Huge explosion in Oslo

[lupercal]

It's a distinction without much of a difference, though. If they're impeachable, you can hardly call them credible.

There's a difference. As waugs points out, no photography can really be considered unimpeachable, but nevertheless, many photos and videos are credible.

This photo, for example, is perfectly credible, although it has no discernible connection to Breivik and proves nothing about anything:

[norton ash]

How many Norwegian teen angels can dance on the head of a pin? That'd be a similarly productive dialogue.

[DrVolin]

The figure in the video seems to be wearing the standard Scandinavian workman's deep blue overalls with reflective bands at the knees and elbows.

[vanlose kid]

Could Paul Ray or Alan Lake be Anders Behring Breivik’s UK mentor?
By ktwop

Right wing bloggers are busy distancing themselves from Anders Behring Breivik. These include Robert Spencer, Baron Bodissey, Pam Geller, Carl in Jerusalem, EU Referendum, Lionheart and Fjordman among others. Some are mounting a defence of their views while trying to separate their ideologies from the actions in Norway.

The anti-immigration political parties in Scandinavia are busy trying to separate their ideologies and rantings from the “insanity” of Breivik’s actions. It is interesting that they are very quick to blame any terrorist action by any Islamist group onto Islam as a whole but are now desperately denying that their ideologies could have contributed any legitimacy to Breivik or to the massacre in Norway. This morning I listened to a spokesman for the Swedish Democrats on radio but he came across as being defensive, rather plaintive and peevish and suffering under the weight of unjust accusations.

The Freemasons in Norway and worldwide are are also trying to get as far away from Anders Behring Breivik and as quickly as possible.

The English Defence League is the most likely home of Breivik’s UK support. Paul Ray (Lionheart) of the English Defence League may be one of the favourites to be ”Richard” the UK mentor of Anders Behring Breivik.


Paul Ray

Facebook: “Paul Ray even by EDL standards is a ****ing nutter. a hardline Christian fundamentalist obssessed with the crusades and St George. Ray has already been kicked out of the EDL once for insubordination and organising demos and not turning up to them.

But he is busy pointing the finger at Alan Lake.

It has been implied several places that due to the fact I use the name Lionheart on this blog and my anti-Islamic fundamentalism ideology is similar, not the same, as Anders Breivik that Richard could mean Richard the Lionheart, thus Lionheart could mean me.

I might be a Christian fundamentalist who has a deep dislike for Islamic fundamentalism who looks to Templarism as an example, but anyone who knows me knows that I personally would play no part in such inhumane savagery that has no place in the civilised world.

……. and now the penny has finally dropped on who the most likely person is, who ‘Richard’ the English mentor of Anders Breivik is. EDL’s financier and political controller Alan Lake.

The Right Perspective:

The “perfect knight” Norwegian terror suspect Anders Behring Breivik said he met at a 2002 London initiation ceremony of the Knights Templar is English Defence League financier and political controller Alan Lake, according to a self-proclaimed “founding father” of the group.

Ray, who calls himself one of “the founding fathers” of the right-wing English Defence League, and was arrested three years ago for “inciting racial hatred” with his blog. He writes under the penname “Lionheart,” named after King Richard I, who earned the name Lionheart for commanding armies as a teenager during the Third Crusade.

Alan Lake addresses a Sweden Democrat conference in September 2009

Alan Lake is not an unlikely contender. Lake is a 45 -year-old businessman from Highgate, North London, who claims to have made his money through computers, and runs a series of intranet services for far-right groups around the world. He also has strong links with the anti-immigration parties in Sweden and Norway. He spoke at a seminar organised by Kent Ekeroth of the Sweden Democrats in Malmö on 6 September 2009. In April 2010, Lake admitted to a Norwegian TV channel that he had helped to fund the EDL. Following the Utoya Massacre in Norway on 24 July 2011, Lake commented: “Apparently, in a long screed Anders Behring Breivik posted on line, he did this attack to protest against the way that Islam is taking over large parts of Europe. By attacking the leftist politicians that are enabling this, the chickens have actually come home to roost – altho I’m sure it won’t be depicted that way”.

https://ktwop.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/ ... uk-mentor/

*

AP Exclusive: ‘Knight Templar’ says no Norway link

By SIMON HAYDON – Associated Press | AP – 15 mins ago

LONDON (AP) — A British right-wing blogger linked to the Norway gunman has confirmed the existence of an anti-Muslim group inspired by ancient crusaders that the killer claims he was a member of.

