A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby 82_28 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:34 pm

I always wondered about the whole bit about oh, 12 years ago, that companies were investing in sending "broadband" over the electric lines. Here we have it. It was all over like slashdot and shit over a decade ago. Something about the amount of data that can be sent down the pipes and the amount of data noise that needed to be cancelled out with everything else that was in there.

Back then, it was talked up as an exciting new future right there, already in existence that would cause you to get all your data from ISPs that were in the day still working on that extra mile, remember that -- trying to get DSL to your house and shit? But everybody wanted broadband push tech. Now it's commonplace and now metered more and more. QED. . .

I ask, very, very blankly. I have absolutely no fucking idea. I also completely, highly doubt what I am about to say.

BUT

Could it be that simultaneously everything we do with the various connections to shit on our computers are also be being logged through the electric throughput of the computer? It could easily be done and be sent along the line.

Disclaimer: I wouldn't even be posting on the web if I gave a fuck that that was true.

BUT

Could everything (for the most part) be being "secondarily" sent and recorded via just your charger cable? Electricity is a strange beast that I don't even fathom as it is.

I say, you never fucking know.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby Simulist » Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:35 am

I sure don't have the technical expertise to answer that question in any sort of definitive way…

But I wouldn't be at all surprised.
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Re: Re:

Postby wintler2 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:55 am

alwyn wrote:I'm not sure how they are a 'necessary adaptation to the scale of current consumption',

Thats not an engineering opinion, just my opinion of what seems a predictable attempt to continue the mains power privelidge.
There are lots of us, we want lots of electricity. Smart meters, if designed and used right, enable more ppl to get by with less. Smart meters could use price or other signals to consumers in real time to cut or displace demand, moderating the very costly peaks and troughs of demand, which are very wasteful. Generators will be able to produce less and get paid for more of what they do produce = efficiency saving, jam tomorrow, happy motoring unto the 7th son of the 7th son (not). There is a real saving to be made, and the Appalachians are running out of coal mountains, and the tech cornucopians have to try something (that how they chisel govt).

alwyn wrote:and how do they enable sell back? can you 'splain?

Some smart meters include or can be plugged into a grid-tie inverter, basically a box for turning electricity generated via say solar PV panels (DC at 24 or 48 volts) into your grids AC 240volt (or whatever it is for you heathens). Why would you put electricity into the grid? to get paid of course! i know 3 one person households within a mile that use less electricity than their solar PV systems produce, they gets $50-200/year from power co.
Not all smart meters are the same tho, and there is a bit of Monorail/blackbox mystery about them, simply because we're so used to electricity as some sort of always-on no-thought-reqd teat. That privelidge is expiring.
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Re: Re:

Postby alwyn » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:34 pm

wintler2 wrote:
alwyn wrote:and how do they enable sell back? can you 'splain?

Some smart meters include or can be plugged into a grid-tie inverter, basically a box for turning electricity generated via say solar PV panels (DC at 24 or 48 volts) into your grids AC 240volt (or whatever it is for you heathens). Why would you put electricity into the grid? to get paid of course! i know 3 one person households within a mile that use less electricity than their solar PV systems produce, they gets $50-200/year from power co.
Not all smart meters are the same tho, and there is a bit of Monorail/blackbox mystery about them, simply because we're so used to electricity as some sort of always-on no-thought-reqd teat. That privelidge is expiring.


Grid ties do not need smart meters to work. They work quite well with the existing meters. My son, whose father works in the solar industry, has informed me that PGE requires smart meters for the grid ties, but up until this year, he was installing them with the existing mechanical meters. The selling power on the smart meter works only as well as the programming for the smart meter...in this day of black box voting, do we trust that these meters are working for us?
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Re: Re:

Postby eyeno » Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:17 pm

Grid ties do not need smart meters to work. They work quite well with the existing meters. My son, whose father works in the solar industry, has informed me that PGE requires smart meters for the grid ties, but up until this year, he was installing them with the existing mechanical meters. The selling power on the smart meter works only as well as the programming for the smart meter...in this day of black box voting, do we trust that these meters are working for us?





