America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:58 pm

vanlose kid wrote:thank the feds.

The Caging of America
Why do we lock up so many people?
by Adam Gopnik January 30, 2012

Image
Six million people are under correctional supervision [that's SCIENTIFIC, yo] in the U.S.—more than were in Stalin’s gulags.


Great article, just read the whole thing, am going to steal it for a new thread.

Don't know what this is supposed to mean, in the context of this thread. That the existence of a different form of totalist oppression and organized cruelty today somehow shows that the institution of chattel slavery as practiced in the southern states never ended, or that a fight against it was pointless, or not.

I shouldn't be taking bait from such a short comment on your part, but to say simply "thank the feds" is curiously slanted, and it prompts some thoughts:

The vast majority of prisoners are state prisoners. Incarceration rates and criminal justice policies vary greatly by state. This remains the area in which states maintain the greatest sovereignty. States have always had the vast majority of police forces, prosecutors and criminal judges, and prisons. Their integration within federally coordinated systems has been many decades in the making, and is still not completel USG has often led the way in promoting and establishing the criminological theories and strategies underlying the enormous expansion of the country's 50 state and considerable federal prison systems. But the federal government has also followed. States have originated at least as many of the cutting-edge developments leading up to the present size and form of the prison-industrial complex, including its use as a private-profit center, as have federal initiatives. Read the part above about the popular backlash in the 1970s and 1980s, very largely identified at the time with crime as an all-encompassing fear, and believe me as someone who remembers it. There was fear, crime was a constant concern, and people got extremely reactionary because of it. They weren't going to stop and assess all variables, like Gopnik does here with the aid of hindsight and a fine mind educated in critical thinking, and try to work out the most intelligent and humane ways of dealing with it. They certainly weren't going to do international comparisons and ask how countries with decreasing incarceration rates may have also seen a decrease in crime. They wanted to vote for Dirty Harry, and repeatedly they did.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby eyeno » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:09 pm

jackriddler wrote:
The vast majority of prisoners are state prisoners. Incarceration rates and criminal justice policies vary greatly by state. This remains the area in which states maintain the greatest sovereignty.



Due to federal guideline there are many prisoners in prisons because the local judge was stripped of autonomy. State prisoners locked up because the judge had to follow federal guidelines effectively makes them federal prisoners for all practical purposes. The local judge may have given them a much lighter sentence had his discretion been intact. From my perspective this creates a federal prisoner.

(mandatory minimum sentencing - harsher sentencing for drug offenses) "Along with the stepped-up pace of arrests in the 1980s, legislatures throughout the country adopted harsher sentencing laws in regard to drug offenses. The federal system, in particular, led the way with the passage of the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986 and the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988. Among a number of provisions, these laws created a host of severe mandatory minimum sentencing laws for drug offenses and affected the calibration of the federal Sentencing Guidelines, which were being formulated simultaneous to these statutory changes. The result of these developments was to remove discretion from the sentencing judge to consider the range of factors pertaining to the individual and the offense that would normally be an integral aspect of the sentencing process, thereby increasing the number of individuals in federal court exposed to a term of incarceration for a drug offense."
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/mms
User avatar
eyeno
 
Posts: 1878
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:22 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby Laodicean » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:39 pm



Prison-based Gerrymandering = the Three-Fifths Compromise

http://www.prisonersofthecensus.org
User avatar
Laodicean
 
Posts: 3525
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:39 pm
Blog: View Blog (16)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:00 pm

eyeno wrote:Due to federal guideline there are many prisoners in prisons because the local judge was stripped of autonomy. State prisoners locked up because the judge had to follow federal guidelines effectively makes them federal prisoners for all practical purposes. The local judge may have given them a much lighter sentence had his discretion been intact. From my perspective this creates a federal prisoner.


This is only part of the story, a part I have acknowledged. These policies are a great wrong. To not acknowledge other important and undeniable factors is also wrong. Some states choose harsher laws, enforcement policies and penalties than others. Not all states have three (or two) strikes laws for state crimes, the majority of prosecuted crime. It's no less barbaric, no less a violation of human rights, and no less an exercise in illegitimate sovereignty if Utah imposes a harsher sentence for possessing a joint than Vermont, or the federal government. I am not for federal sovereignty over the states. I am not for state sovereignty. I am for democratic sovereignty of all the governing institutions - We the People - within the limits of a republic in which the universal rights of all human beings to life and liberty are paramount. Tyranny is no less odious and no less powerful in its impact on individuals and societies if the nominal seat of government is in a state capital rather than Washington.