But in an interview with The Associated Press, the Briton denied Anders Behring Breivik belonged to his Knights Templar group and said he’d never heard of the Norwegian before the attacks.

Breivik said in his 1,500-page manifesto that he was mentored by a British man known as “Richard (the Lionhearted)” — and the leader of the far-right English Defense League has told AP that “Richard” is Paul Ray, author of the blog “Lionheart.”

But Ray, who split with the EDL years ago, denied any connection to Breivik.

In a telephone interview from his home in Malta, Ray said he was not at a 2002 meeting in London which Breivik claims gave birth to a group called the Knights Templar of Europe, whose founders included himself and “Richard.”

However, the 35-year-old Ray said he shares Breivik’s views and has several apparent similarities with the “mentor” in the killer’s manifesto, chiefly that he leads an anti-Muslim group called The Ancient Order of the Templar Knights. But Ray denied knowing Breivik and suggested the group had no formal structure. He refused to name any members or indicate how many it has.

“It’s an idea,” Ray said. “It’s not like it’s a massive organization. It’s a belief.”

But he denies he approved of Breivik’s methods, which include killing innocents to draw attention to his philosophy.

“I’d like to express my deepest sympathy to the people of Norway and to the families who have lost children,” Ray said. “It’s a horrendous crime that has been committed by someone what goes beyond the realm of human understanding.”

Breivik, 32, claims he committed Friday’s massacre as the order’s first blow in an apocalyptic war against Muslims, immigrants and leftists to prevent what he believes is an Islamic attempt to take over western Europe.

Ray said he fled England two years ago after being arrested for stirring up racial hatred, and settled in Malta. He plans to return next week to see his family even though he doesn’t know if he will be arrested on outstanding charges.

“I’m willing to speak to anyone in authority and to be open about everything,” he said.

Breivik has said the PCCTS, a Latin acronym for the Knights Templar, has several cells in Western countries and two more in Norway. In his manifesto, he claimed he sets the group’s agenda.

“We have the right and a duty to temporarily seize political and military control of our country until all … traitors have been hunted down and executed and all Muslims have been deported,” he writes.

He also sought to detect links between the Knights Templar and the EDL: “I wonder sometimes if one of the EDL founders was one of the co-founders of PCCTS, I guess I’ll never know for sure. EDL is a nonviolent protest organization though but I noticed they have copied a lot from the PCCTS.”

The leader of the EDL, Stephen Lennon, said Tuesday he doesn’t know Breivik and kicked Ray out shortly after the EDL was formed, on grounds he was bent on taking over the group with his own agenda.

Ray, who says he was born Paul Sonato but took his mother’s maiden name, denied ever having heard of the Norwegian before Friday’s massacres.

“Being implicated in this, I just want the truth to come out and it proven that I’m nothing whatever to do with this,” Ray said.

Ray said the confessed killer appeared to have taken some of his ideas and used them as justification for his killing spree.

“This is getting bad. It’s really pointing at us. All these things he’s been talking about are linked to us,” he said. “It’s like he’s created this whole thing around us.”

Ray often shares views similar to Breivik’s on his anti-Muslim blog, whose title is a reference to King Richard I of England, who led Christian crusades in the 12th century.

“My thoughts are the same as that Anders, that there is a threat to our way of life from Islam. I’m not going to say I don’t think there is because I do,” Ray said. “Me being a Christian, I do look towards the Templars throughout history and how they’ve defended us from the jihad.”

