Martial law in New Orleans

by **Dreams End** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:47 am

Human...THAT was an incredible find. If you had published the pics here yourself rather than linking, I would have assumed that you were making it up...it's more blatant than even I would have expected.

by **greencrow0** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:46 am

Just finished watching 2 hours of CNN on the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Let me say one thing. It is NOT going to work busing all those folks to Houston and holing them up in the Astrodome. It won't work from the standpoint of the environmental refugees which is what these people are and it won't work from the standpoint of the people of Houston. The refugees do not want to live in a huge detention building which is what the Astrodome will turn into. This will be just another trauma piled onto the trauma they and their families have endured. They want to go to a home setting and be able to cook and look after themselves. The people of Houston do not want 25,000 strangers in their midst for months causing a huge humanitarian, sanitary and resource problem. Just think about the amount of water that they will just having showers and laundry, just for one thing. Honestly, I just don't think people can think logically in the US anymore...I don't mean to be patronizing or nit picking or anything but anyone can see that this plan is stupid. The better solution would be to have these people billeted all over the United States. Each state offer to take so many and divide them up according to the size and resources of the state. Then that state is responsible for picking them up and billeting them or providing them with housing until the situation in New Orleans and Mississippi clarifys. Do I have to do their thinking for them? C'mon FEEMA, get your brain in gear and come up with a common sense plan based on the needs of the people. NOT the white people latent FEAR of poor blacks.

by **greencrow0** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:58 am

Of course FEEMA could use the Astrodome as a staging area to disburse the refugees throughout the United States. They could tell the People of Houston that this will just be a gathering place and a centre of communications for the refugees, a place for them to get connected with their missing family members if possible and to communicate with their relatives and friends throughout the US to see if they can broker their own 'place of refuge' until they can return to New Orleans or find a new place to live. So going to the Astrodome is not a bad idea in and of itself...but NOT as a permanent place like until February as some on the news has suggested...and it should be made clear right from the start that this is only a temporary staging area.

by **Dreams End** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:22 am

More tragicomedy: The first bus to make it to the Astrodome just pulled up. Only, authorities decided it wasn't actually FROM the Superdome. It was a "renegade" bus (their words.) Not sure if they are taking them into the Astrodome, but there have already been many refugees turned away from the Astrodome who arrived their earlier on their own steam. Let me repeat: the people who evacuated when ordered to are NOT being allowed in the Astrodome. CNN reporter did not know where they were going to go.