True because people are already doing it.

Siemens is involved too so I suppose the new grid and meters will be Stuxnet compliant. Great...All we are truly doing is handing over control of our power grid to the oligarchs. Piss em off and they will just cut off your power. Now they can mess with your 'individual' power on a case by case basis from the home office without ever having to come to your house. Unprecedented control. Not to mention the snooping capability.


Pentagon to Receive Smart Grid Upgrade
Wiki image
Activist Post

The new Smart Grid program that is being rolled out across the world in the name of "saving the environment" has already come under fire on multiple fronts.

Writers such as Cassandra Anderson (http://www.activistpost.com/2011/08/sma ... avery.html) and Marti Oakley (http://www.activistpost.com/2011/08/sma ... n-4th.html) have addressed the documented negative health effects; the fallacy that costs will be reduced, the violation of the Commerce Clause, as well as the potential for intrusive surveillance in violation of the Fourth Amendment to the U. S. Constitution.


Consequently, there is mounting resistance among citizens (http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2011/03 ... wn-devices) to the implementation of Smart Grid technology, which has caused many communities to back off installations of these electric meters. However, some stealth plans for implementation of Smart water and gas meters continues apace.

The Pentagon is evidently not bothered by much of what has been revealed by citizen investigations, and will be receiving an infrastructure upgrade from the team of behemoth military defense contractors Boeing and Siemens (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 25978.html) that promises to "improve energy access and security for the U.S. Department of Defense."

Within this defense and energy initiative we can also see what Judy Marks, the head of Siemens U.S. Federal Business, highlights as "a vision for the United States' energy future."

VIDEO

Perhaps this initiative is moving forward as propaganda due to the flagging support of the public. Let's face it, the Pentagon has never been much concerned with wasting money (http://articles.sfgate.com/2003-05-18/n ... accounting) before (think $640 toilet seat), or accounting (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... money.html) for the money given them by taxpayers (think 95% of Iraq reconstruction funds gone AWOL).

Rather, this seems like another inside deal that will be used to ram through a dubious green agenda and continue fleecing the American taxpayer.
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Re: Re:

Postby wintler2 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:37 pm

alwyn wrote:Grid ties do not need smart meters to work. They work quite well with the existing meters. My son, whose father works in the solar industry, has informed me that PGE requires smart meters for the grid ties, but up until this year, he was installing them with the existing mechanical meters.
Sure, the grid-tie will work without the smartmeter, in the simple sense that you can put your electricity into the grid. But the Grid wont work with millions of households putting random amounts of elec into it, which is why some sort of demand management mechanism is reqd.

The grid requires stability of production and consumption of elec over time - if they get out of balance there are real and expensive problems: ie. more produced than consumed = losses for producers, risks of overloading, wasted resources. More consumed than produced = brownouts, blackouts, compensation claims.

alwyn wrote:The selling power on the smart meter works only as well as the programming for the smart meter...in this day of black box voting, do we trust that these meters are working for us?

Since you can measure elec in & out either side of the meter, feel free to check. Or you could not sell to the grid at all, just store excess elec in batteries, which are expensive & loss-y but thats thermodynamics for you.

Smart meters allow the bigger producers to signal consumers. Sure that requires more brain cells than the "always on, always more available" that we're used to, but we can't stay children forever.
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Re: Re:

Postby wintler2 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:45 pm

eyeno wrote:...All we are truly doing is handing over control of our power grid to the oligarchs.

Ha ha, who do you think is running it now, Santa claus?


eyeno wrote:Piss em off and they will just cut off your power. Now they can mess with your 'individual' power on a case by case basis from the home office without ever having to come to your house. Unprecedented control. Not to mention the snooping capability.