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby publius » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:49 pm

Erasmus of Rotterdam was a moral authority who condemned war. Abraham Lincoln was a moral authority who perpetuated war and that ruinous war, I add, has driven our "Manifest Destiny" as soldiers and worker bees and consumers for this corporate state since the Civil War was fought by the North-more exactly by a Republican governmental faction, the Executive Branch- to prevent the South from self determination. This was a war of choice. Even without benefit of 20/20 hindsight all serious minds were well aware of the castrophe of civil war. The South could not but want to be free of one party Republican rule and the rising Fascist Federal state required war, as did Rome, for it's power.
.
Therefore, and I think correctly, this civil war was a colonial subjugation of the wealthiest portion of the old union by the nascent nexus of monied interests, sectional sentiment and the grasping calculations of powerful knots of men scattered across the world. This nexus which becomes Federalist Fascism and War Dictatorship as expressed in the United States. The deeper point is that Federal Fascism is one party corporate rule and that is the war party. The zeitgeist favored Lincoln waging war and what resulted from this war is dysfunctional Federal feralism. The first triumph of the Fascists was the crushing of the South. Perhaps the second was Reconstruction, then the triumph over the notion of Republic itself by the creation of a UNITED STATES, and today after a long series of disasters from Spain to Old Glory in Afghanistan where the grapes of wrath are stored, still we are told by serious men running for Federal political office that hecatombs of American dead move the spirtual in man rapidly along the evolutionary path of the killer ape towards Emancipation.
“To think is easy. To act is hard. But the hardest thing in the world is to act in accordance with your thinking.”
― Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
User avatar
publius
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:39 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby American Dream » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:13 pm

Intelligence Report, Summer 2000, Issue Number: 99

White Lies



Brooks D. Simpson, a professor at Arizona State University, is a leading historian of 19th-century American political and military history whose work concentrates on the Civil War and Reconstruction era. The author or co-author of nine books, including studies of Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses S. Grant, William T. Sherman and Reconstruction policy and politics, Simpson serves as co-editor of the University of Nebraska's "Great Campaigns of the Civil War" series and the same institution's Civil War battlefield series.

In recent years, he has followed the development of an increasingly shrill neo-Confederate movement and particularly the use of misleading or plainly false information by many of its ideologues.

The Intelligence Report interviewed Simpson about neo-Confederate myths of the Civil War period, including the notions that that the war had almost nothing to do with slavery; that Lincoln supported the "peculiar institution"; that many thousands of blacks fought voluntarily for the Confederacy; that Confederate general Robert E. Lee opposed human bondage; and that the South's population and culture are fundamentally "Anglo-Celtic."


Intelligence Report: Let's talk about some of the unorthodox views of modern neo-Confederate ideologues. One of their key contentions is that the Civil War wasn't about slavery at all, that it was fundamentally a clash of two differing economic systems. Is there anything to that?

Simpson: First of all, without slavery there's no Civil War in the first place, there's no irreconcilable conflict, so that's a sine qua non.

Second, when people talk about conflicting economic systems, obviously the root of the conflict was that the South's economic system was based upon plantation slavery.

So one can't talk about different economic systems without once again coming back to the issue of slavery. That was fundamental to what the South was about.

There is a strange paradox here. These people deride what they call political correctness, and yet one of their first missions is to whitewash the Confederacy of any connection with slavery. They actually seem sensitive to any possibility that the Confederacy is linked with race, and want to absolve the Confederacy of any charges of racism at all.

You can see that in the fight over the Confederate flag, where the neo-Confederates say, "This is heritage, not hate. It has nothing to do with race at all." At the same time they're essentially defending white supremacy, they deny race has anything to do with it.

IR: So you see these neo-Confederates, the leaders and thinkers of groups like the [url]League of the South[/url] (LOS), as basically white supremacist?

Simpson: They certainly want the revival of the principles of the Confederacy, and one those principles would in fact be white supremacy, unquestioned and explicit. The racism that's woven into their comments is often quite astonishing.

IR: What actually was the Confederate view of slavery?

Simpson: Confederates during the Civil War had no problem whatsoever in associating their cause with the protection of slavery and a system of white supremacy which they thought was inherent in the Confederate world order. The Confederates of 1861-65 were much more honest about the importance of slavery than are the neo-Confederates of today.