The order, Ray said, was set up in response to “Muslims in our country (England) trying to take over our country. Let’s not pretend it’s not happening. They are actively declaring their vision to take our country over.”

Ray’s blog discussed establishing a Knights Templar order as far back as 2007: “Where are the ‘original’ Knights Templar’s, Gods Army on Earth now, it is time you came out of the shadows and helped your fellow country men, the time of peace and security has passed.”

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-exclusive-knig ... ZWN0aW9ucw–;_ylv=3

*

[Joe Hillshoist]

.

Okay, let's speculate: Gladio. Why is this new incarnation fingering Nazis?

.

Cos enough time has passed, and we are pro Israel so we can't really be Nazis??

This Nazi happens to be very pro-Israel. Nowadays, that doesn't make him less of a Nazi.
.

No, I know, cos its not ":fingering" imo. I reckon this guy and his attitude have more support than you realise.

Check out "Go Back to where you came from."

And especially the follow up show:

http://www.sbs.com.au/shows/goback

[Joe Hillshoist]

^ From among 700 gifted, technologically aware teenagers, yes, I'd expect a good portion to have a) immediately recognized the importance and value of photography, b) been in a position to snap without detection (cell phones can be muted), and c) been clear-headed enough to use the hour and a half they had to wait wisely and send out photos and video while they were waiting.

In fact I'd expect the internet to be flooded with such images, but I have yet to see one.

You've never been in a full on out of control situation have you.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Well RobinDaHood, not to pat myself on the back, but I actually asked the exact same question a couple of pages ago. I think it;s a legitimate question. There's an island with 700 teenagers and 1 killer. Noone is saying take a picture when the guy is standing in front of you, but no pictures at all being tweeted or whatever is kinda curious. People were texting and doing facebook updates. How is that so different? But like Mac said, maybe they have yet to surface.

You do know that a camera needs line of sight and so does a gun right?

Texting and facebook updates are useful. They were texting each other saying where is he, whats he doing, what should we do. That actually makes sense, cos its using technology to increase your odds of survival and there is real time information. What good is a photo in that situation? Taking a photo doesn't add survival value to what you're doing tho.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Some people say "He should die", others say "Why kill him? Torture him, THEN kill him." But we can't think like this. If we think or say these things, we are acting just like him. Anders B. Breivik should not die, because there is no death penalty in Norway. But he will be imprisoned and he will know what he has done. He will know how incredibly many human lives he has taken and destroyed. And he will know that what he has done can never be undone.

We must stand together and cry, be furious, frustrated and maybe cry some more. Those who have lost someone shall know that all of Norway cries with them and send their thoughts to those who lost their lives on 22.07.2011.

Anne Sofie Rønnfeldt (Age 13), Nesodden

This thirteen year old girl, who I imagine hasn't read Brievik's manifesto or even followed politics much in her short life, is apparently smarter than half the people on this thread. More decent too. What is going on here? FFS indeed.

One of his victims, a teenage boy with leg wounds, was asked today what he thought of Brievik. "I feel sorry for him. He will see that we will not back up from what we are, and the world he wants will never come to pass."

The world he wants would most definitely include torture, execution, heavily militarised police, and extremely harsh prisons. Don't give it to him. Don't even suggest it, because there are plenty of forces out there just waiting to supply it.

[stickdog99]

If I was a cop I wouldnt have gone NEAR that island until the army were there - if that meant he shot every child on the island FINE.

Why?

Because in the scenario of someone doing that, they would be a prime candidate for
releasing a

Bio-weapon
Dirty bomb
Suitcase nuke

Are you two such great Risk Analysts that you would go in there, guns blazing like John Wayne, in THOSE scenarios? When you dont even know WHO is doing it?

So if you knew government agents were the ones doing it, you would just sit there letting them kill kids by the score.

Christ, you know it ain't easy.