Right, its all part of the UN's plot to invade duh'murica, go check your MRE & ammo stash now! :roll:
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby 82_28 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:28 pm

Wintler2, why is it so goddamned impossible for you to find it within yourself to entertain different styles of thought and refrain from condescension?

Wintler2 needs his/her own blog to get it out of their system. Always, feel of course that you are free to post in anyone's presence, but man, drop the condescension. You're not remotely "all that". I read your stuff, but it is probably the most well written but least interesting anything that is done here. I think you could start by digging deep within yourself and finding the remotest of remote mote of humor you may still have in your heart.

And yeah, I do think fucking Santa Claus is running the show.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby eyeno » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:15 pm

Considering that UN/NATO gang is currently bombing at least half a dozen countries i'll take that commentary with a grain of salt.
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby Burnt Hill » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:00 pm

82_28 wrote:Wintler2, why is it so goddamned impossible for you to find it within yourself to entertain different styles of thought and refrain from condescension?

Wintler2 needs his/her own blog to get it out of their system. Always, feel of course that you are free to post in anyone's presence, but man, drop the condescension. You're not remotely "all that". I read your stuff, but it is probably the most well written but least interesting anything that is done here. I think you could start by digging deep within yourself and finding the remotest of remote mote of humor you may still have in your heart.

And yeah, I do think fucking Santa Claus is running the show.

$82.28- do you have any idea how hypocritical and condescending your post is?
Besides off topic, as I am.
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby 82_28 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:36 pm

Burnt Hill wrote:
82_28 wrote:Wintler2, why is it so goddamned impossible for you to find it within yourself to entertain different styles of thought and refrain from condescension?

Wintler2 needs his/her own blog to get it out of their system. Always, feel of course that you are free to post in anyone's presence, but man, drop the condescension. You're not remotely "all that". I read your stuff, but it is probably the most well written but least interesting anything that is done here. I think you could start by digging deep within yourself and finding the remotest of remote mote of humor you may still have in your heart.

And yeah, I do think fucking Santa Claus is running the show.

$82.28- do you have any idea how hypocritical and condescending your post is?
Besides off topic, as I am.


Yeah. Well aware. Thanks.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby eyeno » Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:41 am

Burnt Hill wrote:
82_28 wrote:Wintler2, why is it so goddamned impossible for you to find it within yourself to entertain different styles of thought and refrain from condescension?

Wintler2 needs his/her own blog to get it out of their system. Always, feel of course that you are free to post in anyone's presence, but man, drop the condescension. You're not remotely "all that". I read your stuff, but it is probably the most well written but least interesting anything that is done here. I think you could start by digging deep within yourself and finding the remotest of remote mote of humor you may still have in your heart.

And yeah, I do think fucking Santa Claus is running the show.

$82.28- do you have any idea how hypocritical and condescending your post is?
Besides off topic, as I am.


Thanks 82.
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby Fixx » Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:07 am

82_28 wrote:Wintler2, why is it so goddamned impossible for you to find it within yourself to entertain different styles of thought and refrain from condescension?

Wintler2 needs his/her own blog to get it out of their system. Always, feel of course that you are free to post in anyone's presence, but man, drop the condescension. You're not remotely "all that". I read your stuff, but it is probably the most well written but least interesting anything that is done here. I think you could start by digging deep within yourself and finding the remotest of remote mote of humor you may still have in your heart.

And yeah, I do think fucking Santa Claus is running the show.


Nope, nothing wrong with Wintler's posts, I find them very interesting, you may want to look upping the quality of the content of yours though.
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby 82_28 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:53 am

Fixx wrote:
82_28 wrote:Wintler2, why is it so goddamned impossible for you to find it within yourself to entertain different styles of thought and refrain from condescension?

