Libya, Obama, and Empire The Anti-Empire Report

[ninakat]

Well, of course he's not really black.... you know, in terms of representing the true interests of African-Americans. Glen Ford and The Black Agenda Report have been all over this fakery from the start, fortunately. But average Americans (i.e. the brainwashed/propagandized) see what they want to see, and hear those soothing words of hope and change. Forgive them, for they know not what they do.



Obama Signed Secret Libya Order Authorizing Support For Rebels
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/3 ... 42734.html

[Nordic]

More people NEED to ask the obvious: why isnt the US targeting Yemen, Bahrain, etc for doing the same thing?

Oh, they're asking it. And they already know the answer. People aren't THAT stupid.

For some reason you seem to be expecting CNN to be asking it.

[Occult Means Hidden]

I saw non-violent protests topple the oppressive regimes of Tunisia and Egypt. I saw them make gains in Libya. Then suddenly they hit a brick wall. Snipers took out peaceful protesters from hilltops and fighter aircraft dropped bombs on innocent people. The danger of a failed revolution is that the people become more scared then they were before the revolution. It's a greater consolidation of power at the top. That can't be acceptable. The Libyan people deserve freedom like any other people. If they are beaten down and forced to submit, then they are forced to live without freedom for that much longer. They should be helped to achieve that goal. Hippie shit isn't going to universally work.

Simply, if I had the full force of the US military at my disposal i would use it to help the Libyan people. Gaddafi is certainly an EU/US creation. Ok, great...

And yeah, at this point we've bankrolled both sides of the conflict. A "liberal" consistency of foreign policy would mandate never giving support to oppressive regimes. Hell i'm such a liberal that I wouldn't even have diplomatic relations with monarchies like Great Britain. This is what non-compromise is. It is never supporting oppression and always supporting the people. Even if it's by a means that is evil = the American military. It's only a means to an end.

Seemslikeadream wrote:

the man beating the shit out of an innocent man was being banked rolled by me for the last forty years....

anyway I've never touched a gun in my life and I don't prop up murderers, so sorry charlie does not commute

I know the history, SLAD. Doesn't mean a situation can't be used as a means to an end. All what your comment means is that there is a need to destroy tyranny in the United States as well. That's a position I can support. The analogy still stands as far as i'm concerned.

[seemslikeadream]

The Devils We Don't Know: Who is the Libyan Opposition?
by Ted Rall
Hi. You don't know me. See that big guy over at the bar? I'm going to pick a fight with him. Wanna back me up?

That's what we, the American people, are being asked to do in Libya. We're not picking sides. Picking sides implies that we know what's going on. We don't.

Give George W. Bush this: he respected us enough to lie us into war. Obama wants us sign a blank check, no questions asked.

"We do not have any information about specific individuals from any organization that are part of this [war]," Hillary Clinton said on Meet the Press. "But, of course, we are still getting to know the people [rebels] leading the Transitional National Council [TNC]."

"Of course."

This was over a week into the war.

I don't know what's more frightening. That Secretary of State Clinton expects us to believe that the U.S. government is fighting, spending, killing--and soon, inevitably, dying--for a cause it doesn't know anything about? Or that she may be telling the truth.

For all we know the Libyan TNC, also known as the National Conference of the Libyan Opposition, is composed of and led by noble, well-intentioned, freedom-minded people everyone can get behind. But that's the point: we don't know.

Obama's defenders say he's different than Bush. Look! No cowboy talk! He got an international coalition! Even the French are on board!

Big deal. Hitler had a coalition too. Which also included the French. Remember how, after 9/11, we got a history lesson about Afghanistan? Remember "blowback"? Remember how Al Qaeda came out of the anti-Soviet jihad of the 1980s? How, if it hadn't been for the U.S. and its CIA, Osama bin Laden would today be working for his dad's real estate development business in Saudi Arabia? The last thing U.S. policymakers should want to do now is replicate the 1990s, when they had to tramp through the Hindu Kush, buying back Stinger missiles from the Taliban. Incredibly, in Libya today, the U.S. may be crawling back into bed with a bunch of crazy Islamists.

