Gold.

[freemason9]

Why is "growth" assumed to be necessary to an economy? Hyothetically, couldn't a sustaining economy be just as vital and innovative, or an economy in equilibrium?

Surely there is enough "money" available in the world at the moment to achieve almost any goal or realise any creative endeavor, if that money were actually at work in the real world rather than trapped in non-productive accounts and sublimated into the derivatives con-job.

FWIW, I agree. Growth will come to an end at some point; it is not infinitely sustainable. I basically was speaking to those capitalists that somehow think that gold is a good thing to use as a measure of value. Gold and capitalism do not mix.

[smiths]

nothing ethical, positive, sustainable or equitable mixes with capitalism

gold forms the base of the system because capitalism is the most corrosive agent ever discovered

[Joe Hillshoist]

nothing ethical, positive, sustainable or equitable mixes with capitalism

gold forms the base of the system because capitalism is the most corrosive agent ever discovered

Thats quite a deep observation.

[eyeno]

deleted for further study

[SonicG]

nothing ethical, positive, sustainable or equitable mixes with capitalism

gold forms the base of the system because capitalism is the most corrosive agent ever discovered

Indeed.

I've also yet to hear how about WTSHTF* everything is going to be functioning fine except you just need to pay with gold down at the McDonalds...Or how many of you have possession of all the gold you "own" so that, again, WTSHTF, you will have easy to access to your loot in convenient doubloon form or whatever...
When it all goes down it is either "Game Over" or, if we are lucky, the Galactic Federation of Homeopathic Socialists forces us back into a full barter/potlatch society...


*

[Marie Laveau]

nothing ethical, positive, sustainable or equitable mixes with capitalism

gold forms the base of the system because capitalism is the most corrosive agent ever discovered

Indeed.

I've also yet to hear how about WTSHTF* everything is going to be functioning fine except you just need to pay with gold down at the McDonalds...Or how many of you have possession of all the gold you "own" so that, again, WTSHTF, you will have easy to access to your loot in convenient doubloon form or whatever...
When it all goes down it is either "Game Over" or, if we are lucky, the Galactic Federation of Homeopathic Socialists forces us back into a full barter/potlatch society...


*

Hello! Here is a person who GET'S IT!

[Nordic]

Well, no, the people who "get it" are those who have money saved up that they don't want to completely lose.

If the dollar loses its value, as it has, and as it will continue to, if you hold your dollars as dollars, you're basically might as well throw some of them into the fireplace every day and burn them off one by one.

Or you can buy something like gold, which retains its value.

If you had bought some gold at, say, $600 an ounce, and could now sell it for $1800 an ounce, you're not holding out for Armageddon, you're merely protecting the money you have saved and doing quite well.

It's not black or white, it's not Armageddon or the Roaring 20's.

And if the shit totally does hit the fan, the people with gold and silver will have something to trade. For guns or toilet paper or whatever you need. The rest of you (including me now since I have none)? You're just shit out of luck. And toilet paper. And food. And medicine.

You really think there won't be an underground economy immediately? Of course there will be, there ALWAYS is.

What are you gonna trade in order to eat?

Of course, those with money, in that scenario, better hide the fact that they have money and almost nobody else does, or they'll get robbed pretty fucking quick.

Gold is money.

It's really VERY VERY simple.

And the fact that you "don't approve" of the situation is utterly irrelevant to the reality of the situation.

I don't really like the fact that I have to fart now and then, but fart I do.

[SonicG]

OK, I guess I came across pithy but it is pretty easy to demolish your arguments in a serious manner.
But you didn't answer my questions.
Do you have all of your gold in your physical possession?

What are you gonna trade in order to eat?

If it is an option, then the same thing I do now: my labor.

[2012 Countdown]

OK, I guess I came across pithy but it is pretty easy to demolish your arguments in a serious manner.
But you didn't answer my questions.
Do you have all of your gold in your physical possession?
---
If it is an option, then the same thing I do now: my labor.

Yeah, you sure told him. "Demolish" wouldn't be the word I would have used. You and the "it getter!" have no idea what you're talking about.


I could have a conversation with those who pretend to want to have one, but you constant mockery and denial of others prevents it. What is more, those who invested in PMs several years ago are up 200%+, but you continue to mock. When reasons/arguements are presented, you ingnore andbuild strawmen. The sting of such public disdain gets easier to endure with every percentage gain. But again, have no fear, your turn to mock is coming up soon. PMs will go down 20%ish so you can point and laugh. Just be sure to check where they're at in the spring.

Safety deposit boxes at the bank are $100 per year. Rent one.

[Marie Laveau]

Well, no, the people who "get it" are those who have money saved up that they don't want to completely lose.

If the dollar loses its value, as it has, and as it will continue to, if you hold your dollars as dollars, you're basically might as well throw some of them into the fireplace every day and burn them off one by one.

Or you can buy something like gold, which retains its value.

If you had bought some gold at, say, $600 an ounce, and could now sell it for $1800 an ounce, you're not holding out for Armageddon, you're merely protecting the money you have saved and doing quite well.

It's not black or white, it's not Armageddon or the Roaring 20's.

And if the shit totally does hit the fan, the people with gold and silver will have something to trade. For guns or toilet paper or whatever you need. The rest of you (including me now since I have none)? You're just shit out of luck. And toilet paper. And food. And medicine.

You really think there won't be an underground economy immediately? Of course there will be, there ALWAYS is.

What are you gonna trade in order to eat?

Of course, those with money, in that scenario, better hide the fact that they have money and almost nobody else does, or they'll get robbed pretty fucking quick.

Gold is money.

It's really VERY VERY simple.

And the fact that you "don't approve" of the situation is utterly irrelevant to the reality of the situation.