In a famous address [known to historians as the "Cornerstone Speech"], the vice president of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens, said in 1861 that "slavery is the cornerstone of the Confederacy." And as late as 1865, Robert E. Lee, who's often cited by neo-Confederates as an opponent of slavery, claimed that while blacks and whites were together in the South, their best relationship would be that of master and slave.

A great many Southerners were directly or indirectly involved in slavery — they were either slaveholders, members of slaveholding families, or involved in business enterprises that depended upon slavery for their prosperity.

Some neo-Confederates talk about differing federal policies toward the North and the South, but again those federal policies — especially if they concern the South — have to do with the support of slavery, the acquisition of new territory which would be open to slaveholders, a tariff policy which favored the North.

IR: What about that tariff policy?

Simpson: Neo-Confederates often say the North and South fought over tariffs passed to protect Northern manufacturing that came at the expense of the South. Now first of all, there's no record that in any Civil War battle, a colonel or a general roused his troops to the attack with the cry for lower tariffs.

That does not seem to have been a concern for the average Confederate soldier. Those Southerners who were interested in lower tariffs were interested because they were involved in the growing of plantation cotton, an export crop.

When Southerners were growing crops that faced foreign competition, such as sugar, they could be as in favor of a protective tariff as anybody else. For example, Louisiana sugar-growers were pro-protective tariff.

So that's again a reflection of economic interest, which in turn is a reflection, in part, of the plantation economy that was the foundation of Southern society.

IR: Another key neo-Confederate argument is that the war was really about states' rights and Southern opposition to growing federal power.

Simpson: The states' rights argument is even more specious.

White Southerners had no problem using the federal government's powers when it came to protecting and promoting the interests of slavery. They only invoked states' rights rhetoric in trying to restrict federal power against slavery.

Divisions over the interpretation of the Constitution were directly related to the issue of slavery.

IR: Is there anything to the Confederate interpretation of the Constitution, with regard to both states' rights and the supposed right of secession?

Simpson: As soon as the Constitution was drafted and put into place, the very people who helped draft it began to disagree over its meaning. Both [Alexander] Hamilton and [James] Madison were on the drafting committee, and these two guys were at loggerheads for years over what exactly the document meant.

Certainly, there is nothing in the Constitution that in any way explicitly sanctifies secession. I call secession a constructed right. You have to interpret the Constitution in very specific ways to come up with that. In fact, you have to engage in the very sort of Constitutional activism that neo-Confederates would otherwise abhor in interpreting the Constitution.

It's not really much of an argument. It's flatly asserted and opinions to the contrary are simply dismissed.

The notion of the Constitution as a contract between states, which has to be the basis of the secessionist argument, falls apart because it only covers the initial 13 signers.

After the original 13, the only thing that came close to an independent contracting agent was Texas, which was a republic before it became a state. But Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana and Mississippi were not states until they joined the United States. They were territories. So how does this argument apply to states that joined the Union after ratification of the original document?

IR: A popular neo-Confederate theme is that many thousands of blacks voluntarily fought for the Confederacy. What do you make of that?

Simpson: From a light-hearted point of view, if there were all these black Confederate soldiers, given that we don't see them show up [in historical records] as prisoners or killed or wounded, they must have been the best troops the Confederacy ever had, because they were never killed, wounded or captured. So an entire army of black Confederates would have been invincible.

If black Confederates were already there, one is at a loss to understand why white Southerners debated so ferociously over the introduction of blacks in the Confederate army late in the war. Certainly, there were blacks who accompanied the Confederate armies — servants of officers, wagon drivers, cooks, teamsters and the like. But they weren't there, by and large, of their own volition.

They were there because they were enslaved. In terms of blacks actually in the ranks of the Confederate army, we're talking about a handful of people at most.

You see a very selective use of the historical record by certain academics who are pushing an agenda. So where there has been some evidence of an African-American taking a weapon up in a Civil War battle and firing away in self-defense, that is transformed into regiment after regiment of African-Americans ready to fight.

There's a conscious effort among these people [neo-Confederates] to distort and exaggerate whatever they find in the historical record to serve their ends.

IR: Another neo-Confederate argument regarding slavery is that relatively few Southerners actually owned slaves. The theory seems to be that the vast majority of Southern combatants must have been fighting for something else.

