20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

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20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby Jeff » Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:59 am

Our Lives, Controlled From Some Guy’s Couch

Aug 14

Until I talked to Nick Bostrom, a philosopher at Oxford University, it never occurred to me that our universe might be somebody else’s hobby. I hadn’t imagined that the omniscient, omnipotent creator of the heavens and earth could be an advanced version of a guy who spends his weekends building model railroads or overseeing video-game worlds like the Sims.

But now it seems quite possible. In fact, if you accept a pretty reasonable assumption of Dr. Bostrom’s, it is almost a mathematical certainty that we are living in someone else’s computer simulation.

This simulation would be similar to the one in “The Matrix,” in which most humans don’t realize that their lives and their world are just illusions created in their brains while their bodies are suspended in vats of liquid. But in Dr. Bostrom’s notion of reality, you wouldn’t even have a body made of flesh. Your brain would exist only as a network of computer circuits.

You couldn’t, as in “The Matrix,” unplug your brain and escape from your vat to see the physical world. You couldn’t see through the illusion except by using the sort of logic employed by Dr. Bostrom, the director of the Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford.

Dr. Bostrom assumes that technological advances could produce a computer with more processing power than all the brains in the world, and that advanced humans, or “posthumans,” could run “ancestor simulations” of their evolutionary history by creating virtual worlds inhabited by virtual people with fully developed virtual nervous systems.

Some computer experts have projected, based on trends in processing power, that we will have such a computer by the middle of this century, but it doesn’t matter for Dr. Bostrom’s argument whether it takes 50 years or 5 million years. If civilization survived long enough to reach that stage, and if the posthumans were to run lots of simulations for research purposes or entertainment, then the number of virtual ancestors they created would be vastly greater than the number of real ancestors.

There would be no way for any of these ancestors to know for sure whether they were virtual or real, because the sights and feelings they’d experience would be indistinguishable. But since there would be so many more virtual ancestors, any individual could figure that the odds made it nearly certain that he or she was living in a virtual world.

The math and the logic are inexorable once you assume that lots of simulations are being run. But there are a couple of alternative hypotheses, as Dr. Bostrom points out. One is that civilization never attains the technology to run simulations (perhaps because it self-destructs before reaching that stage). The other hypothesis is that posthumans decide not to run the simulations.

“This kind of posthuman might have other ways of having fun, like stimulating their pleasure centers directly,” Dr. Bostrom says. “Maybe they wouldn’t need to do simulations for scientific reasons because they’d have better methodologies for understanding their past. It’s quite possible they would have moral prohibitions against simulating people, although the fact that something is immoral doesn’t mean it won’t happen.”

Dr. Bostrom doesn’t pretend to know which of these hypotheses is more likely, but he thinks none of them can be ruled out. “My gut feeling, and it’s nothing more than that,” he says, “is that there’s a 20 percent chance we’re living in a computer simulation.”

My gut feeling is that the odds are better than 20 percent, maybe better than even. I think it’s highly likely that civilization could endure to produce those supercomputers. And if owners of the computers were anything like the millions of people immersed in virtual worlds like Second Life, SimCity and World of Warcraft, they’d be running simulations just to get a chance to control history — or maybe give themselves virtual roles as Cleopatra or Napoleon.

It’s unsettling to think of the world being run by a futuristic computer geek, although we might at last dispose of that of classic theological question: How could God allow so much evil in the world? For the same reason there are plagues and earthquakes and battles in games like World of Warcraft. Peace is boring, Dude.

A more practical question is how to behave in a computer simulation. Your first impulse might be to say nothing matters anymore because nothing’s real. But just because your neural circuits are made of silicon (or whatever posthumans would use in their computers) instead of carbon doesn’t mean your feelings are any less real.

David J. Chalmers, a philosopher at the Australian National University, says Dr. Bostrom’s simulation hypothesis isn’t a cause for skepticism, but simply a different metaphysical explanation of our world. Whatever you’re touching now — a sheet of paper, a keyboard, a coffee mug — is real to you even if it’s created on a computer circuit rather than fashioned out of wood, plastic or clay.

You still have the desire to live as long as you can in this virtual world — and in any simulated afterlife that the designer of this world might bestow on you. Maybe that means following traditional moral principles, if you think the posthuman designer shares those morals and would reward you for being a good person.

Or maybe, as suggested by Robin Hanson, an economist at George Mason University, you should try to be as interesting as possible, on the theory that the designer is more likely to keep you around for the next simulation. (For more on survival strategies in a computer simulation, go to www.nytimes.com/tierneylab.)

Of course, it’s tough to guess what the designer would be like. He or she might have a body made of flesh or plastic, but the designer might also be a virtual being living inside the computer of a still more advanced form of intelligence. There could be layer upon layer of simulations until you finally reached the architect of the first simulation — the Prime Designer, let’s call him or her (or it).