by **Starman** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:51 am

What the FUGG is the GD story with the so-called 'renegade' bus -- somebody apparently had the plain common-sense and took the initiative to load up a buncha people, including a lot of kids, on a vacant bus and drive the 350 miles to the Houston Astrodome which is where people who have been blasted by Katrina are being TOLD they could recieve emergency services???? Just earlier today, a FEMA or other officials said 'we're going to have to think outside the box on this -- everything is on the table.' Seems to me, that's exactly what the people who arranged the bus-ride did -- Some basic do-what-ya-gotta-do, see-a-need-and-fill-it. The bus driver should get a damn medal -- How many hours have I seen busses in NO just parked while people were waiting, while the situation keeps getting more dire? What a STOOOPID 'issue'. I just don't see the big deal. Some miscellaneous DKOS comments on accountability and 'looting' from: <a href="http://cindysheehan.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/31/15223/8460">cindysheehan.dailykos.com...15223/8460</a> The Republicans were right They said if Al Gore won the election we'd be paying more than three dollars a gallon for gas. He did win the election. We are paying more than three dollars a gallon for gas. LOL And they said if Kerry won, the stock market would tank. Kerry won, and the stock market has been steadily going down. "The people of this country, not special interest big money, should be the source of all political power." Paul Wellstone You Gotta Love The Priorities Of Fox News... With New Orleans under water, what does Brit Hume have on his show tonight? A University of Virginia Professor, who's with the CATO Institute, on the show to say that in NO WAY could increased occurences of Hurricanes be related to Global Warming... by Rimjob Sign of Bush's agenda Everyone in America should know about the Bush priorities: From the 6/6/05 New Orleans CityBusiness: In fiscal year 2006, the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is bracing for a record $71.2 million reduction in federal funding...The cuts mean major hurricane and flood protection projects will not be awarded to local engineering firms. Also, a study to determine ways to protect the region from a Category 5 hurricane has been shelved for now. But, this made it into the Bush budget: - $200 million for a one-mile span linking Ketchikan, Alaska, with Gravina Island. (Currently, fifty people live on Gravina Island -- "they reach Ketchikan by taking a seven-minute ferry ride.") Certainly republican senator Ted Stevens had a hand in this also... by jgaleza Ben Blake on CNN at 3:20 PST -- reporting critical situation in NO, lack of communication, National Guard has lost control, no evident evacuation plan or coordiantion -- people wandering around through flooded streets with NO information about where to go or what to do -- stories of bodies and rampant looting, gunfire heard. utterly appalling. Another picture to check out... ... is this one. <<a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/31/141724/708>">www.dailykos.com/story/20...41724/708></a> Excuse the diary pimping... but it's kind of a stark illustration of the relative priorities of our two political parties. by Malacandra Lets' all address the nation too! ACTION ALERT! As weathercoins mentions below, Bush will necessarily address the nation with his own bias. So it's only fait game to try and balance it with ours. We all have an angle to attack Bush on his handling of our environment, national guard, preparedness, etc. Let's flood the media with these converging points of view! Check these tips to Write Letters to the Editors <<a href="http://spaces.msn.com/members/whatcanwedo/Blog/cns!1pv3BxJLDNJM3zaEKMKu3ujA!158.entry>">spaces.msn.com/members/wh...158.entry></a> that have more chances of getting published (the tips include a link to the Media Database to find local papers to target), and fire away! And feel free to bookmark these tips and pass the link around, too; they'll be useful again. Don't just complain, Take Action <<a href="http://spaces.msn.com/members/whatcanwedo/>.">spaces.msn.com/members/whatcanwedo/>.</a> by cyrilb Bush's Talking Points: Unified in this tragedy/grief/crisis Most destructive/Biggest tragedy/superlatives galore! Give minor props to the local officials/little people. Gloss over why the immediate federal/FEMA/Homeland Security response was lacking. Make huge fuss over the speed and size of the federal response.(days late) Resist urge to mention freedom, democracy, 9/11 and why nature hates us. Fail to mention the enormous amount of money siphoned off to fight in Iraq. Make promises that are comfortably ambiguous. Make promises that will be underfunded. my personal favorite Make this predictable event something that has taken us by surprise. Peace with Honor by Fabian You forgot... Link it to congressional Democrats. Link it to Saddam. By Bulldawg WTF? <a href="http://www.wonkette.com/politics/ap/index.php#finding-versus-looting-123124">www.wonkette.com/politics...ing-123124</a> **** (Me again -- Starman) Another so-called 'news reporter' asshole -- O'Reilly on The Dactor -- trying to pump-up a 'them' and 'criminal element' aspect, also 'urban menace' -- I'd like to see O'Reilly's 'civilized' manners after living hand-to-mouth with no water, food, shelter, or job or ANYTHING, loss of hope and self-respect. I'd bet O'Reilly would be driven to a ruthless self-serving opportunist much sooner than he'd ever think possible, IF he even thought he is even capable of losing his inherant dignity. Many of the people looting are probably so overcome by the sheer scale of this disaster that their sense of futile hopelessness and desperation becomes profound -- what might begin as a search for something edible and something to drink and a blanket or a dry shirt, turns into something different, when they find themselves in a situation where everythingis 'free' for the grabbing -- Many, probably MOST of the people now refugees are chronically poor and so they have NO sense of being equity stake-holders in society, they are surplus-negative debtors; The looters in NO aren't even thinking clearly, they apparently have NO access to critical information and so don't realize the utter seriousness of their situation, they're