Simpson: Many neo-Confederates argue that there was a rather small percentage of Southern whites who actually owned slaves. The problem is the misuse of statistics. The real question is how many white Southern families owned slaves.

The way they figure it, if you have a family of five whites and the father owns the slaves, then you only have 20 percent slaveholding in that family. Well, of course, the whole family directly benefited from slavery.

Not only that, but you have to count the number of people who think they're going to own slaves in the future but don't at present. That is a major class issue in Southern society of the late 1850s, and a major debate — a debate which, by the way, the neo-Confederates love to underplay. By the late 1850s, the price of an average black male adult field hand is over $1,000.

And many slaveholding Southerners begin to realize that that means that many whites cannot afford to gain entry into the slaveholding system any more. A book published in 1857 by a white South Carolinian, a deep racist named Hinton R. Helper, argued that non-slaveholding Southern whites ought to wake up to their economic exploitation by slaveholding whites.

That's the kind of message that many slaveholding whites took to heart, and so they spoke about reopening the international slave trade with the idea that if you increase the supply, you lower the price.

The people most vociferously opposed to this were the residents of Virginia. The reason was self-serving. As of 1860, the second most important export of the commonwealth of Virginia was human flesh.

Virginians wanted to make sure that if white Southerners were going to buy slaves, they were going to buy slaves that bore the phrase "made in Virginia."

IR: What do you make of the neo-Confederate emphasis on northern racism?

Simpson: Let's start by saying they have a point. Racism against African-Americans was a national problem, not a regional problem. The white South could never have gotten away with as much as it did in terms of white supremacy had there not been a large number of white Northerners who supported racist policies.

But now neo-Confederates say, "Well, you guys were racist, too, and in fact the real racism is in the North." And at the same time, they say, "There is no racism in the South." Well, you really can't have it both ways.

But again, the war is fought not over racial equality — at least among American whites — but over slavery, the political advantages that white Southerners had because of slavery. The war is about slavery and its political and economic impact on American society, not just Southern society.

Southerners are very much aware when they support secession in 1860-61 that they are seceding to protect slavery and white supremacy — and that that is something that should interest not only slaveholders but also non-slaveholding whites.

The neo-Confederates construct an "other" of mainstream academic scholarship that supposedly says that the North fought to end slavery and that the South was uniquely racist. But you don't find a lot of mainstream scholars who embrace any of that.

In fact, most mainstream academics embrace the idea that racism was an American problem, and that Union soldiers went to war in 1861 primarily to save the Union, not to destroy slavery. In other words, the historical stereotype that the neo-Confederates war against basically doesn't exist.

IR: An allied neo-Confederate argument is that Abraham Lincoln was a virulent racist, far worse than most Southerners.

Simpson: Oddly enough, neo-Confederates make common cause with blacks such as Lerone Bennett, who, in a recent book that is rather selective, recites the old Lincoln-is-a-racist notion.

There's no doubt Abraham Lincoln harbored racial prejudices, and there's also no doubt that he questioned them, sometimes publicly. After all, Lincoln was Southern-born, and had a lot of Southern influences in his early life.

What's important is not that Lincoln had racial prejudices, but that he struggled to overcome them, and that whatever his prejudices, he abhorred slavery. That's very clear.

He struggled to find ways to end slavery within the bounds of the Constitution; it was the war that empowered Lincoln to act in ways he never could have acted otherwise, by allowing him to strike against slavery using presidential war powers.

Lincoln is often derided as being some sort of dictator-tyrant in the White House, but I think he actually toed the Constitutional line a lot more carefully than people give him credit for. He respected [the legality of] slavery in states which had not seceded, and worked in other ways to secure emancipation there.

In Delaware, he went so far as to draft a constitutional amendment for the state constitution to end slavery with compensation for slaveholders, although that fell apart. Lincoln also worked behind the scenes to help emancipation in Maryland, and in 1864 Maryland did abolish slavery on its own.

So Lincoln did work to help emancipation in the border [slave] states that stayed in the union.

IR: The flip side of their take on Lincoln is that two key Confederate military leaders, Robert E. Lee and Nathan Bedford Forrest, were essentially non-racist.

In the case of Forrest, neo-Confederates virtually never mention the fact that after the war, he became the first imperial wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. The LOS, in fact, recently helped to erect a statue of Forrest, who is seen as a great hero.