Who are the Libyan opposition? We have few clues. From what we can tell, the TNC is apparently a peculiar alliance of convenience between monarchists and Islamists. One TNC leader is the pretender to the throne. The TNC uses the flag of the former kingdom deposed by Kadafi.

Western media outlets ridiculed the Libyan dictator for blaming unrest on Al Qaeda. On February 25th CNN's Paul Cruickshank reflected this official line: "Militant Islamists have played almost no role in the uprisings in Libya."

How much changes in a month.

As bombs were raining down on Tripoli, military officials began to concede an open secret: eastern Libya has long been a hotbed for Muslim extremism. "Al Qaeda in that part of the country is obviously an issue," a senior Obama official told the New York Times on condition of anonymity. NATO military commander Admiral James Stavridis admitted to a Senate hearing that there were "flickers" of foreign fighters affiliated with Al Qaeda and Hezbollah presence among anti-Kadafi insurgents.

Constitutionalists to return to the Founders' original intent. They say Congress, not the president, ought to decide whether or not to go to unleash the military. Obama didn't even bother to get the usual congressional rubber stamp for this latest invasion.

But never mind Congress. War should be voted upon by the citizenry. After all, we--not Congress--bear the costs. If a president can't be bothered to explain why we should kill and be killed and spend billions of dollars on a conflict, too bad for him and his pet defense contractors.

Starting with Obama's carefully calculated conflation of civilians and insurgents, everything about Obama's Libyan war stinks. The U.N. has authorized military operations to protect "civilians." How, no matter how likeable they are, do Libyan rebels armed with anti-aircraft guns qualify as civilians?

So reminiscent of Bush during the run-up to the 2003 attack on Iraq, this current fear-mongering campaign employed the obvious tropes. What if there are massacres? But there weren't any. What's next--WMDs? Hillary cites Kadafi's "history and the potential for the disruption and instability" as casus belli. Funny, Moammar's history didn't bother her in 2009 or 2010--when her State Department had full diplomatic relations with his regime. As for the "potential" of "disruption and instability"--aw, hell, that could happen anywhere. Even here. "If Jeffersonian Democrats take over in Libya, he's a hero," Robert Borosage of the Campaign for America's Future said of Obama. "If he gets stuck in an ongoing civil war, then it could be enormously costly to the country, and to him politically."

Which outcome would you bet on?

[8bitagent]

Well, you guys seen the latest news? The rebels have been humiliated and beaten so badly, they've all been sent running back to Benghazi. So much for all that US and NATO air support and money spent.

This is proving to be a total disaster, and I fear the US and NATO might get desperate and start bombing Tripoli, killing untold numbers of civilians in the process.

For those who support the war effort, my only question is this: Isn't it simply sending the rebels to their death and making Ghadafy look stronger? It's brilliant really. He's switched the tanks out for the same beat up white trucks the rebels use, pushing the rebels out on the road and from cities...flanking them from the front and the side in the open desert, and now is awaiting US and NATO to start heavy bombardment so he can parade out all the civilians that will undoubtably be killed. The US and NATO once again will be embarrassed and suckered deeper and deeper into a regional conflict. And no doubt, we will start hearing reports of jihadist elements co-opting and moving in.

The rebels, gosh bless them as I do like and support them, are coming off as rejects from the recent UK comedy Four Lions. They're clowns who cant even load a weapon. Today they held an RPG backwards and almost blew up a bunch of civilians. They dont belong on a battlefield, and Im not sure why the US thinks they'll win.

Again, Ive long had a theory that the true elite suckers the US into these wars to BOG them down. Think about it. What did the US gain in Iraq and Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia, China, BP, and other European, Western and foreign companies made zillions, as did American PMC's and construction. But overall the US government and military just looked evil and stupid.

Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya...I suspect all are designed to ensnare the US further and further into the sands of an empire killing...NOT an empire maker, as activists have claimed. America is simply an easy to control puppet...but of whom?

[Occult Means Hidden]

For those who support the war effort, my only question is this: Isn't it simply sending the rebels to their death and making Ghadafy look stronger?