Then again, maybe the Prime Designer wouldn’t allow any of his or her creations to start simulating their own worlds. Once they got smart enough to do so, they’d presumably realize, by Dr. Bostrom’s logic, that they themselves were probably simulations. Would that ruin the fun for the Prime Designer?

If simulations stop once the simulated inhabitants understand what’s going on, then I really shouldn’t be spreading Dr. Bostrom’s ideas. But if you’re still around to read this, I guess the Prime Designer is reasonably tolerant, or maybe curious to see how we react once we start figuring out the situation.

It’s also possible that there would be logistical problems in creating layer upon layer of simulations. There might not be enough computing power to continue the simulation if billions of inhabitants of a virtual world started creating their own virtual worlds with billions of inhabitants apiece.

If that’s true, it’s bad news for the futurists who think we’ll have a computer this century with the power to simulate all the inhabitants on earth. We’d start our simulation, expecting to observe a new virtual world, but instead our own world might end — not with a bang, not with a whimper, but with a message on the Prime Designer’s computer.

It might be something clunky like “Insufficient Memory to Continue Simulation.” But I like to think it would be simple and familiar: “Game Over.”

New York Times
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby Simulist » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:02 pm

Jeff wrote:Our Lives, Controlled From Some Guy’s Couch

Aug 14

Until I talked to Nick Bostrom, a philosopher at Oxford University, it never occurred to me that our universe might be somebody else’s hobby. I hadn’t imagined that the omniscient, omnipotent creator of the heavens and earth could be an advanced version of a guy who spends his weekends building model railroads or overseeing video-game worlds like the Sims.

But now it seems quite possible. In fact, if you accept a pretty reasonable assumption of Dr. Bostrom’s, it is almost a mathematical certainty that we are living in someone else’s computer simulation.

This simulation would be similar to the one in “The Matrix,” in which most humans don’t realize that their lives and their world are just illusions created in their brains while their bodies are suspended in vats of liquid. But in Dr. Bostrom’s notion of reality, you wouldn’t even have a body made of flesh. Your brain would exist only as a network of computer circuits.

You couldn’t, as in “The Matrix,” unplug your brain and escape from your vat to see the physical world. You couldn’t see through the illusion except by using the sort of logic employed by Dr. Bostrom, the director of the Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford.

Dr. Bostrom assumes that technological advances could produce a computer with more processing power than all the brains in the world, and that advanced humans, or “posthumans,” could run “ancestor simulations” of their evolutionary history by creating virtual worlds inhabited by virtual people with fully developed virtual nervous systems.

Some computer experts have projected, based on trends in processing power, that we will have such a computer by the middle of this century, but it doesn’t matter for Dr. Bostrom’s argument whether it takes 50 years or 5 million years. If civilization survived long enough to reach that stage, and if the posthumans were to run lots of simulations for research purposes or entertainment, then the number of virtual ancestors they created would be vastly greater than the number of real ancestors.

There would be no way for any of these ancestors to know for sure whether they were virtual or real, because the sights and feelings they’d experience would be indistinguishable. But since there would be so many more virtual ancestors, any individual could figure that the odds made it nearly certain that he or she was living in a virtual world.

The math and the logic are inexorable once you assume that lots of simulations are being run. But there are a couple of alternative hypotheses, as Dr. Bostrom points out. One is that civilization never attains the technology to run simulations (perhaps because it self-destructs before reaching that stage). The other hypothesis is that posthumans decide not to run the simulations.

“This kind of posthuman might have other ways of having fun, like stimulating their pleasure centers directly,” Dr. Bostrom says. “Maybe they wouldn’t need to do simulations for scientific reasons because they’d have better methodologies for understanding their past. It’s quite possible they would have moral prohibitions against simulating people, although the fact that something is immoral doesn’t mean it won’t happen.”

Dr. Bostrom doesn’t pretend to know which of these hypotheses is more likely, but he thinks none of them can be ruled out. “My gut feeling, and it’s nothing more than that,” he says, “is that there’s a 20 percent chance we’re living in a computer simulation.”

My gut feeling is that the odds are better than 20 percent, maybe better than even. I think it’s highly likely that civilization could endure to produce those supercomputers. And if owners of the computers were anything like the millions of people immersed in virtual worlds like Second Life, SimCity and World of Warcraft, they’d be running simulations just to get a chance to control history — or maybe give themselves virtual roles as Cleopatra or Napoleon.

It’s unsettling to think of the world being run by a futuristic computer geek, although we might at last dispose of that of classic theological question: How could God allow so much evil in the world? For the same reason there are plagues and earthquakes and battles in games like World of Warcraft. Peace is boring, Dude.

A more practical question is how to behave in a computer simulation. Your first impulse might be to say nothing matters anymore because nothing’s real. But just because your neural circuits are made of silicon (or whatever posthumans would use in their computers) instead of carbon doesn’t mean your feelings are any less real.

