It was the babysitter???

by **Dreams End** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:26 am

HTML Comments are not allowed

by **thurnandtaxis** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:47 pm

DE, your post is not showing up.

by **Dreams End** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:34 pm

That was my post...just wanted everyone to know that HTML posts are not allowed. Sigh. I'll reprint later maybe.

by **Dreams End** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:02 am

removing personal info.

by **blanc** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:15 pm

quite a few of them. extreme aversion to knives is something 'usual' cutting isn't good news however its dressed up. Who else suggested baptising the knife with her blood - I'm confused. Actually, I'm more than confused, I'm spooked by the idea that this ceremony needs there to be a knife. Distrustful. Wiccan groups (this will draw some flack, but I'm only telling it like it is) have been closely associated with abuser set ups Disclaimer - so have, for example, some Christian groups. DE you lack concrete information about her abuse. Who knows if it was the babysitter or someone else? She does, somewhere in her mind. And she's still ill. I don't think you can do detective work on her past via the web.

by **Dreams End** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:21 pm

removing personal info

by **blanc** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:31 pm

Knife aversions I have come across in ra have been related to,'ceremonial' use - generally killing - and also in this 2 victims, one a forced participant, hence the survivor with the aversion. (this being distinct from being threatened with a knife, though this would be pretty terrifying.) That's why the ceremonial status of the knife in the Wicca set up gave me a bad feeling. I don't like the sound of any of it to be honest.

by **Dreams End** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:01 pm

wish I could just delete the thread...not trying to be mysterious...but it was stupid to post this stuff here.

by **slimmouse** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:35 pm

"infinite love is the only truth, everything else is just illusion" Albeit a painful and sickening illusion ? Energy is all there is, and energy is nothing but eternal consciousness. That is about the best I can do. Good luck man.

by **Avalon** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:38 pm

I'm glad to hear that there have been some improvements with Debbie. That Sarah is now communicating (directly to outsiders, or via Wisper or other internal parts?) sounds like positive movement. I agree that you've got good reason to be concerned about the idea that the latest revelations might rule out any possibility of familial abuse. I have not been personally aware as far as I know, of any legitimate Wiccan or neo-Pagan group that would use an athame (sacred knife) in such a way that it would draw blood. Some use a white-handled knife known as a boline to cut herbs for rituals, but most witches would have an athame as a purely sacred tool. There are those of us who are known as "kitchen witches," who feel that it is okay to make magical and ceremonial use of common objects. But that said, drawing blood purposively with a religious tool is not something that I can see being condoned. If purifying a ritual knife with blood is Debbie's viewpoint, what do her fellow coveners thank about it? Is their Wiccan (or their general life-skills) practice sufficiently experienced and mature that they can deal with the unusual things Debbie brings to her practice? If further blood on that knife would "profane" it, does that mean that she'd just use a mundane knife to cut herself in the future? Or is this something that could be useful for weaning her off the cutting habit? (I'm thinking about what Karen Pryor has said about putting a behavior that is not wanted on cue, and eventually just not giving the cue). Bottom line is, one of the very few doctrinal values that is an inherent part of describing ones practice as Wiccan (and which many other Pagans have adopted), is adherance to the Wiccan Rede: "An it harm none, do what ye will." This means not harming yourself, just as much as not harming others. It's a complex world and often hard to determine which is the path of the least harm to the greatest number, but having that as a guideline helps. If her spirituality is important, perhaps framing questions about her behavior in terms of the Rede might help. Wiccan groups (this will draw some flack, but I'm only telling it like it is) have been closely associated with abuser set ups -- blanc Blanc, if you are "telling it like it is," perhaps you would be so kind as to corroborate this inflammatory statement with names, locations, and information on which particular Wiccan traditions practiced have links with abusers. Still, I should probably trust the process. Parts of her are having their stories told and finding some peace. And I think the stories of those parts are true...they just simply are not ALL of the stories there are to tell. I think you have to honor that, if it seems to be working. Yes, there are still going to be times that are difficult for Debbie. But if she is making progress, it's a good sign that something is working. I know that time in sacred space with others of a like mind is something I both deeply value and need for my own peace of mind and centering.

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:15 am

From what i understand of bloodletting, or of cutting yourself in response to abuse, its a matter of pain relief. Sometimes physical pain is the only thing that can counter the emotional pain of remembering the event. The pain of cutting yourself is supposed to ease the pain of the experience, or perhaps make it part of reality, instead of being a completely internal thing. I dunno about this personally, from the inside, but this information comes from an impeccable source. That is exactly what they said. Well words to that effect. Its not a rational process, its irrational and instant, like fight or flight. It is irrational and instantaneous. Well in my experience it is. But when the person concerned thought they were cutting me instead of themselves they stopped immediately. In indigenous communities, scarring is a result of initiation (often). This is a painful process, and has many layered meaning. However essentially it is about control. The person being initiated must have the self control to deal with the process, in some cases they cut themselves, in other cases others make the incisions. Those scars are considered a mark of pride and coming of age afterward. Not a result of traumatic abuse. Indigenous people that have not been initiated have commented to me that they are missing something in their lives and that process is central to it. (Its a short jump from here to female genital mutliation, something I find uncomfortable). <blockquote>Quote:<hr>If further blood on that knife would "profane" it, does that mean that she'd just use a mundane knife to cut herself in the future? Or is this something that could be useful for weaning her off the cutting habit? (I'm thinking about what Karen Pryor has said about putting a behavior that is not wanted on cue, and eventually just not giving the cue).<hr></blockquote> Another thing about aboriginal cultures is that some view the willing shedding of their own blood in rituals as a sacred thing. Another quote from a mate. "When you go into the bush, the bush will take some blood from you." its a give and take thing. Last bit was me paraphrasing what he said. perhaps in the context of what avalon said, she is trying to control her self harm by making herself sacred. Maybe thats the only thing that will be powerful enough to overcome the harm she has suffered.