Simpson: The Lee myth — Lee being above slavery, Lee being in fact anti-slavery — is essential to the neo-Confederate argument that it's not about race, it's not about slavery. They've done a very good job of covering up Robert E. Lee's actual positions on this.

Well, in 1864, black Union troops were involved in operations against Lee's army outside Richmond and Petersburg, and some of them are taken prisoner. Lee puts them to work on Confederate entrenchments that are in Union free-fire zones.

When Grant gets wind of this, he threatens to put Confederate prisoners to work on Union entrenchments under Confederate fire unless Lee pulls out. So Grant was willing to embrace an eye-for-an-eye, tooth-for-a-tooth retaliation policy based upon Confederate treatment of black prisoners.

For Grant, it was the color of the uniform, not the skin, that mattered.

In pre-War correspondence, Lee castigated the abolitionists for their political activity, and he never showed any qualms about the social order that he would later defend with arms.

He also had a few slaves that he inherited as part of a will agreement, with provisions to emancipate those slaves. But in fact, he dragged his heels in complying with the terms of that will. And he never gave a second thought to the fact that his beloved Arlington [Va.] mansion was run by slave labor.

IR: And what about Forrest?

Simpson: There is no doubt that neo-Confederates are particularly enamored of Nathan Bedford Forrest, and that Forrest was squarely in support of the "peculiar institution." He linked his defense of the Confederacy to an embrace of pro-slavery positions in ways Lee never quite did.

These folks downplay Forrest's Klan ties — and his actions commanding the April 12, 1864, attack on Ft. Pillow in Tennessee, which was garrisoned by white and black troops. Forrest's soldiers ran amok and killed blacks attempting to surrender, essentially engaging in a massacre.

White Southerners are fond of blaming William T. Sherman for his troops' actions during the March to the Sea and March of the Carolinas. If you're going to hold Sherman responsible for the behavior of those troops, then you have to hold Forrest responsible for the atrocities committed by his men.

I mean, the double standard there is striking. The same white Southerners who indict Sherman as a war criminal for what his men did in the destruction of property earnestly exculpate Forrest from any responsibility for the destruction of black human life — which is an interesting commentary on the white neo-Confederate value system: White property is more important than black lives.

IR: A related argument is that Forrest's Klan was a justified response to the cruel Yankee repression of Southern whites during the Reconstruction period.

Simpson: The Ku Klux Klan was just an organized form of political terrorism against black aspirations. The roots of the Klan are to be found before any action is taken by the federal government looking toward black equality in the South. The Klan is founded in December 1865, and there's no such thing as radical Republican Reconstruction at the time.

In fact, the president of the United States for the first four years of Reconstruction was a Southerner, a dyed-in-the-wool racist named Andrew Johnson. And white Southerners rejected even his lenient plan of Reconstruction, which didn't look at all for black suffrage.

So it's simply a myth that the Klan emerged to protect Southern society from those venal radical Republicans. The cause and effect was exactly, 100 percent the opposite.

IR: A key neo-Confederate ideologue, LOS leader Michael Hill, has made much of the idea that the South is fundamentally "Anglo-Celtic," both racially and culturally. He describes the American North as essentially English and the South as Scottish, or Celtic.

Is there anything to Hill's claim? And why is this idea so central to modern neo-Confederates?

Simpson: I have never quite understood this. There are key parts of the South which were not settled by Anglo-Celts or anyone who saw themselves that way. This isn't a very sustained, sophisticated study whatsoever of ethnic origins as such.

Rather, it's a superficial cultural explanation of those origins and, by and large, a false one. It doesn't have any meaning in terms of biology, and not an awful lot in terms of culture. It certainly wasn't the sort of thing that distinguished white Northerners from white Southerners.

Again, I am at a loss to figure out what truly is the origin of this idea. There's nothing terribly distinguished about being Anglo-Celtic. But I think that this concept reflects the notion of a sort of ethnic purity, a unified ethnic group which has claims to a separatist nationalism based on ethnic homogeneity.

The assumption, of course, is that "Southerners" equals "white Southerners." But the truth is that Southern culture is fundamentally defined by the interaction of different racial groups, primarily blacks and whites, and, to a lesser extent, Native Americans.

You would have to exclude major portions of the South to come up with an Anglo-Celtic definition of Southern nationhood — New Orleans, for example, with its Creole influences; or Texas, which has a significant Hispanic strain in its culture; or Charleston [S.C.], which again has a clear mix of influences from the Caribbean.