gonna have to evacuate, and so they aren't gonna be able to take more than a small bag at MOST with them anyway -- and too, a LOT of people are probably gonna have to be forcefully evacuated. O'Reilly (the Idjit) even suggested some 'criminal element' had deliberately planned to stay in order to exploit the collapse of law and order -- presumably so they could rob and steal, while having no means to go anywhere with their new-found riches. Good GAWD I can scarcely believe the FUBAR idiocy and unpreparednessand lack of coordination and downright lack of common-sense; I STILL can't understand why a couple (at LEAST) heavy-lift helicopters haven't been directed on-scene, or directed by FEMA authority from offshore suppliers or logging/construction companies, to drop a couple dozen flatbed railroad cars into the breeched-dike holes to STOP THE FLOODING! That has ALWAYS been a priority -- Instead, the engineers have been frustrated by lack of roads and ship-access to get construction equipment onsite. Stories about small-towns with NO communication about supply distribution, police aren't in contact with anyone and so can't pass on messages -- Incredible lack of communication, simply unconscionable. Large Portable pumps brought and placed in position -- surely the drilling industry has suitable equipment FEMA could commandeer. Ya know, they wouldn't hesitate to commandeer your pickup or tractor or shotgun or camping gear -- Stories of people queing for hours on rumours of fuel sales, which they desperately need for generators and for their trucks and cars, for transport and rescue -- only to be stumped by lack of electricity for the pumps -- well, what about rigging some mechanical pumps? Like, DuH??? Or isn't there anybody smart-enough to rig the pumps to be bicycle-chain driven? Or are they too concerned with accurate metering? That just shows how technologically-addled we are -- having lost all sense of how to get by, or how to improvise and manage without the convenience of electricity we've become so dependant on. In many ways, we've become the servant to the thing we mastered. Price-gouging by gas-stations -- I've seen (on news stations) $6 gas in Atlanta -- That's just criminal, what's the difference between the 'looting' that Blitzer and O'Reilly are so enflamed about, while they deny the far-greater crime of criminal negligence and misfeasance of the unprepared, inefficient 'officials', esp. the whole Bush Cabal. Chronic lack of effective resupply and information for stranded NO refugees crawling out of flooded poor neighborhoods, with no water or medical aid or food for people in desperate circumstances. NO didn't use their fleet of school busses for forced evacuations all day Sunday, when they KNEW the storm was baring-down -- and the busses were all parked where they were SURE to be flooded if the levee breached -- talk about a DOUBLE fuckin' stupidity! ALL of the major people-transport vehicles should have been used to bus folks out, even tractor-trailor vans. Instread, look how many vehicles are now disabled and many trashed. WHY couldn't FEMA have distributed fuel-coupons to allow folks who didn't have money to be able to fuel-up and evacuate? Now, all those personal vehicles are severely damaged if not junked. And WHY didn't the city send-out fleets of police and military with bullhorns, warning people of rising water when they KNEW the levee had broached Monday afternoon, since the people had NO idea of how serioius or how long it would last -- untold thousands of people probably drowned when thewaters kept rising and they kept climbing to upstairs rooms and finally their attics, where they then had NO exit. What a horrible, heartbreaking tragedy. And what's this about boiling water? With NO fuel, and God knows WHAT poisons that NO amount of boiling is going to make safe? And NO flood-free command center for communication and inter-agency cooperation? Especially the sheer misplaced inanity of being 'outraged' by looting -- since most of the property is already ruined, and it's just stuff. But armed robbers -- now that's a whole 'nother thing. As Jeff Goldblatt on FOX said, 'desperate people do desperate things' -- the sheer terror and anxiety the people must be feeling is impossible to fully understand, but I get a sense of it. And on Van Susterin's On the Record, she interviews an officials who clearly stated everyone KNEW the levees were only designed for a slow-moving Category 2 or fast-moving category 3 Hurricane, yet everyone also knew a Cat 4 or even 5, one of the biggest storms ever recorded, was bearing-down and likely to hit almost two-days in advance -- EVERY effort to pre-position sufficient emergency levee-repair equipment and materials should have been mobilized and put on immediate standby in case they were needed. Same with getting emergency freezer-vans ready to repack with frozen-foods from major food-warehouses and stores, rather than have it all spoil -- which happened when the electricity failed. And at the earliest instance when the long-term unviability of the Superdome's support-system became apparant, immediate contingency evacuation-plans should have been started. What in FUCK have FEMA and Homeland security been preparing FOR, anyway? The eventual catastrophic failure of the NO levee was NOT an unknown -- there's simply no excuse. This should have been looked-at hard and prepared-for. I simply can't believe that there weren't any officials who were assessing needs in the more obscure sectins of the city -- like abandoning them entirely. Unbelieveable. And on the bridge-scene -- cop cars just rolling-by, with NO communication or organization at all, while people are just wandering, shell-shocked, filthy, exhausted, no-doubt dehydrated and hungry. THIS is the 'best' that we can do to look after each other? If anything shows the utter unconcern of the elites and officialdom with the 'masses', the disaster which is the Drowning of New Orleans shows it plain and simple. Can you imagine if all the refugees were desperate, suffering anglo middle-and-upper class, would all the officials just blithely have driven-on by? And couldn't FEMA have used their authority to organize urgent food-and-water/liquids and equipment/clothing retrieval from area stores rather than allow, or tolerate, unregulated (and wasteful) theft, OR depend on incoming shipments? I