Huge explosion in Oslo

[vanlose kid]

Just so it's clear:

Beredskapstroppen (BT) (English Contingency Platoon), call sign Delta, is a specialized police unit situated in Oslo, Norway. It is the main public force counter-terrorism unit in Norway,trained to perform dangerous operations such as high-risk arrests and hostage situations.

Members of the unit have been deployed in the multinational police unit, Special Team Six many times. Team Six has most notably served in Kosovo. One of the unit's most important task was to arrest war criminals. According to one of the Delta operators, during a rescue mission, grenades and bullets flew over their heads while Team Six rescued 50-60 persons from furious Albanians.[1] This incident was a rescue of UN personnel trapped in a building. Team Six was commanded by a Norwegian operator from Beredskapstroppen during this mission and during the period January-July 2004. Beredskapstroppen has had personnel deployed in Team Six ever since its foundation.[2]

just so it's clear, they were not trained to act as sitting ducks. this is not Tennyson and the Charge of the Light Brigade.

*

[Joe Hillshoist]

According to the current official timeline, it took 97 minutes for the killer to go from placing a bomb in Oslo to killing kids on the island and he took the ferry!

Nobody's suggesting he lit a fuse under the car.

The timeline is:

15:20: A witness observes what he describes as a suspicious-looking man leaving Regjeringskvartalet (the Government quarter), in downtown Oslo.[8]

15:22: A bomb placed in a Volkswagen Crafter goes off in Grubbegata, near the offices of the Prime Minister, and several other governmental buildings.[9]

Again WTF is up with all the apologists for the cops taking 78 minutes to get the damn island with little kids getting shot all the while?

from the same timeline:

17:27: The local police district in Buskerud learn about the shooting, and three minutes later the police in Oslo are informed.[10]

17:38: Northern Buskerud police district ask Oslo police district for assistance.[13] Beredskapstroppen (the Contingency Platoon) is dispatched from Oslo to Utøya.[10]

17:52: The first local police car arrives at Tyrifjorden, but the officers have to wait for a suitable craft before they can cross over to Utøya.[12]

18:00

18:09: The Contingency Platoon arrive, but are also forced to wait for a boat.[9] The boat that is finally provided is too small for the amount of personnel and equipment, and nearly sinks during the crossing.[12]

18:25: The Contingency Platoon arrive on Utøya and go ashore.[11]

that's 58 minutes.

*

So you believe it took 20 minutes for the first kid to call 911 or 20 minutes for 911 to call the cops?

I've been on a fire crew that were called out to a fire at a similar address 400km away a couple of years ago after the rationalisation of the call out process. Thats one example tho there have been others less ridiculous, and honestly none really seem applicable to this situation. To me (having never been there) it seems obvious that thats a long time on the face of it.

But ... well on another occasion several of us saw a fire start, called my brigade and we got organised and called 000 at the same time to make it official. We were at the fire (in the bush) fighting it when the call came thru on the pagers.

Admittedly thats different to the situation in Norway, but to me it seems reasonable that the same sort of things can happen.

It doesn't mean they did in this case, but it means the potential is there.

[Laodicean]

Right. They weren't trained to be sitting ducks. But they acted like it that day, apparently. They were ordered to deploy, as trained, and we are told their (not one, but two) virtually unsinkable boats were not available when needed and was sinking. You're right, Kid. Seems like a work of complete fiction.

[Joe Hillshoist]

But if you were a cop in charge of other cops you might not.

If you were a cops boss, or a cop higher up the chain of command you might not think that. You might be thinking that there has been a bombing here, then a mass shooting all the way over there. Whats gonna happen when we get there to stop the mad shooting? A nuke in Bergen. Someone kills the royal family?

Its a different level of responsibility to being a cop on the ground at the site of the shooting. Especially when you don't know what is gonna happen next.


IN Australia, and AFAIK this applies to every emergency service in the Western World, if you are in charge then you are responsible for the safety of the people you're in charge of first. And for getting them to do the job correctly. Everything else comes second.

