, you're also entitled to share those thoughts by expressing them to interested (or at least tolerant) others whenever and wherever you both can and may. If you really want to. What you're not entitled to do is personally abuse or harass people who haven't invited your attention in that form and don't welcome it.

I hope this makes that clear to you.
_______________________

Double-plus bonus clarification: Almost all run-on sentences are long sentences. Many of them are also bad sentences. Neither of those general rules has any bearing one way or the other when it comes to determining whether any long sentence is either a run-on sentence or a bad sentence. The former is syntactical distinction and the latter a question of taste, about which there is no arguing.

I hope that you're as happy to learn that as I am to know it.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby charlie meadows » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:55 am

As brevity is the soul of wit: I'm sorry.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby norton ash » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:32 am

You know when you're in a restaurant and there's a table of eight women and things are pretty quiet, and then they all explode in laughter at the same instant and it's like a bomb went off and you're so startled that you spill your coffee?

I fucking hate that.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:09 am

norton ash wrote:You know when you're in a restaurant and there's a table of eight women and things are pretty quiet, and then they all explode in laughter at the same instant and it's like a bomb went off and you're so startled that you spill your coffee?

I fucking hate that.


or you know when you're walking down the street and it's peaceful and you're feeling personally empowered for whatever reason, enjoying the sun on your face and thinking about your future when a carload of men drive up, slow down, honk, and cat call thereby jarring you back to earth and North American culture and all those positive feelings you had only moments ago are replaced by feeling like you did something wrong just by just being there and being young and female?

Of course you don't.

But I fucking hate that.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Laodicean » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:16 am

Canadian_watcher wrote:
norton ash wrote:You know when you're in a restaurant and there's a table of eight women and things are pretty quiet, and then they all explode in laughter at the same instant and it's like a bomb went off and you're so startled that you spill your coffee?

I fucking hate that.


or you know when you're walking down the street and it's peaceful and you're feeling personally empowered for whatever reason, enjoying the sun on your face and thinking about your future when a carload of men drive up, slow down, honk, and cat call thereby jarring you back to earth and North American culture and all those positive feelings you had only moments ago are replaced by feeling like you did something wrong just by just being there and being young and female?

Of course you don't.

But I fucking hate that.


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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby norton ash » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:21 am

Sorry, forgot to include the green text for our more deadly serious readers.

Dontcha just hate flying these days? No wait, that one's really not funny anymore...
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:23 am

Laodicean,

Image

Image

EDIT: ahh, I just saw your bolded text. I specifically wrote "north american" because while I'm well aware that this behaviour is prevalent most everywhere I do not like talking out of my ass and since I was never a young woman in any other culture, I was simply being accurate. :)
Last edited by Canadian_watcher on Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:24 am

norton ash wrote:Sorry, forgot to include the green text for our more deadly serious readers.

Dontcha just hate flying these days? No wait, that one's really not funny anymore...


Oh.. another good one! You're so funny. I should just lighten up.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby norton ash » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:31 am

If you can't recognize any joke at all in someone using the word 'hate' because he spilled his coffee, which makes him a petty aresehole, in an effort to steer things jokingly back on topic after the fraught personal exchange directly above, then I guess I've failed everyone, CW.

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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:47 am

norton ash wrote:If you can't recognize any joke at all in someone using the word 'hate' because he spilled his coffee, which makes him a petty aresehole, in an effort to steer things jokingly back on topic after the fraught personal exchange directly above, then I guess I've failed everyone, CW.

If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution.


Okay I can see that you really aren't understanding the finer points here, which is excusable since you haven't spent your life knowing (yes knowing) that because of your biology you are automatically less than. I'm going to try and be very soft and feminine about this, since it seems to work well for another poster here (which is just another level of what I'm about to say but anyway...)

The joke you made about a table full of women bursting into laughter beside you and making you spill your coffee was typed here, by you, for a reason. Right? Something made you think to say that.

Since I was reading along and seeing a bit of a scuffle between a couple of posters, I inferred, perhaps wrongly, that your cryptic joke meant to illustrate that there was an interruption in 'the peace' that proceeded the scuffle. Now, I might be incorrect, but I hope I can be forgiven for that. You see, when people pop in to threads and make jokes that perhaps are 'inside' jokes or perhaps need the reader to have lived the life of the poster and understand the cognitive connections, experiences and education that went in to formulating that joke in the first place misunderstandings are certain to occur.