mean, there's just so much inefficiency here and lack of common-sense. Hadn't anyone planned and considered what happens when social-support breaks down, how to provide necessary structure and order? Clearly, the people are in over their heads and need to know how to cooperate in aiding their survival and best-interests. With all the many people wandering around not knowing what to do, couldn't they have been organized into some constructive service-providing activity, even scrounging necessary medical and relief supplies or aiding rescue services? I mean, people HAVE to pitch-in collectively, and many people were doing that on their own, but for many others ... there's evidently something about our mercenary system that fosters a helpless dependency and inability for many folks to help themselves and others. Its a helluva characteristic of our exploitive capitalistic system that has been conditioning people to be consumers and employees in a larger system, where their roles are given to them. I just heard -- relief officials are saying they need clean underwear and socks - there must be TONS of such clothes in the local stores. Some more KOS comments: An excellant thread: <a href="http://cindysheehan.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/31/15223/8460">cindysheehan.dailykos.com...15223/8460</a> New Orleans has sunk It's hard to believe the scope of the disaster in New Orleans. I'm watching CNN and the commentator is moaning about looting? What the hell thousands could be dying who gives a crap about things. Save the people forget about the CRAP!! "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" by Blutodog * You're forgetting the basic underlying fear of white peoples: lawless minorities running amok. Particularly african-americans looting, that really gets attention on the idiot box. Not stranded seniors. Now if those seniors where to be accosted by (minority) looters...then we'll have a different story. by jsavimbi * Talk about 'looting' meant to villanize victims The more they talk up the looting, the more it becomes about what bad people these are anyway, and how they deserve less sympathy. If you ask me, saving stuff from becoming uselessly waterlogged is called salvage. by NYFM * i agree these people have nothing. they were unable to get out. they know that they need something to barter with in the very near future. but are they mentioning federal and local officials "looting" the local office supply stores for routers and other equipment? the law gives them the power to do that in order to help in rescue efforts. or how about the looting by N.O.P.D. officers? i say the other looters are trying to rescue themselves by any means necessary, seeing as how the local, state and federal gov't can't get a handle on the issues going on down there. i for one can't say that i wouldn't loot, too. relativism. it's a bitch. BiblioSquirrel: I'm a librarian. I find things. This is where I bury them. by sanantonerose * Food, clothes, blankets, sure, but cd players, tvs and other non-survival stuff is looting and it isn't right and we ought not defend it. When all else fails...panic by David * I want you to get stressed out... (none / 0) and then go without everything but food, water and shelter and tell me how you fare. by Bensch * survival -- you don't seem to understand. i don't think these people are intent on keeping it for themselves. instead, they will use these goods to trade for other necessities -- necessities that the quicker, faster, and more able "looters" got to first. they see anything within grabbing distance as "survival" stuff. there are plenty of things that we ought not do in a situation such as this. and again, i wish that this sort of looting was not occuring. but the situation is dire and people are in a panic. i saw one report where one couple were staying in their flooded out houses and refusing help. why? why would people choose to stay even as rescue boats pass them up? they don't trust that they'll be any better off. they don't trust the authorities. why? now that's a big ought not to. years of instilling fear of the system. BiblioSquirrel * are you joking. i hope you're joking. do you really think their stealing tv sets so the can trade them for foodstuffs? by NolaSaint * maybe, maybe not. why do think people are taking stuff? disagree with me, that's fine. but i'm requesting a larger conversation about why people are "looting" and refusing help from the authorities. BiblioSquirrel: I'm a librarian. I find things. This is where I bury them. <<a href="http://bibliosquirrel.blogspot.com>">bibliosquirrel.blogspot.com></a> by sanantonerose * I'm guessing it reflects the emails they get .You know Americans are probably swamping CNN offices with emails about "the looting" because of the sad fixation with seeing their worst fears about poor blacks confirmed for their own superiority complex. That's just one theory of course, but I am sure many of us have thought it. I voted for John Kerry and don't regret it. SHED THE UNREALITY! by diplomatic * Yes, and the looting sucks. Looting for water and food and supplies makes a hello of a lot of sense, that's for sure... But, c'mon, folks, looting jewlery and other such items is quite sickening given the circumstances. Not, it's not the most important issue, but it sure in hell ain't helping things right now... I did not receive $ from Ketchum, U.S. Department of Ed or HHS to write this---though I wish I had. by Volvo Liberal * And, worse, The looting is causing the re-allocation of security forces... It ain't good... None of thisis good... I did not receive $ from Ketchum, U.S. Department of Ed or HHS to write this---though I wish I had. by Volvo Liberal * Looting!! When Baghdad was being looted Bu$hco didn't give a shit!! Now it's a BIG deal? I can't even believe the coverage? Lotting who gives a shit?? Thousands maybe tens of thousands of PEOPLE are at of risk of dying and all these MSM bastards can whine about is looters?? What a bunch of assholes! "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" by Blutodog * Now that's a great point. Looting in Baghdad = ok Looting in New Orleans = bad That deserves its own diary... Brilliant point. I knew I loved this place for some reason... I did not receive $ from Ketchum, U.S. Department of Ed or HHS to write this---though I wish I had. by Volvo Liberal I hear from Don