by **Joe Hillshoist** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:03 am

i just had a word to my "impeccable source". <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Or is this something that could be useful for weaning her off the cutting habit? (I'm thinking about what Karen Pryor has said about putting a behavior that is not wanted on cue, and eventually just not giving the cue).<hr></blockquote> Apparantly this has a lot of truth to it. It is an essential part in allowing Debbie to feel in control, to have power over her behaviour. Apparantly a lot of the trauma associated with abuse is the invalidation of your will. The feeling your will doesn't matter, has no power and is wortless and incapable of any good/anything good. If her use of the sacred knife and the Wiccan group is part of overcoming this process then it will probably help in her healing. If not you may have to talk to her about it. Wicca is not evil per se, any more than Christianity. She may be involved with a group that is trying to manipulate her re her past abuse. Or she may be involved in a group full of people who are not really mature enough to be responsible for their own souls, let alone someone elses. Or they may be brilliant. Only time will tell. DE, from my perspective the thing you can best do, apart from observing her and being honest and as non controlling as possible in those observations, is support her choice. get to understand Wicca, and wiccans so you can make a judgement based on wicca's standards as to whether the group she is with is helping or harming her. She may be programmed to choose wicca as some abuse protocol, but she may be doing it out of some recognition of something good in it. either way, its her choice and once she has made it you have to support her, not just in the choice but making it work. IE she is programmed to go to this wicca group and be recontrolled, you get to understand wicca and find another group not aligned with that agenda, and introduce her to them. Helping her get her personal power back is the only thing that will help her heal herself. nothing and noone can do anything for her other than that. To do that she has to feel she has the right and the ability to make decisions, act on them and be supported in them, even if they are the wrong decisions. Something my source said was about the power of the past. The past is the past, but if your past becomes your present the nightmare continues. If the past has powerlessness and pain, and pain is a part of life, perhaps the present and the future can still have pain, but not the powerlessness. Taking away someones will, and their ability to choose and interact is a bastard thing to do. But when you deal with people who have been through this, if you are seen to be trying to invalidate their will, they may begin to see you in the guise of their abuser. Its not an easy path to take.

by **biaothanatoi** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:59 am

Hi DE, <blockquote>Quote:<hr>She's actually been doing so much better. Much more energy...far fewer days of not leaving the bedroom.<hr></blockquote> She may well be using the memory of one instance of abuse as a way of ameliorating the pain of a sharper betrayal. The increase in functionality could be a combination of these – e.g. Identifying the babysitter is a genuine breakthrough, lifting a bit of the weight, providing hope – but also momentarily blotting out the weight of something heavier. <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Then there's the spiritual stuff. I really don't get a knee jerk anti-Wiccan attitude but as this was developing she also joined 3 other folks in a small coven and they had their first circle last night, in fact.<hr></blockquote> Could go either way – similar to what happens when survivors get involved in S&M. It can provide a healthy context to relive but then rework some of the trauma – bringing the issue up but then allowing the survivor to play with it as an adult, figure it out on their own terms, not someone else’s. Of course, it can all go wrong as well. She had any number of choices to “christen” her knife but she chose self-mutilation. If the group starts up a regular thing, she’s about to see a whole lot more pentragrams, knives, candals, cups, alters, etc, and since the states achieved in ritual, hypnosis and dissociation are pretty much the same thing … well, I don’t blame you for being concerned. The impulse to re-enact the source of a trauma can be an opportunity for healing, but it's often another instance of self-harm. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p216.ezboard.com/brigorousintuition.showUserPublicProfile?gid=biaothanatoi@rigorousintuition>biaothanatoi</A> at: 6/26/06 2:17 am

by **biaothanatoi** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:16 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>There are those of us who are known as "kitchen witches," who feel that it is okay to make magical and ceremonial use of common objects.<hr></blockquote> Known as "kitchen witches" ever since the phrase was popularised by some random Llewellyn book from the late nineties. "Purchase your own identity for only $29.95 - and we'll through in a fabricated history and a persecution complex for free!" <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Blanc, if you are "telling it like it is," perhaps you would be so kind as to corroborate this inflammatory statement with names, locations, and information on which particular Wiccan traditions practiced have links with abusers.<hr></blockquote> This ridiculous request shows you know nothing about this subject - RA, DID or the manner in which abusers use a variety of groups to get what they want. I've heard corroborating accounts from practicing Wiccans across the States, and here in Australia, about instances of ritualistic violence in Wiccan covens that included adult-child sexual assault. We've got a Wiccan in Melbourne who has just been imprisoned indefinitely after ritualistically abusing and torturing two children and forcing them into pornography and prostitution as part of their initiation into his "dark coven". I know from other sources that there is a "dark coven" in Melbourne that appears to be acting as a front for a group of RA perps. But one of the most common fronts for perps are fundamentalist Christian churches, daycare centres, and sunday schools. Perps don't care about the creed they hijack. So stop the aggrieved posing and try listening for once - particularly to someone like Blanc, who has more experience in this field then you will ever know.

by **Dreams End** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:39 am

It was the babysitter???

It was the babysitter???

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