Wintler2 needs his/her own blog to get it out of their system. Always, feel of course that you are free to post in anyone's presence, but man, drop the condescension. You're not remotely "all that". I read your stuff, but it is probably the most well written but least interesting anything that is done here. I think you could start by digging deep within yourself and finding the remotest of remote mote of humor you may still have in your heart.

And yeah, I do think fucking Santa Claus is running the show.


Nope, nothing wrong with Wintler's posts, I find them very interesting, you may want to look upping the quality of the content of yours though.


I would just as soon quit posting if I actually gave a shit anymore. I don't. Yep, something's wrong with a lot of shit and I really don't give a fuck what anybody thinks other than that I do. However, when a member that I happen to like gets the kind of condescension I have gotten by certain members, I'm gonna step up. I have no horse in this race other than arguments occur. Condescension is out with me. Condescend me and others making thoughtful posts, well, there you have it.

That's the whole thing. I step up to make it known that a certain person has pissed me off in the past and I don't appreciate it happening to another and have done nothing to instigate a thing other than to tell them to knock it off.

That's it, that's all. I appreciate everyone here. We're all different personalities and people. Don't tell me how to be. But if you're an asshole, I'll simply just tell you what I think. Wintler was being a dick to eyeno. Period. No if ands or buts. He's done it to me before and I responded in the kind he invited.
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Re: A Thread About Smart Meters And Smart Electricity Grid

Postby wintler2 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:31 am

Smart meters, dumb response
Kevin Drum, Political Animal (Washington Monthly)
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archiv ... 011790.php

Here's a good example of consumer group shortsightedness. My local power company, Southern California Edison, wants to start rolling out "smart meters" in people's homes, an initiative that would (a) cost money but (b) almost certainly cut down electricity usage in the long run. Here's the response the LA Times got in a story today about the rollout costs:

"Edison is assuming that people will use and respond to this stuff. . . but we don't have any guaranteed benefits here," said Mindy Spatt, spokeswoman for the San Francisco-based Utility Reform Network. "The only thing that's guaranteed is the cost."

...."Whether the consumer has a smart meter or the consumer has a dumb meter, the bottom line for the consumer is that the less [electricity] they use, the less they pay, and the more they use, the more they pay," Spatt said. "That's a message I'm willing to deliver for free."

Yeah, I'm willing to deliver it for free too. In fact, I just did. But I don't expect that this post will really have much impact on my readers' electricity use. Conversely, a colorful LCD display in your home that showed you, in real time, how much electricity you were using and how much it cost, would almost certainly change your habits over time.

The way the system works is fairly simple: your old meter gets replaced by a nifty new SmartConnect meter, which then connects wirelessly to a display inside your home. It can also connect wirelessly to compatible appliances in your home and you can, if you want, program the unit to automatically turn certain appliances off if the price of electricity goes over a certain level. I haven't seen what the actual indoor meters look like, but you can get an idea here.

Scoffing at this stuff is dumb. People respond to incentives and they respond more strongly when the incentives are right in front of their faces. Sure, smart meters cost money, but there's no free lunch. It's an idea whose time has come.
(1 August 2007)
Press release: Southern California Edison has a business case forecasting more customer savings than costs from smart metering.


Businesses paid not to use power
Kristin Goff, The Ottawa Citizen
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/new ... ffd9063307

When temperatures soared across Ontario this week, businesses like Magna, Royal Group, Canada's Wonderland and Lear Corp. in southern Ontario responded by cutting back on their power use.

It was a responsible thing to do and helped the York Region's hydro service deal with the exceptional demands of near-record temperatures.

But the companies, along with others in a pool managed by Rodan Energy, got more than the satisfaction of doing their part for the community good. They got paid for not using electricity.

Rodan's payment structure "is confidential," said Caroline Lofthouse, a spokeswoman. But the concept of paying companies for what they don't use is about to become a lot more widespread. The York Region program was one of two pilots for a provincewide "demand response" program that the Ontario Power Authority hopes to introduce by the end of this month. ..
(3 Aug 2007)
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