Rumsfeld that freedom's messy. by elmo * And it's hard. ...It's hard. 9/11 was the Neocons' Reichstag fire. "Patriot Act" = Enabling Act. by Bulldawg * Looting or Finding? Interesting in the photos when it's deemed looting or 'finding' <<a href="http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=38725768&size=o>">flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne...68&size=o></a> by MarcusWoollen * exactly, or "commandeering" BiblioSquirrel: I'm a librarian. I find things. This is where I bury them. <<a href="http://bibliosquirrel.blogspot.com>">bibliosquirrel.blogspot.com></a> by sanantonerose Yes what folks are you talking to? I don't really see anyone at Daily Kos defending the looting of jewelry or sneakers, etc. I only saw some excuse it for food and water. The question above was more about why the media was covering it and one reason could just be that for SOME in America the sight of rampaging groups of black people stealing stuff is actually more scary than a Hurricane itself. I voted for John Kerry and don't regret it. SHED THE UNREALITY! by diplomatic * Looting is important. It shows that law and order have completely broken down in New Orleans (and that civilized behavior has completely broken down in some people.) If armed National Guard troops are need to keep people from ransacking hospitals and interfering with the rescue/recovery, that's news. by ArkPanda * Yes. Are you trying to convince me? Because I don't see where I personally said it wasn't important to cover looting. I voted for John Kerry and don't regret it. SHED THE UNREALITY! by diplomatic * Jewelry and TV's can always be used to barter for water and food. It's trickle-down economics at a different level. Same goes for booze, diapers, clothing and guns. Especially guns. With a gun you can barter for almost everything. The looting is irrelevant at this point. The city is done for and all those bsinesses will file for a total loss anyways. Might as well let those people have at it. by jsavimbi * Yes yes yes. The people you see looting have nothing left to hold on to, their lives and houses and everything they had is gone. Can we fault people for trying to grab something, anything, of value as some sort of possession? The stores are going to be fully covered by insurance anyway. I say: give it all away, and let the security be used to save lives. Worrying about somebody taking a TV when it's about to be underwater is just the epitome of missing the forest for the trees. by dnamj * If you have a gun you're not going to be doing much bartering. by Gpack3 * think about this -- you're dirt poor. you have nothing. you are not able to travel out of the area. you have no money. yes, food and water are a priority. but so are items that may be worth $$$ for trade. do i wish this type of looting was happening? of course not. but i'm not gonna sit in judgement of these people while i navel gaze in front of my $2000 computer at my nice job in a dry area. BiblioSquirrel: I'm a librarian. I find things. This is where I bury them. <<a href="http://bibliosquirrel.blogspot.com>">bibliosquirrel.blogspot.com></a> by sanantonerose * armed gangs looting -- Gives the word 'looting' a whole new spin. Some people looking for food and water is one thing. But armed gangs ransacking houses and businesses is rancid anarchy. Peace with Honor by Fabian * The Looting is Going to Be Nothing Compared... to the $$$$ that will be removed from our pockets by the gas/oil barons. "We're all working for the Pharoh" - Richard Thompson by mayan * And both are wrong by Volvo Liberal * *** Idiocy on top of idiocy on top of idiocy, interspersed by some remarkable feats of great heroism and selfless sacrifice, uncounted thousands of people driven to extremes of desperation and fear, incredible suffering and tragedy, and remarkable stoic endurance marred by reported incidents of thuggish violance -- CNN's Paula Zahn just interviewed an official who commented on the many astonishing instances of ineptitude and innapropriate response -- esp. with little to no coordinated rescue of people stranded in the poorer section of town, with people forced to slog their way, from toddlers up to oldsters in walkers, through incredibly foul, reeking, pestilential chest-high water, then spending a day or more waiting for something on the overpass bridges -- we're getting up to 72 hours since Katrina hit fer Chrissakes! And the levee STILL isn't repaired, and who knows HOW many thousands of people are still stranded in their homes, god only knows WHAT they're doing for water. The disease potential is simply huge, and to not be aggressively helping people avoid these serious known dangers is just unacceptable. This is sounding a LOT like the horror-stories in the alternative press about the worst part of the Hurricane Andrew area of devastation entirely roped-off and the people made to fend for themselves -- I never knew what to make of that report, it sounded TOO cruel to be true, but now, I dunno ... Seems there's a similiar kinda story occurring, not just in NO but how many other poor gulfcoast communities? I can't, don't EVEN wanna go there, to seriously think this might have been a deliberately-caused HAARP-created storm-disaster for a hidden, sinister agenda. The tragedy is too great already. PS: More CNN complaining of lawlessness and 'rampant crime', 'shocking' etc. Can't they see that extreme poverty and desperation is driving this, and the perception that people are on their own, they've been simply left to fend for themselves? It's like a free-fire anything-goes zone. Isn't gas price-gouging just another form of looting? And recall Rumsfeld saying the looting in Baghdad is because 'freedom is messy'. Why was it acceptable in Baghdad, but not New Orleans? The 'law and order' meme is being pushed by the same PTB that violate international laws and Geneva and Nuremburg codes and humanitarian principles at-will, exploiting and killing and committing genocide around the world, betraying and enslaving American citizens, committing torture and other unconscionable atrocities. The hypocrisy is thick enough to cut with a knife. Bush's guitar 'moment' -- what a fitting image, 'Nero fiddled while Rome burned'; Bush strummed while New Orleans drowned ... There was a good DKOS comment re: getting a photo of that incident and paying for full-scale ads. Too much. Starman