[stickdog99]

"It is interesting that they are very quick to blame any terrorist action by any Islamist group onto Islam as a whole but are now desperately denying that their ideologies could have contributed any legitimacy to Breivik or to the massacre in Norway."

Indeed it is.

[8bitagent]

This is starting to sound like the "Loose Change facts" that made me give up on "9/11 truth"(ie: what passengers? all fake planes! fake crashes!)

I do see great potential for this event tying to deep state missions, but I'm not sure what sort of rosetta stone can be gleaned from the fact kids werent snapping pictures. Even the obsession over the police response I'm not quite sure is a smoking gun. As Nordic and others have said, there's just not enough evidence that's come out to really get a good hold on it. I'm sure in the weeks and months to come more will come out that will flesh out the hidden story...though I suspect by then, much more bigger and game changing events will be transpiring.

[barracuda]

I agree, Mr. 8-bit. The difference being that this time it is a right-winger who did the deed rather than the islamo patsy-jackers, so the right-wing is gathering their disclaimers and equivocations around the event and infusing the dialogue with a predictable set of conspiracy tropes which implicate the Norwegian social-democratic left. Here's where this leads:

NORWAY massacre: there were no "victims". All staged. All camp members part of the theater

The functional equivalent of the "no-planers" transposed to meet the needs of this incident. And ten years from now when this subject comes up, there will be those who will still be adamantly discussing controlled demolition helicopters. It's as if the extreme right has been taking notes from the extreme truthers.

[AhabsOtherLeg]

Don't forget that Breivik was a Leftist too, apparently, just like Hitler, so even if he did it it was because of socialism. Seriously.

And even if he was right-wing, as the Italian Lega Nord idiot admits, he had some "good ideas" and some "excellent" ones - "minus the violence." Of course, minus the violence, no one would know or care about his ideas, because they're not good at all.

The Internet Right have been working hard, though, and they've got all the angles covered already.

...in the absence of credible cell phone photos or video, which should be available in abundance, I can't frankly think of anything.

Available, just possibly. In abundance? Why?

I don't own a mobile phone so maybe I don't understand quite how essential and constant their use is for most folk, but are there really people who would chase a gunman around taking film and pics of him while he actively hunts and murders them and their friends? Is this really something that human beings would do?

The first phone-related reports I heard were that kids had wisely switched their phones off while hiding so that incoming calls from concerned parents or friends wouldn't give their positions away to Breivik. Makes sense to me.

So far as I know there are only a few videos around so far (only two that I've seen) from the aftermath of the bombing in Oslo, where people had a lot more time and opportunity to take them, the threat having (so far as anyone knew) already done it's worst.

So I wouldn't expect an abundance of video from Utoya. I wouldn't expect any at all, really, other than from the news copter, unless the cops had chest or helmet cams - or unless Breivik was wearing a cam himself, as he planned to do in the manifesto. BTW, there are always quote-marks around the word manifesto in this thread, even though we can't see them.

[RobinDaHood]

This guy claims that video of the second bomb going off is fake...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-QetRjaAM4&feature=player_embedded#at=137

[lupercal]

I don't own a mobile phone so maybe I don't understand quite how essential and constant their use is for most folk, but are there really people who would chase a gunman around taking film and pics of him while he actively hunts and murders them and their friends? Is this really something that human beings would do?

I might be projecting here but the answer in my experience is yes, this is something teenagers of a certain demographic (basically bright middle class kids with iphones and smart phones) would have to be admonished NOT to do, especially if there were really just one shooter, and it was Breivik, who looks rather stout and not particularly difficult to hide from in a garage, basement, attic, closet, locker, vehicle, etc and photograph. It's pretty clear though that there were multiple shooters, and I doubt if Breivik was one of them, so hiding may have been more difficult. Still, that out of 700 politically aware teens and twenty-somethings not one managed to send out a photo or video that's made it into Google suggests to me that this was a tightly controlled operation indeed.