David J. Chalmers, a philosopher at the Australian National University, says Dr. Bostrom’s simulation hypothesis isn’t a cause for skepticism, but simply a different metaphysical explanation of our world. Whatever you’re touching now — a sheet of paper, a keyboard, a coffee mug — is real to you even if it’s created on a computer circuit rather than fashioned out of wood, plastic or clay.

You still have the desire to live as long as you can in this virtual world — and in any simulated afterlife that the designer of this world might bestow on you. Maybe that means following traditional moral principles, if you think the posthuman designer shares those morals and would reward you for being a good person.

Or maybe, as suggested by Robin Hanson, an economist at George Mason University, you should try to be as interesting as possible, on the theory that the designer is more likely to keep you around for the next simulation. (For more on survival strategies in a computer simulation, go to http://www.nytimes.com/tierneylab.)

Of course, it’s tough to guess what the designer would be like. He or she might have a body made of flesh or plastic, but the designer might also be a virtual being living inside the computer of a still more advanced form of intelligence. There could be layer upon layer of simulations until you finally reached the architect of the first simulation — the Prime Designer, let’s call him or her (or it).

Then again, maybe the Prime Designer wouldn’t allow any of his or her creations to start simulating their own worlds. Once they got smart enough to do so, they’d presumably realize, by Dr. Bostrom’s logic, that they themselves were probably simulations. Would that ruin the fun for the Prime Designer?

If simulations stop once the simulated inhabitants understand what’s going on, then I really shouldn’t be spreading Dr. Bostrom’s ideas. But if you’re still around to read this, I guess the Prime Designer is reasonably tolerant, or maybe curious to see how we react once we start figuring out the situation.

It’s also possible that there would be logistical problems in creating layer upon layer of simulations. There might not be enough computing power to continue the simulation if billions of inhabitants of a virtual world started creating their own virtual worlds with billions of inhabitants apiece.

If that’s true, it’s bad news for the futurists who think we’ll have a computer this century with the power to simulate all the inhabitants on earth. We’d start our simulation, expecting to observe a new virtual world, but instead our own world might end — not with a bang, not with a whimper, but with a message on the Prime Designer’s computer.

It might be something clunky like “Insufficient Memory to Continue Simulation.” But I like to think it would be simple and familiar: “Game Over.”

New York Times

Re-quoting the opening post in this thread, and adding to it a link to a good (and fairly brief) interview (mp3) on The Simulation Argument by Dr. Nick Bostrom from Oxford. The interview with him took place on August 14, 2011.

A link to download the interview.

A link to Nick's site.
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby Twyla LaSarc » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:41 pm

I guess, in some twisted way that is an argument FOR the existence of god.

I never get the good simulations. :tear Bummer.
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby tazmic » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:46 pm

THE FUTURE OF HUMAN EVOLUTION
Abstract ~ Evolutionary development is sometimes thought of as exhibiting an inexorable trend towards higher, more complex, and normatively worthwhile forms of life. This paper explores some dystopian scenarios where freewheeling evolutionary developments, while continuing to produce complex and intelligent forms of organization, lead to the gradual elimination of all forms of being that we care about. We then consider how such catastrophic outcomes could be avoided and argue that under certain conditions the only possible remedy would be a globally coordinated policy to control human evolution by modifying the fitness function of future intelligent life forms.

http://www.nickbostrom.com/fut/evolution.html

Too much worth quoting. Here's a mixup (I tend to read things backwards, it's quicker...)

Contrary to the Panglossian view, current evidence does not warrant any great confidence in the belief that the default course of future human evolution points in a desirable direction. In particular, we have examined a couple of dystopian scenarios in which evolutionary competition leads to the extinction of the life forms we regard as valuable. Intrinsically worthwhile experience could turn out not to be adaptive in the future.

The only way to avoid these outcomes, if they do indeed represent the default trajectory, is to assume control over evolution. It was argued that this would require the creation of a singleton. The singleton would lack external competitors, and its decision mechanism would be sufficiently integrated to enable it to solve internal coordination problems, in particular the problem of how to reshape the fitness function for its internal agent ecology to favor eudaemonic types. A mere local power could also attempt to do this, but it would thereby decrease its competitiveness and ensure its own eventual demise. Long-term control of evolution requires global coordination.

A singleton need not be a monolith (except in the trivial sense that has some kind of mechanism or decision procedure that enables it to solve internal coordination problems). There are many possible singleton constitutions: a singleton could be a democratic world government, a benevolent and overwhelmingly powerful superintelligent machine, a world dictatorship, a stable alliance of leading powers, or even something as abstract as a generally diffused moral code that included provisions for ensuring its own stability and enforcement.