Despite what the movies say no one is expected to send their people into harms way with no specific info on whats going on. You have a boat full of armed men - you send across open water and one or two armed perps then shoot them all in the boat or shoot it with an rpg, which they may well have given there has just been a bombing and what appears to be an organised targeted mass killing. Then you have to dedicate resources to rescuing them and treating them as well as everything else.

Its far easier for a civilian in a boat to take independent autonomous and successful action off their own initiative than it is for an organised hierarchy to do the same thing.

Also people are assuming that cops are some sort of saviours that'll come in and make everything all right.

Fuck if you called the cops where I live and they got here inside an hour I'd be (un?) pleasantly surprised.

People take advantage of the fact that cops are notoriously slow to get anywhere to get stuff done and get the fuck away.

Good post, Joe. I'm not saying it has to be a big conspiracy. I'm just saying that all the excuses are bullshit.

Yeah, its cool, cos I'm not saying the excuses are all true either. But at the same time they might be. Thats all.

[vanlose kid]

Right. They weren't trained to be sitting ducks. But they acted like it that day, apparently. They were ordered to deploy, as trained, and we are told their (not one, but two) virtually unsinkable boats were not available when needed and was sinking. You're right, Kid. Seems like a work of complete fiction.

where did you get that?

*

[Laodicean]

18:09: The Contingency Platoon arrive, but are also forced to wait for a boat.[9] The boat that is finally provided is too small for the amount of personnel and equipment, and nearly sinks during the crossing.[12]

Beredskapstroppen

Equipment

Beredskapstroppen has two Rigid-hulled inflatable boats. The type has three engines with a total of 675 HP.
For air transport Beredskapstroppen uses military Bell 412 SP from the RNoAF.

Rigid-hulled inflatable boat

A rigid-hulled inflatable boat, (RHIB) or rigid-inflatable boat (RIB) is a light-weight but high-performance and high-capacity boat constructed with a solid, shaped hull and flexible tubes at the gunwale. The design is stable and seaworthy. The inflatable collar allows the vessel to maintain buoyancy even if a large quantity of water is shipped aboard due to bad sea conditions.

Performance

RIBs are designed with hydroplaning hulls. Due to their low weight, RIBs often outperform some types of similarly sized and powered boats, although a pure fibreglass speedboat with similar dimensions is typically faster, due to its lighter weight and more arrowlike-shape.
RIBs can also generally cope better with rougher seas, although this may be partially due to an increased level of confidence, in knowing that a RIB is hard to sink, and better absorption of heavy loads by the flexible tubes, which therefore make heavy seas less unpleasant.[5]
The maximum speed of the RIB depends on its gross weight, power, length and profile of hull, and sea conditions. A typical seaborne 6-metre (19 ft 8 in) RIB, with six passengers, 110 horsepower (82 kW) engines, in Beaufort force 2 is very likely to have a top speed of around 30 knots (56 km/h). High-Performance RIBs may operate with a speed between 40 and 70 knots (74 and 130 km/h), depending on the size and weight.

[vanlose kid]

18:09: The Contingency Platoon arrive, but are also forced to wait for a boat.[9] The boat that is finally provided is too small for the amount of personnel and equipment, and nearly sinks during the crossing.[12]

Beredskapstroppen

Equipment

Beredskapstroppen has two Rigid-hulled inflatable boats. The type has three engines with a total of 675 HP.
For air transport Beredskapstroppen uses military Bell 412 SP from the RNoAF.

Rigid-hulled inflatable boat

A rigid-hulled inflatable boat, (RHIB) or rigid-inflatable boat (RIB) is a light-weight but high-performance and high-capacity boat constructed with a solid, shaped hull and flexible tubes at the gunwale. The design is stable and seaworthy. The inflatable collar allows the vessel to maintain buoyancy even if a large quantity of water is shipped aboard due to bad sea conditions.