And this explanation of Southern nationalism doesn't account for the large pockets of white Southern unionists in East Tennessee, western North Carolina and northern Alabama. So it's a theory of white Southern nationalism made to order for white supremacist points of view.

IR: We've talked about a long list of neo-Confederate myths. Overall, what do you think that these myths, and the men behind them, are really about?

Simpson: This is an active attempt to reshape historical memory, an effort by white Southerners to find historical justifications for present-day actions. The neo-Confederate movement's ideologues have grasped that if they control how people remember the past, they'll control how people approach the present and the future.

Ultimately, this is a very conscious war for memory and heritage. It's a quest for legitimacy, the eternal quest for justification.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby American Dream » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:27 pm

http://boingboing.net/2012/01/27/those- ... s-ron.html

Those racist, crazy 1990s Ron Paul newsletters? He signed off on every single one, associates say

By Xeni Jardin at 12:26 pm Friday, Jan 27



Image



“It was his newsletter, and it was under his name, so he always got to see the final product...He would proof it." Renae Hathway, a former secretary in Ron Paul’s company and former supporter of the Texas congressman, in the Washington Post today about those wacky racist newsletters previously mentioned here on Boing Boing.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby Simulist » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:44 pm

Thanks for that, AD.
"The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego."
    — Alan Watts
User avatar
Simulist
 
Posts: 4713
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:13 pm
Location: Here, and now.
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby publius » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:26 pm

A Ron Paul would not exist had Lincoln not fought a Civil War. The only currency he has is class and racist anger directed at the Federal War State. A State Paul has obediently served and continues to serve and one his son serves as well. In other words, RP and his son are happy to suck at the teat of this wicked Federal state they love to bash. His appeal is Fascist populism.

In any case my interest in this thread was offering the counter-narrative that had this war not been fought, Federal fascism would not have triumphed. 150 years of US CORPORATE Imperialism may have not occured.

Il Principe (written c. 1505)

Upon this, one has to remark that men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge.
“To think is easy. To act is hard. But the hardest thing in the world is to act in accordance with your thinking.”
― Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
User avatar
publius
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:39 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby American Dream » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:48 pm

Is Ron Paul A White Supremacist? Absolutely!

August 17, 2011
By Justin "Filthy Liberal Scum" Rosario


Image
I don't have anything against black people,
I just don't think I should have to eat with them in public places.
Or use the same bathroom.
Or the same water fountain.
Or sit next to them on a bus.



Oh, he’s not REALLY a white supremacist; He just happens to support them, take their money and advance their goals. But he’s not ONE of them!!! He’s all about freedom!!!

The freedom to legally discriminate against minorities, at any rate.

Oh, right! I forgot, he’s also the chosen candidate of white supremacists.

From The Michigan Messenger:

Stxrmfrxnt.org, a white supremacyweb site, as well as others, such as WhxteWxrldNews.com, have actively supported Paul’s bid for the presidency, including directing donors to his campaign. Stxrmfrxnt has also endorsed Paul for president.

“Once in a great while a presidential candidate is presented to us. A candidate who not only speaks to us, but for us…I am supporting Ron Paul in his run for the presidency,” the Stormfront endorsement says. The endorsement praises Paul’s plans to reduce taxes, close the borders and eliminate trade deals, such as NAFTA.


Riiiiight. Because no other Republicans support ANY of those particular goals. Now, granted, this article is from the 2008 election cycle. One might be tempted to dismiss it. after all, the KKK simply adores Obama as a recruitment tool. But this is not a recent phenomena.

Ron Paul is a hard core racist. This is a known but little reported fact. He has published a newsletter for over thirty years that puts forth a steady stream of stunning racism:

Paul’s alliance with neo-Confederates helps explain the views his newsletters have long espoused on race. Take, for instance, a special issue of the Ron Paul Political Report, published in June 1992, dedicated to explaining the Los Angeles riots of that year. “Order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks three days after rioting began,” read one typical passage. According to the newsletter, the looting was a natural byproduct of government indulging the black community with “‘civil rights,’ quotas, mandated hiring preferences, set-asides for government contracts, gerrymandered voting districts, black bureaucracies, black mayors, black curricula in schools, black tv shows, black tv anchors, hate crime laws, and public humiliation for anyone who dares question the black agenda.” It also denounced “the media” for believing that “America’s number one need is an unlimited white checking account for underclass blacks.”…
Continues at: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/08/17 ... bsolutely/