I guess this is directed at me. I only support a staunch version of idealism that I know our leaders do not posses, even though it's often in their words. Apparently even many of our liberal commentators don't posses it either. It's an idealism that is anti-thetical to accepted reality and past experience. There can be a fine line between good intentions and evil making. Especially as the unforeseen rears its ugly head and may very well end up sending rebels to their death and making Gaddafi look stronger.

The rebels, gosh bless them as I do like and support them, are coming off as rejects from the recent UK comedy Four Lions. They're clowns who cant even load a weapon.

Because many of them are just regular people. I know William Blum and Ted Rall would prefer us liberals take the Republican talking point and accuse many rebels of being terrorist sympathizers because it is a way to criticize Obama over Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen and Pakistan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42352231#42352231

"Emotions strained as Libyan rebels struggle" / "Tearful Libyan Rebel: We Want Freedom". via link.

We don't know who the rebels are because they're just merely bands of people.

This sucks though:

TNC is apparently a peculiar alliance of convenience between monarchists and Islamists. One TNC leader is the pretender to the throne.

That element certainly needs to be stamped out.

[8bitagent]

For those who support the war effort, my only question is this: Isn't it simply sending the rebels to their death and making Ghadafy look stronger?

I guess this is directed at me. I only support a staunch version of idealism that I know our leaders do not posses, even though it's often in their words. Apparently even many of our liberal commentators don't posses it either. It's an idealism that is anti-thetical to accepted reality and past experience. There can be a fine line between good intentions and evil making. Especially as the unforeseen rears its ugly head and may very well end up sending rebels to their death and making Gaddafi look stronger.

The rebels, gosh bless them as I do like and support them, are coming off as rejects from the recent UK comedy Four Lions. They're clowns who cant even load a weapon.

Because many of them are just regular people. I know William Blum and Ted Rall would prefer us liberals take the Republican talking point and accuse many rebels of being terrorist sympathizers because it is a way to criticize Obama over Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen and Pakistan.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42352231#42352231

"Emotions strained as Libyan rebels struggle" / "Tearful Libyan Rebel: We Want Freedom". via link.

We don't know who the rebels are because they're just merely bands of people.

This sucks though:

TNC is apparently a peculiar alliance of convenience between monarchists and Islamists. One TNC leader is the pretender to the throne.

That element certainly needs to be stamped out.

Oh I agree the "rebels" just seem like regular young guys and family men. Sadly, they've become the latest lightning spear to delight neocons and neolibs alike.
I am all for the toppling of un-democratic regimes, especially in places like Saudi Arabia(and yes, even Iran) I'm just curious what the real end game here is. I'm sure one part of the game
is to embarrass Obama and America. As a critic of Obama and American policy, some might be puzzled as to why I'd say that. But I think Obama serves dual roles: Besides pacifying the left and bringing false hope, he seems to be both continuing some of the Bush doctrine yet also serving as a whipping boy for the right. Kind of a strange dynamic, but I'm sure we'll be hearing soon about how "al Qaeda has coopted the rebel movement", and see Libya fall into a failed state.

I didn't know Rall was making Republican talking points lately. I met Ted Rall at an underground comic convention of all places. He was the only guy within earshot not laughing at me when I started bringing up 9/11 stuff, as he himself knows all about the ISI and all this Afghanistan shenanigans. All the other stupid college liberal kids with their anti Bush/anti Iraq war publications thought *I* was off my rocker for even questioning 9/11, including the guy behind some political action documentary company. Tom Tomorrow and Ted Rall, along with the guy who does Boon Docks have consistently anti authoritative comic strip artists. I'm only so-so impressed with Doonesbury these days, though perhaps Trudue is just tuckered out. If I was doing a political comic strip, I'd probably end up being removed after a week:)

Btw, Tom Tomorrow has a definite anti Obama strip pretty much exposing the hypocrisy of the current US/NATO action in Libya.

[8bitagent]

edit: Awww...ok I see now



I'm sure the PTB will MAKE this scenario happen to embarrass the US, as the ol "blowback" thing is popular.
But yeah, I agree that the rebels just seemed more like scared, wits end every day idealists than anything remotely "jihadist".

[seemslikeadream]