Increased social transparency, such as may result from advances in surveillance technology or lie detection, could facilitate the development of a singleton. Deliberate international political initiatives could also lead to the gradual emergence of a singleton, and such initiatives might be dramatically catalyzed by ‘wild card’ events such as a series of cataclysms that highlighted the disadvantages of a fractured world order.
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby seemslikeadream » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:58 pm

[quote="tazmic"](I tend to read things backwards, it's quicker...)


I do too....always thought it was because I am left handed
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby tazmic » Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:52 pm

seemslikeadream wrote:
tazmic wrote:(I tend to read things backwards, it's quicker...)

I do too....always thought it was because I am left handed

Wow, that made me think, as I'm left handed also (for writing). But then I remembered it's natural effect on opening a book, and then that I had thought the same way before, just not for a long time. Just shows how much I read online now. Thanks for the memory :)

It does seem more natural to me, if I am trying to understand something, which begins as an encounter with something poorly seen, to start from a position closer to the end product, a functional organic map of that terrain (which may initially be rather simplistic, or even wrong), and to construct and develop it according to my particular needs and proclivities as I stumble around trying to improve my vision, instead of enduring the authors linearisation of their own map which may remain unknown to me until they have finished repackaging their knowledge.

Why would I attempt to develop an understanding of a system by doing the opposite of trying to understand it's linear exposition? Books are written backwards.

I guess I'd still rather play with things.
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby seemslikeadream » Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:33 pm

tazmic wrote:
seemslikeadream wrote:
tazmic wrote:(I tend to read things backwards, it's quicker...)

I do too....always thought it was because I am left handed

Wow, that made me think, as I'm left handed also (for writing).


I write left handed too but can write with my right hand and do a lot of things better righty. I can write with both hands at the same time...writing backwards with my left hand and forwards with my right (same words of course.

like this


It is so very much easier for me to read from a computer screen than from a piece of paper but I still tend to start at the end....the temptation of opening a book backwards is gone but not forgotten :)
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby 82_28 » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:43 pm

Interesting all around. I'm a leftie as well and I used to read backwards. I always jump to the end of things and then ply my way up -- if interesting enough I would read it as intended. I'm also slightly ambi as well. All fine movements are done on the left side and all powerful movements on the right, such as throwing, kicking, batting, punching if I had to, etc. And the right hand is slightly larger.
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby blanc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:44 am

More cats are left handed, sorry pawed, than right.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... handed-cat
I just asked mine if he thinks he's a simulation. Reply was ambiguous.
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby Laodicean » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:59 am

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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby Stephen Morgan » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:19 am

Doesn't matter.
Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible. -- Lawrence of Arabia
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby Occult Means Hidden » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:37 am

20%? That's like saying there's a 42% chance there is a God. Sorry, but the base data is too bare to start assigning probability percentages to currently unanswerable existential conundrums. Fuck your calculations. Just an attention grabber, like the rest of modern philosophy, Chalmers, etc. It's a fun thought experiment though.
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby Occult Means Hidden » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:59 am

I'd like to add that theconsequence of living in a simulation is likely meaningless. I agree with SM here. Saying you live in a simulation is the same as saying there are at least two "levels" of reality. Our deep level and the simulation's origin. But you can just as easily claim a simulation of a simulation. It's no different than Dante's levels of hell or Budhist levels of existence or the 10 quabbalistic levels of reality. Take your pick, every spiritual tradition has multiple levels of reality- though less apparent in monotheism. It's speculation if there are two or if there are thirty. Absolutely unprovable, and probably irrelevant anyway. The existential dread that arises from the fear of "someone pulling the plug" is akin to being scared of your shadow. I wish I had a doctorate degree in philosophy. :moresarcasm
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby Spiro C. Thiery » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:56 am

Great news: not only is the drone program guided by a gamer somewhere in a bunker thousands of miles away from the target, but neither player, nor victim is real.

If the belief in simulation reality ever took hold and spread to the extent that the Abrahamic religions have, then Pascal's Wager would be to remain our brother's keeper despite evidence that he isn't even real.
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Re: 20% chance we're living in a simulation - Oxford prof

Postby Saurian Tail » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:23 am

You couldn’t see through the illusion except by using the sort of logic employed by Dr. Bostrom ...

In my opinion, the primacy of deductive logic in philosophy is _the_ mind fuck. People believe all sorts of absurd things because they are internally consistent and their mind has been forced closed by that consistency.

Induction is our primary way of knowing things. Abduction is a very useful tool for guessing at things. Deduction provides a check on consistency.

Deduction plays the supportive role. Kant, Decartes, et al have taken deductive logic to new heights. We don't need evidence. Pure reason will suffice. The real world need not intrude on the beauty of our thoughts.

The Matrix runs on deduction. Culture is not your friend. Waking up can be characterized by the recognition that you have been mentally trapped.
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