You're smart and thoughtful, so I'm sure you understand what I'm saying but if not please ask and I'll try again. I can be unclear at times and right now I've got something else on my mind so do feel free to ask for clarification.

Anyway.. being that there can be misunderstandings arising from the situation I've described above, you might consider that what *I* took from that joke, at that placement in this thread *might* be seen to be another sexist slam, since you did choose to describe a jolting shock in a manner that portrayed a group of women (when you could easily have chosen men.. or dogs) as a 'gaggle' of sorts (which is offensive) and hysterical (which is offensive) who often shock you into doing something clumsy. And it seemed to also be a pointed joke, aimed at a woman or women in this thread given your choice of subject (a group of females) for the joke.

Perhaps I am oversensitive, but then maybe your comment was undersensitive? I'm not saying that it was, and I'm using this to try and make a point that applies to each and every poster here, myself included.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby norton ash » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:22 pm

Sorry you misunderstood. I was just being ridiculous, extemporaneous and vague, trying to parody a lame Seinfeld-style observational joke, most of which tend to feature the word 'hate' and most of which are dumb and petty.

But the female-laughter explosion in the quiet restaurant really happens. It's kinda wondrous and life-affirming when you think about it, once you've mopped up your coffee and your pulse has returned to normal. I couldn't hate anyone for laughing.
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Re: What constitutes Misogyny?

Postby wallflower » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:35 pm

There seems wide agreement that this thread was needed and overdue. And there seems to me a tacit agreement that the subject is difficult and such that threads on the subject will be problematic.

I wondered today what the opposite of misogyny was? Looking up "gynephilia" I see that it's used in the context of sexual preferences. I'm not sure that love and hate are really opposite terms. I'm not sure who it was, but locate an observation made in my moral education as a child that love and hate are not opposites, but rather that the opposite of love is indifference. That's perhaps a little cloying, but the point that love is precise but not able to be defined seems an important point. Hatred may not be a snap to define, but because it's a negative emotion with particular objects it does seem definable ways that love seems elusive to definition. It's easier to point out what's wrong than it is to specify what's right. I'll hasten to add that misogyny seems wrong to me.

One way that the concept of misogyny relates to the concept of sexism is that misogyny it the root cause--or theory--for sexism; that is, sexist doings provide evidence of misogyny.

It's hard to convince guys whistling at a beautiful woman on the street that their behavior comes from deep-seated misogyny because certainly in most instances the motivation for the whistles feel like they come from a place of love and admiration.

My college degree is in elementary education. The subject matter of studying for an education degree is intensely interesting to me. But basically I hated school as a kid and that contradiction really pressed on me as the student teaching part of the program loomed. Had I been smart I would have shifted gears and tried to apply my credits towards another degree. I didn't do that and in fact tried teaching elementary school for a while. Ah, what I hated about school as a kid I still hated as an adult. My hatred wasn't at all directed at kids. There's a ring of truth to "I love children" but a shock of horror at pedophilia. Loving kids, at least for me, has to do with feeling delight in how they engage with and try to make sense of the world. Loving kids has to do with how much they have to show about what it is to be a human being. It also has to do with a deeply held urge to protect them from harm.

Adults having sex with children is contrary to love. An important aspect of relationships between adult men an women is intimate sexual relationships. Sex can be an expression of love. But taking misogyny as a concept utterly corrosive towards the experience of being human, the concept of gynephilia certainly is not the antidote for misogyny.

It's easy to point to sexism. What's less easy is making the case that sexist behaviors stem from misogyny. Nevertheless, that causal connection is widely held. The thread title is: "What constitutes Misogyny?" It's not unreasonable to hold that misogyny is what causes sexism, although the problem with that is sort of construction is it is circular. I'm not sure that the data presented of sexist behavior will ever lead to a more fully developed idea of what constitutes misogyny.

Jeff locked the thread on misandry. I'm down with that, there's too much hatred. But since this thread is still active, it seems that attention towards what hatred is might be more productive than a litany of sexist doings. We're sensitive folks, so catcalls directed at a woman walking down the street are easily identified as asshole behavior. We know that in the gut, but to get to the constituents of misogyny it seems to me we have to try to explain why catcalling is bad and not just point to catcalling as evidence for misogyny.
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