Performance

RIBs are designed with hydroplaning hulls. Due to their low weight, RIBs often outperform some types of similarly sized and powered boats, although a pure fibreglass speedboat with similar dimensions is typically faster, due to its lighter weight and more arrowlike-shape.
RIBs can also generally cope better with rougher seas, although this may be partially due to an increased level of confidence, in knowing that a RIB is hard to sink, and better absorption of heavy loads by the flexible tubes, which therefore make heavy seas less unpleasant.[5]
The maximum speed of the RIB depends on its gross weight, power, length and profile of hull, and sea conditions. A typical seaborne 6-metre (19 ft 8 in) RIB, with six passengers, 110 horsepower (82 kW) engines, in Beaufort force 2 is very likely to have a top speed of around 30 knots (56 km/h). High-Performance RIBs may operate with a speed between 40 and 70 knots (74 and 130 km/h), depending on the size and weight.

okay, so? these boats weren't there so the fact that they are better than the Titanic is rather immaterial don't you think? or are you suggesting they should have waited to fly the boats in and then get going?

*

[Harvey]

According to the time line, the ferry crossed in ten minutes with Breivik, after his arrival at the lake. Police took 33 minutes after their arrival to make the same journey. Question is, why didn't they just get on the Ferry? Did I miss something?

[Laodicean]

It's obviously not important.

Edit: I mean, why wait for something they should have already had ready to go (two of them at that!). They're only the goddamn counter-terrorism force, sitting by the dock of the bay...wasting time.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Not buying the special forces boat sinking story...not for such a highly trained counter-terrorism force and the available boats at their disposal...and train on.

You wouldn't think that you could get a firetruck bogged and then have it destroyed by fire 5 minutes later either, but it happens.

OK those two are not the same thing obviously, but how do you know what boats they had at their disposal at that time or how good the decision making was ... especially if they had been fucking around for ages trying to hurry up and get organised.

Do you overload this one and only boat in the attempt to get across half a km - 2 minutes in a boat like that at most, or do you wait another 10 - 20 minutes, potentially, for a more suitable one. You have already been piss farting around for an hour trying to get here now do you go across with a group thats potentially too small and ineffective, wait and waste even more time or overload a boat in the hope that it'll somehow hold together (despite the evidence of your sense, senses and the trends of a day where everything has gone to shit so far.)

People on this thread have said how they would have acted quicker and more decisively, but having one boat and overloading it is precisely the sort of thing that happens when people try and act decisively and overestimate their abilities and the abilities of the gear they have.

And this may well have happened.

But again would you wait? Or would you try and get across on a boat that was too small.

(Obviously I don't know what happened, and whether this was the situation or not. But I can it see how something like that could happen.)

[vanlose kid]

According to the time line, the ferry crossed in ten minutes with Breivik, after his arrival at the lake. Police took 33 minutes after their arrival to make the same journey. Question is, why didn't they just get on the Ferry? Did I miss something?

i get 16 minutes, where do you get 33?

It's obviously not important.

obviously.

*

[Joe Hillshoist]

According to the time line, the ferry crossed in ten minutes with Breivik, after his arrival at the lake. Police took 33 minutes after their arrival to make the same journey. Question is, why didn't they just get on the Ferry? Did I miss something?

Who is going to drive the ferry? Assuming it came back, are you going to force the civilian crew of a ferry to take the boat onto an island with potentially multiple, heavily armed psychos who have already detonated a massive bomb in the middle of Oslo??

[Harvey]

According to the time line, the ferry crossed in ten minutes with Breivik, after his arrival at the lake. Police took 33 minutes after their arrival to make the same journey. Question is, why didn't they just get on the Ferry? Did I miss something?

i get 16 minutes, where do you get 33?

It's obviously not important.

obviously.

*

17:52: The first local police car arrives at Tyrifjorden, but the officers have to wait for a suitable craft before they can cross over to Utøya.[12]
18:00

18:09: The Contingency Platoon arrive, but are also forced to wait for a boat.[9] The boat that is finally provided is too small for the amount of personnel and equipment, and nearly sinks during the crossing.[12]

18:25: The Contingency Platoon arrive on Utøya and go ashore

[Laodicean]

It's obviously not important.

Edit: I mean, why wait for something they should have already had ready to go (two of them at that!). They're only the goddamn counter-terrorism force, sitting by the dock of the bay...wasting time.

[Laodicean]

If the wiki link page on the Delta team is accurate - they had (2) RIBs...both with 3 engines @ 675 HP. Those are big identical boats...