by **antiaristo** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:34 am

Some perspective from the Guardian Leader But the real suffering is of ordinary people. Life is hard in the delta. These are low-income parts of the US. The poor blacks and poor whites who suffered most this week are likely to have the hardest task rebuilding their lives, not least because they are the most likely to be uninsured. Increasingly too, these regions depend on tourism, but tourists could stay away for many months until the reconstruction - a term with unhappy resonance in those parts - kicks in. This disaster may be only the start of grim times. Corruption is commonplace in the affected states. And, just when the victims most need the support of the federal government, they find themselves dependent on one that is least inclined to accept its responsibilities. <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1560317,00.html">www.guardian.co.uk/usa/st...17,00.html</a>

by **Sepka** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:04 am

local officials were saying that had Washington heeded their warnings about the dire need for hurricane protection, including building up levees and repairing barrier islands, "the damage might not have been nearly as bad as it turned out to be." In 2002, per their published budget (the most recent one that's online), the City of New Orleans' Operating budget ( <a href="http://www.bgr.org/budgets/neworleans/2002/operating_expenditures.htm">www.bgr.org/budgets/newor...itures.htm</a> ) was $549,886,266. They had $9.0M to spend on 'Recreation'. $7.7M on 'Parks'. Presumably that's an average year. Their Capital Improvements budget ( <a href="http://www.bgr.org/budgets/neworleans/2002/capital_budget.htm">www.bgr.org/budgets/newor...budget.htm</a> ) was $74,627,540. Out of that, they spent $4.0M on Recreation projects - a swimming pool, a Tennis Center, etc. Another $1.5M went to golf courses (counted for some reason as 'Parks' rather than 'Recreation' projects. Again, that's presumably an average level of expenditure. That's roughly $20 million a year right there, to build, maintain and operate golf courses, pools, tennis courts, and the like. They've got the money to take care of things like that, but unless "Washington" (i.e., the rest of the country) pays for it, there's not enough to do anything about urgently needed flood control? It's unfortunate that their SELA funds got cut. They certainly had the finacial base to step in and take some measures to protect themselves, though. Maybe they did, but it sounds from what's already been said here that they didn't, preferring instead to wait for someone else to pay for the flood control projects. Had they perhaps budgetted a bit less for golf courses, and a bit more for levees, they'd be in better shape today. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=sepka>Sepka</A> at: 9/1/05 4:12 am

by **robertdreed** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:06 am

Warning: I switch back and forth between sarcasm and striaght talk in this message. It's going to take some allowance for that in order for my message to be fully understood. To make it easier, I'll add italics for the sarcasm part. Yeah, all the City of New Orleans would have had to do was lay off all the parks and recreation personnel and close every park, playground, public tennis court, and public swimming pool in the city, and they could have assumed the cost for $20 million, or about 10% of the needed levee repairs. In other words, they could have made up about 1/4 of the $71.2 million shortfall resulting from the 40% of the Federal money that had been diverted to the brand-new phony Homeland Security boondoggle. <a href="http://www.phxnews.com/fullstory.php?article=24745">www.phxnews.com/fullstory...icle=24745</a> I don't know how much engineering you're up on, Sepka, but here's a clue. Protecting 60%- or 90%- of the levees against disaster, and quitting, makes even less sense than constructing 60% or 90% of a bridge, and quitting. The cities of this country have already been starved by the revenue sharing allotments of this country, due to the country club ingrates who do so much of the deciding on where the money goes. Now, we just lost New Orleans. That's one of the biggest port cities in the nation, and a legendary tourist attraction. Every visitor to New Orleans I know loved the place, and they loved the people. And you act as if it's just one big welfare sponge. You know what I mean. $20 million for "parks" and "recreation"...children can play all sorts of places. Are there no vacant lots? Are there no alleys? And think of all those other spending spree cities out there on the banks of the Mississippi...let Vicksburg buy its own heavy equipment and pay for its own levees, I say.  Bean counters can be some of the most heartless people in the world- especially when they're counting someone else's beans, and it's just an abstraction to them. Please watch out for that tendency. That isn't an indictment of capitalist thinking, by the way. Marxist bean counters can be just as bad. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 9/1/05 6:42 am

by **Sepka** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:00 am

Don't fall into the trap of believing that a project is useless unless it's all done at once. The project wasn't one to build an entire levee system from scratch. The project was one to upgrade and extand an existing system. That can most assuredly be done a bit at a time, as was in fact being done. Work like that isn't one huge, all or nothing project. It's a number of small, related projects, some more urgent than others. The Army Corps of Engineers spent $2M last summer to shore up a levee, then another $125K to raise a settling one. That's the kind of little jobs that fit together to make a large flood control project. Diverting some money from neighborhood parks, from golf courses, from the tennis center, could indeed have financed a lot more of those projects, and kept the city safer. It may or may not have been enough, but it would have been better than sitting helplessly waiting for the Feds to foot the bill. Nor do parks instantly disappear if their operational funding is cut. There's a minimum maintenance level on the existing facilities, which is quite a bit less than it takes to keep the park in full operation. The greenspace can be kept mowed and open to the public for much less than the ordinary full operating cost of the park. That doesn't even address the issue of capital spending on new parks facilities. And I've not asked any of them, but I'm willing to bet that those people in the SuperDome would gladly give up their neighborhood swimming pools for a few years if it would bring back the city. Of course, I'm also willing to bet that these same people would have reacted with outrage had it been suggested last summer that they sacrifice recreational spending in THEIR neighborhood to finance a vital safety project for the whole city.