I don't really like the fact that I have to fart now and then, but fart I do.

Dude, let me tell you something. If TSHTF and someone comes to me with gold and wants to trade? No. If they want to trade eggs (I have no chickens) or fruit (I have no fruit trees) well, then we'll talk. But gold?

In the collapse of the U.S.S.R. (and Dimitri Orlov writes about this very, very well) no one was clamoring for gold. They wanted this stuff:

http://theprepared.com/content/view/129/56/

I absolutely understand where you are coming from. I do. We are conditioned to believe something that we cannot eat and that cannot keep us warm is valuable. And when a regular economy exists, it is. In reality, in many ways, gold is just as "fiat" as any other currency.

I know that statement doesn't make sense to most people because that's not what we're taught.

And I will say again: the government (just as they did in the Great Depression) will probably confiscate gold. If it comes to that point, very few people in the underground economy will want to take the risk. Of course, there will be people that do. I'm just not sure those are the people I want to take the chance of dealing with. They will probably think I have more hidden and will come to "visit" in the middle of the night. Ya know?

Also, if TSreallyandtrulyHTF? Come on, we're talking about a modern society where people think milk comes from the grocery store. Even if RURAL America/Canada/Europe/Aus/NZ/Japan,etc. It's going to be BLOODY awful.

[Marie Laveau]

Also, if a person has gold, I wouldn't recommend waiting until TSHTF to try to get something of real value for it. Besides the chaos, most people are going to be thinking: I have three shovels. What if one breaks or gets stolen? Or what if it's a long time before I can buy another one? My neighbor has more chickens than he needs, so I'll trade HIM one of my shovels for three or four chickens.

See what I mean? And you can have all the gardening tools in the world- or the gold to buy them with- and if the UPS truck doesn't deliver the spring seeds what are you gonna do?

And most people think a Burpee seed is just as viable as an open-pollinated seed. So there's that.

[Marie Laveau]

OK, I guess I came across pithy but it is pretty easy to demolish your arguments in a serious manner.
But you didn't answer my questions.
Do you have all of your gold in your physical possession?
---
If it is an option, then the same thing I do now: my labor.

Yeah, you sure told him. "Demolish" wouldn't be the word I would have used. You and the "it getter!" have no idea what you're talking about.


I could have a conversation with those who pretend to want to have one, but you constant mockery and denial of others prevents it. What is more, those who invested in PMs several years ago are up 200%+, but you continue to mock. When reasons/arguements are presented, you ingnore andbuild strawmen. The sting of such public disdain gets easier to endure with every percentage gain. But again, have no fear, your turn to mock is coming up soon. PMs will go down 20%ish so you can point and laugh. Just be sure to check where they're at in the spring.

Safety deposit boxes at the bank are $100 per year. Rent one.

Again, gold was confiscated in the last depression. They sent armed guards to all the banks. I try to get this through to my ex who thinks everything is "safe" in a safe deposit box.

I'm not mocking your understanding of gold. Most people think the way you do. And if things rumble along as the have, then you are right. If TSHTF for real? I don't think you are.

I could be wrong, but I think when (not if) this thing comes apart gold won't amount to a tinker's damn. Unless you are willing to deal with some really, really ruthless people. My neighbors will be ruthless enough for me.

Also, when you are hungry and an egg is going for the equivalent of $12 dollars a dozen (this actually happened at Virginia City during the gold rush) and someone says, "I'll take ten ounces of gold for an egg." And your kid is hungry. Well, gold won't last very long at those prices.

See, there's always that supply/demand thingy.

[Elihu]

to recapitulate:

Gold on the go
Gold sitting in vaults is one thing, and gold on the go is another. Gold on the go is as different from gold in hoards as day is from night.
Dark Ages
We no longer talk about deflation and depression. We face the Second Coming of the
Dark Ages. This time, too, the Dark Ages could last several hundred years.
People crying out in despair
Our government leaders conducting our irredeemable currency and credit program do not
understand that people can be faced with tragedy and disaster in the wake of the
collapse of the monetary system. You don’t need a war on home soil to de-industrialize your country. The United States has accomplished that feat bit-by-bit since 1971,

a dark age. ie darkness. said professor made the point that when permanennt backwardation occurred coinciding with a disintegration of the social fabric (ie collapse of society), all the gold is in hiding never to reemerge in the lifetime of its owners. and perhaps hundreds of years. i should mention that there are 160,000 metric tons of monetary gold above ground right now as we speak. london was the international clearing house for the gold standard in the nineteenth century using 125-200 metric tons of physical gold. national (all nations including the IMF) published holdings are what? less than 75,000 metric tons? above ground stocks of gold are 80-100 times annual production. whence resideth all this money? it's hiding. warnings have been sounded.

no, having some swag in a dark age ain't going to buy anyone a ticket out (althought i'd rather have some than not). that's not what this is all about. it's a question of whether we can have a voluntary, mutually beneficial, prosperous society with a tainted money supply?

i notice many here have given up on the Constitution, on liberty, on good will among men. i feel their pain. they think we need a benevolent organizing authority to impose order and vaguely acceptable outcomes for everybody. laudable. imo, as we lift up our eyes and survey the blight and desolation and hopelessness of humanity, i would submit that it has not been liberty, and free markets that have brought this about. quite the contrary. all markets have been completely rigged for a long time and with scientifically predictable results. people don't really understand how this trick works. to quote max keiser (honey trap imo), each act is a masterpiece of fraud in and of itself but the big picture is that central planning is already happening and has been for a long time. and not by accident. don't drop your weapons in this kind of warfare...

[Elihu]

75 metric tons?

sorry. <75,000 metric tons....

[Elihu]

eighteenth century

sorry, nineteenth century....