Peak oil a hoax? Prove it.

[Nordic]

it may be true or not be true.

nonetheless it fits the textbook definition of a "conspiracy theory".

it cannot be disproved.

so those who choose to believe it will believe it.

pretty irrelevant, really.

the fact that people go into survival mode when presented with peak oil" and others welcome artificially high (manipulated) gas prices have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of the situation. that's like saying since some people prepared for the rapture that god doesn't exist. one has nothing to do with the other.

the challenge of this thread is to prove that peak oil doesn't exist, and i have yet to see anyone do that.

almost every natural resource is finite. nobody has proved that there is a "crude oil cycle" like the water cycle or the oxygen/co2 cycle. seems we would know about such a thing by now if it existed.

also seems oil production in america wouldn't have peaked when it did, either. unless we really enjly going to godforsaken hostile environments halfway around the world just to ... do what exactly? i'm sure like all true conspiracy theories, there's an "answer" for this too.

[stickdog99]

nobody has proved that there is a "crude oil cycle" like the water cycle or the oxygen/co2 cycle. seems we would know about such a thing by now if it existed.

How? We have never seriously explored anything below the surface of our earth? For example, we have never once dug to a sterile depth. We simply assume that life peters out as the environment becomes hotter and denser. Where is the evidence?

[wordspeak2]

"the fact that people go into survival mode when presented with peak oil" and others welcome artificially high (manipulated) gas prices have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of the situation. that's like saying since some people prepared for the rapture that god doesn't exist. one has nothing to do with the other."

??? It has everything to do with it, because it shows you the effect of this meme. The people delivering this meme has eugenics written all over them. But this isn't relevant, huh? Your religion comparison is actually perfectly apt. It doesn't matter if "God" exists; here in the real world this is how this shit is being used!
Did you read any of the material posted a few pages back, Nordic? There's a lot there. I don't see all you doomsday "Peak Oil" believers exactly "proving" anything either. So wtf?
I'm a little baffled by how some of you don't intuit this whole "end of the world as we know it" hoopla as being pushed on us. Take a step back... examine it from an honest political perspective. We're in a pretty serious "endgame" type of battle here in the world. Remember 9/11? Now what the hell are we going to do about it? The "Peak Oil" crowd has its unified answer. Population reduction. Not political revolution. That's all you need to know.
Now- those of us who disagree- let's get to the radical consciousness revolution, political overthrow, mass funding of large-scale green energy projects, cutting-edge Paul Stamets-style myco-remediation to clean up toxic waste... overthrow of the existing political order, with an ecological consciousness, because indeed, the Earth is being destroyed- I think we can all agree on that one. Wintler2 and others may be off in their little white survivalist communities that Richard Heinberg calls for, in "The Party's Over," but for the rest of us- I think we need a mass movement, folks.

[Wombaticus Rex]

??? It has everything to do with it, because it shows you the effect of this meme.

...what does that say about the writing of Jeff Wells, then?

let's get to the radical consciousness revolution, political overthrow, mass funding of large-scale green energy projects, cutting-edge Paul Stamets-style myco-remediation to clean up toxic waste.

Amen to that, though I'd like to point out that most bioremediation is actually a process of "sequestering" and isolating the pollutants into specific "hyperaccumulator" plants -- those pollutants primarily remain toxic, dangerous, and in need of disposal elsewhere.

[stickdog99]

What the world needs now is:

1) decentralized renewable energy production

2) conservation

[stickdog99]

Just as Iraqi oil production was finally returning to the "heights" it typically reaches before we foment military strife.

Who could have possibly seen this coming?

Cui bono?

[Belligerent Savant]

.

Not exactly some of my finer posts, but this thread touches on some of the same themes discussed here:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27853

[wordspeak2]

"...what does that say about the writing of Jeff Wells, then?"

I lost you. Which of Jeff's writings are you referring to?

Re; myco-remediation- point taken. I'm not an expert. But some people are. There are burgeoning fields of radical environmental clean-up out there (though nuclear waste remains an issue). With the right people in government we could get down to the dirty work.

"What the world needs now is:
1) decentralized renewable energy production
2) conservation"

Stickdog99, I basically agree, but let's remember that it's *the military* firstly, and industry secondly that's polluting. Average Janes and Joes conserving will only get us so far.
I think we need above all is political revolution. With left-wingers in power we could direct resources towards alternative energy projects. and environmental clean-up (look at Bolivia's "Ministry of Mother Earth"- it's a start... and psychedelic research. In Bill Hick's words- "so we can explore space together forever."