by **ZeroHaven** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:36 am

Remember when we were all wracking our brains trying to figure out what "emergency" all those white trucks were preparing for? We thought it was going to be a bomb or something.. Austin or Houston.. right? Oh my god I feel sick now. <img src="http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/ZeroHaven/tinhat.gif"/>

by **robertdreed** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:24 am

That's a reasonable reply, Sepka. But I think that the way that responsibility has traditionally been apportioned, maintenance of navigable waterways is much like the Interstate highway system, a Federal project requiring Federal money. Specifically, the Army Corps of Engineers has long been entrusted with planning, construction, and maintenance of the navigable waterways. And what a mess of pork barrel projects that's been, more often than not, unfortunately. A lot of Federal billions have gone into manufacturing eco-disasters like unnecessary dams, and worse, "channelization." A lot of that pork goes back to the 1960s and 1970s when Dixiecrat Congresspeople like Mendel Rivers and Wilbur Mills ran Committees like Appropriations and Ways and Means. In the late 1970s, as the result of trying to slash some of those pork barrel projects in the Fed budget, Jimmy Carter fought his first domestic battle with Congress- many in his own party- and he lost. The levee stuff is about the most unassailable stuff the Corps does for the waterways. I'm glad that my local Congressman, the late Robert Matsui, had enough pull to keep the levee repairs well-funded in the Sacramento area. We're a richer region than New Orleans, but we can't afford to fit much in the way of massive earthworks projects in our budget, either. Like New Orleans, Sacramento is an international port city, by the way. New Orleans is so poor that as of the late 1980s-early 1990s, they were only paying their police officers about $18,000 per year to start. What gets to me is this: "First Bush convinced the House to cut $20 million out of $37 million that was supposed to go to Louisiana's coastal restoration and flood control. Then, to add insult to injury, we read in The Times-Picayune that Bush is against giving coastal states up to $500 million a year out of royalties from oil and gas drilling off our coasts. Coastal states generate more than a quarter of the oil and gas consumed by the United States, but Bush opposes the Senate's plan to share that income. Inland states now collect 50 percent of royalties from oil, gas and coal mined on federal lands within their borders, but apparently President Bush doesn't think Louisiana deserves the same treatment." From <a href="http://corrente.blogspot.com/2005/08/buhcos-flood-for-oil-leaky-levees-and.html">corrente.blogspot.com/200...s-and.html</a> The Gulf Coast states are the poorest states in the Union. Their coastline hosts the natural resources, and they bear the environmental risks and costs- but they aren't supposed to get royalties? That's elementary fairness. That anyone could be opposed to this...tell me I'm dreaming. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 9/1/05 8:46 am

by **Dreams End** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:29 am

I thought about the trucks to, Zero, but given how there seemed to be NO supplies coming in for the first 72 hours...those white trucks must have either contained something else or been bound for somewhere else. Starman, great rant. I was just getting ready to say "keep putting this out there" but I have a feeling LOTS of people are going to be "putting this out there" and probably in some impolite ways. But they are only a bunch of looters, anyway, so who cares. Here's a brief list of things I didn't see. It's repetitious with Starman, but if anyone DID see these things, let us know: 1. Airdrops of water and food. We do this all the time in other countries. They didn't even do this at the Superdome as far as I know. 2. Airlifted chemical toilets. Only practical for the Superdome, but could have been done. 3. Police with bullhorns before the waters rose too far (Starman's point) announcing where to go, what to do. 4. Helicopters with PA systems (if you live in a major city, you know these are common...used to hear them all the time in LA) announcing where to go...this is the most perplexing. That Fox News guy was on the air PLEADING for someone to come to exit 235 on I-10 and tell the people where they needed to go for help. He even showed a little boy that looked almost dead from deyhdration. Police cars and national guard vehicles drove by but did not stop. ONE helicopter...ONE....could have covered most of the affected area easily with announcements about where people should be going to get out. 5. Prepositioned equipment. Starman covered this...but it needs to be in the list. Levee equipment, equipment for debris removal, safely parked buses, WATER trucks. I know no one could have predicted more than 2 or 3 days out exactly where it was going to hit, but put the damn things 50 miles inland in Mississippi and you are close to any of the likely landfall areas. As it turned out, the hurricane simply wiped ALL of it out. 6. Government aid arriving BEFORE private aid. I think a couple airlines arrived and brought some supplies. Sure, they got some publicity out of it, but the also took out a couple hundred refugees. Hey, where were the round the clock military plane landings going on? Evidently not in New Orleans. I would have been ecstatic if some fat general had gone on CNN to talk about how many "sorties" they'd flown into New Orleans to get people out. 7. ACTUAL IMAGES OF ROVING BANDS OF ARMED LOOTERS. Now, I assume that there was, in fact, looting of non-necessities. If you are students of the Bible, you'll know the concept of the "jubilee year." Once every 50 years (I think) all debts are forgiven. This is as close as it gets. And I'm sorry, though I would never shoot anyone to do it, if my city had been needlessly destroyed, I'd take whatever the fuck I felt like as a downpayment on my future. 8. ACTUAL IMAGES OF LOOTING that were not primarily comprised of people coming out of groceries and drug stores...which should have simply been disrtibuting food anyway. 9. Images of police looting. Heh...lots of reports...no images so far. 10. Images of a single red cross vehicle or Fema vehicle. (Surely these are out there...but just haven't run across any yet.) Feel free to add to this sad list. Michael Parenti continually cautions against the "incompetence theory" of history. Our leaders have put us in a bad way simply due to lack of intelligence. Great talk show fodder, but he suggests it rarely works this way. Keeping this in mind, one must ask, what agenda is served by depriving New Orleans of needed leadership, supplies and equipment during this catastrophe? I had a terrible image flash in my mind as I watched the same looped footage of people wandering around with sacks of groceries they'd scavenged...I'm sorry, I mean as criminals roamed the streets with their blatantly looted goods. I had the image of Special Forces/psyops guys going into the city and blending in, in order to observe first hand what happens in a city that has lost all of its infrastructure. Granted, they should have had lots of experience with this after destroying Baghdad twice, but this would allow non-Arabic speaking psyops guys to get some field work in. I have no evidence of this...and it wasn't even something I thought out..it was simply an image that popped into my head from nowhere...but that's the same way I got so upset so quickly about what was happening in New Orleans. I KNEW what was getting ready to happen before much of the information started popping up. I'll keep an eye out, but even if it were true...we'd never know it. By the way, wherever the article on this site about how psyops guys DO deploy for disasters, I didn't see any information about what they actually do during disasters. Nevermind what they actually do, I couldn't even understand what they were officially SAYING they do. Did I miss part of the article or was it not clear? I don't even remember where it was...Jeff's article? By the way, check out this map: <a href="http://militarycomms.tripod.com/military_bases/">militarycomms.tripod.com/military_bases/</a> It's kinda small, but it's a map of military bases in the US. See how densely packed they are around New Orleans. Seems like that's a lot of equipment and people power that could have been deployed right away. I don't mean for martial law...I mean for saving lives. And I'm cynical about the military, but I'm sure the regular soldiers would have jumped at the chance. None really in LA, but I count about 30 in Southern Mississipi and Alabama...most right near the coast.

by **robertdreed** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:41 am

Another thing that I haven't seen much evidence of in the disaster zone- inflatable boats and life preservers! Granted, I haven't been watching the televised broadcasts. If anyone has, perhaps they can fill me in...are they using inflatable rafts, and dropping life preservers to people? As to looting- my first reaction is that, hey, the stuff is liable to go underwater any day/hour/minute no matter what, why not get some use out of it? "Looting" food, water, paper diapers, toilet paper, etc? So what? If I lived in an area that was cut off from the outside, and there was a nearby sporting goods store, I'd be hard-pressed to resist the temptation to check out the rubber raft department. A little charity ferry service might be in order, you know? I'd leave the jewelry stores and pawnshops to the "professionals", though. That sort of merchandise, people get especially competitive.... Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=robertdreed>robertdreed</A> at: 9/1/05 8:44 am

by **AnnaLivia** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:50 am

Hey here’s a little idea. Why don’t we refuse to be kept squabbling over the scraps and choose instead to outlaw having billionaires and trillionaires who are not the earners of the wealth they hold? The funds we need are there, just waiting for us, and they’re ours BY RIGHT AND JUSTICE. Even the former trillionaires will live in a much safer, saner, happier society once we do this. Improve the life of a trillionaire today! Outlaw his existence! You wouldn’t believe how many levees a trillion would buy.

by **Dreams End** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:56 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Hey here’s a little idea. Why don’t we refuse to be kept squabbling over the scraps and choose instead to outlaw having billionaires and trillionaires who are not the earners of the wealth they hold?<hr></blockquote> Great idea. Unfortunately, they write the laws at the moment. Shall I join you at the barricades? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=dreamsend@rigorousintuition>Dreams End</A> at: 9/1/05 9:15 am

Martial law in New Orleans

Re: More Martial Law

Re: More Martial Law

Refugees in Astrodome in Houston

Re: Refugees in Astrodome in Houston

re: More tragicomedy

Re: Martial law in New Orleans

Re: Why indeed...

Re: Why indeed...

Re: Martial law in New Orleans

THE TRUCKS!

New Orleans

Re: THE TRUCKS!

boats

ridiculous suggestion

Re: ridiculous suggestion

Who is online