[Wombaticus Rex]

Well, Jeff's work doesn't exactly inspire me to "get involved" and I think I'm far from alone there. It's brutally depressing material -- emphasis on material, since there's no other honest approach to what Jeff writes about. Just the same, I think he paints a very hopeless and claustrophobic Big Picture and it's one that most of RI seems to share. I don't think that makes him "suspect" -- just honest.

[waugs]

It's not up to us to prove something DOESN'T exist. It's up to the believers to prove it does.

[wordspeak2]

I don't know, Wombaticus Rex, to me it's just the truth sets you free. I like Jeff's stuff because it's real. I've been a "hyperactivist" in the past, and though I still help out with some grassroots stuff, I think that we need a totally open board on the question, "What is to be done?" Even the darkest SRA-type material doesn't "depress" me; I think it's denial and lack of knowledge that's depressing. What frustrates me isn't Jeff, but conversations like the one I'm having with some idiot friend of a friend on Facebook right now who says, "There is no good and evil. Even the people orchestrating wars think they are doing good." I'd like to see this privileged asshole on the others side of the class divide. And Jeff has even given a head nod to Latin American revolutions and has aboveground progressive sympathies, so his politics aren't gloom and despair.

[wintler2]

.. Also, one should really take the time to read Dave McGowan's articles on the subject, which are excellent, imo.

Why?

I think it's telling that Engdahl was involved in the "Peak Oil" community for a long time

bollocks, Engdahl is an expert on everything without a qualification or apparent experience in anything.

and came to see it as a fabrication. Indeed, it's not hard to trace the "Peak Oil" meme to its crypto-fascists roots. Here's an article that does that: http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr55.html
I think the McGowan articles start here: http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr52.html

So you really really like Dave Mcgowan, i get that, 'Chong without the bong' someone nicely tagged him once. Why? What solid information does he bring?

I've personally interviewed Michael Lynch, an investor who believes that "Peak Oil" is fraudulent. The fact is, the notion of "Peak Oil" is not accepted within investment circles- people whose wallets depend on this.

Others are saying PO is a money-elite scam, so you'd disagree with them then? Lynch makes all of his money from Big Oil, and Big Oil denies Peak Oil because they'd inevitably have less control over & profit from 'their' oil if everybody understood how little was left.

And it is certainly not a question of, "The only question is when." If the Russian studies were correct and there is abiotic oil, then... well, that means it reproduces itself.

Why is none of this abiotic oil on the market?

.. We need to reject the posing of imminent danger as panic, as Chicken Little's alarm over the Falling Sky."

I agree, see my first post on this thread.

From a political perspective it's easy to see the negative effect of the "Peak Oil" meme. I'm involved in radical circles in a fairly rural area, and I've seen a lot- like a ton- of people get de-politicized and enter a "head for the hills" mentality over the supposed imminent "Peak Oil" crisis. It has a very de-politicizing effect. Folks who get really into the "Peak Oil" think get really individualist and survivalist, where they might otherwise have been politically active. For a lot of people it makes them welcome insanely high gas prices. Also, it creates a displacement of blame in what's wrong with the world from political fascism to over-consumption by common people. We all drive too much, that's the problem. Oh, really? And are we being set up for a martial-law moment, when the lights go out and the police state comes out? It's "Peak Oil," man; we did it to ourselves...
..There is, indeed, an extremely imminent threat to the survival of the planet and its beautiful people; it's called CAPITALISM. Let's focus on that.

So you reject the possibility of oil production peaking because you don't like the effects that knowledge has on other people? Anything else about the world you'd like others to ignore?

[wintler2]

It's not up to us to prove something DOESN'T exist. It's up to the believers to prove it does.

They have, see links on pg 1.

[wintler2]

Well, Jeff's work doesn't exactly inspire me to "get involved" and I think I'm far from alone there. It's brutally depressing material -- emphasis on material, since there's no other honest approach to what Jeff writes about. Just the same, I think he paints a very hopeless and claustrophobic Big Picture and it's one that most of RI seems to share. I don't think that makes him "suspect" -- just honest.

I hear that is your response, sympathy, but its not mine. I got several things from Jeffs blog that helped me, firstly a better idea of who 'we' are and who and why we fight, and why the fight has been in many senses going badly in recent decades. 'If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst.'

[wintler2]

Who could have possibly seen this coming?

Cui bono?

Sorry stickdog, not sure i get your point: US oil industry contractors have got involved in Iraq in preparation for US soldiers leaving/reducing#'s ? Wont that leave them vulnerable?

And why is Iraqs 2- 4 mbd especially significant in an 80+ mbd world? Sure its enough to make a war (that oil co's don't pay for) worthwhile, but its not pivotal in any way to global peak oil.