Virginia is for Liars: Neo-Confederate Mythology, Racist Realities and Genuine Southern Heroes

by Tim Wise
April 25, 2010

What the Confederacy Was Not About

To suggest, as the neo-confederates do that the seceding states left the Union to preserve “state’s rights” as a principle–separate and apart from the right to maintain slavery in those states, specifically–is absurd. After all, the rights that southern leaders felt were being impeded were specifically those rights tied to the maintenance of the slave system, and its extension into new territories in the West, recently added to the nation as a result of the war with Mexico. Because the Republican Party and Lincoln were “free soilers”–dedicated to banning slavery in the new territories–the slaveocracies of the South were convinced that their economic systems would be crippled over time, as they became outvoted in the Congress, and as the nation moved to a free labor system, as opposed to one deeply reliant on enslavement.

That the only “state’s rights” being fought for were the rights of said states to operate a slave system was attested to by southern leaders themselves. In December of 1860, Alabama sent commissioners to the other slave states to advocate for their secession. One of the commissioners was Stephen Hale, whose job was to persuade Kentucky to leave the Union. In his letter to the Governor of Kentucky, he asked and answered the question as to which “state’s rights” were being violated by the North.

“…what rights have been denied, what wrongs have been done, or threatened to be done, of which the Southern states, or the people of the Southern states, can complain?” he asked. In the very next paragraph he offered the answer, clearly and unmistakably:

“African slavery has not only become one of the fixed domestic institutions of the Southern states, but forms an important element of their political power, and constitutes the most valuable species of their property…forming, in fact, the basis upon which rests the prosperity and wealth of most of these states…It is upon this gigantic interest, this peculiar institution of the South, that the Northern states and their people have been waging an unrelenting and fanatical war for the last quarter of a century. An institution with which is bound up, not only the wealth and prosperity of the Southern people, but their very existence as a political community…They attack us through their literature, in their schools, from the hustings, in their legislative halls, through the public press…to strike down the rights of the Southern slave-holder, and override every barrier which the Constitution has erected for his protection.”

So too, the conflict was not about trade and tariff issues, as often claimed by the revisionists. Although the South had long opposed high tariffs on goods from England–which had a disproportionate impact on the South because they raised the cost of goods the region needed and which were not locally produced, and also made it more costly for Britain to purchase southern cotton–by the time of secession, the tariffs had been cut dramatically. Alexander Stephens, who would become Vice-President of the Confederacy noted as much when he spoke to the Georgia legislature in 1860, explaining:

“The tariff no longer distracts the public councils. Reason has triumphed…The present tariff was voted for by Massachusetts and South Carolina. The lion and the lamb lay down together–every man in the Senate and the House from Massachusetts and South Carolina, I think, voted for it…(the duties) were made just as low as Southern men asked them to be, and those are the rates they are now at.”

The fact is, the worst of all tariffs ever imposed–known in popular lore as the Tariff of Abominations–had been most harshly enforced during the Presidency of Andrew Jackson, a Southerner. Yet no state save South Carolina ever threatened secession over this “mother of all tariffs,” suggesting that it alone (or others like it, even less harsh) would hardly have been a significant contributor to the rupture of 1860-1861.

Wearing Their Racism On Their Sleeve: The Real Reason for Secession

Not state’s rights, not tariffs, but slavery and the desire to maintain and extend its reach was the reason for southern secession, for the creation of this putrid confederacy the Governor of Virginia (and the legislatures of several other southern states) would have us commemorate. CSA Vice-President Stephens explained as much in crystal clear detail when he noted that the Confederate government’s “foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition.”

In this address, delivered in Savannah in the spring of 1861, Stephens went on to distinguish the centrality of racism and slavery in the South, from that of all past governmental systems, including the United States:

“This, our newer Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. Those at the North…assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights, with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just; but their premises being wrong, their whole argument fails.”

Then in April, 1861, after Virginia lawmakers had initially voted 2-1 against secession, then changed their mind to support it (but before secession had been agreed to by the voters of the state), Stephens traveled to Richmond and laid out the case for dissolving the union in blatantly racist terms. He noted:

“One good and wise feature in our new and revised Constitution is that we have put to rest the vexed question of slavery forever…On this subject, from which sprung the immediate cause of our late troubles and threatened dangers, you will indulge me in a few remarks as not irrelevant to the occasion.”

He went on to articulate the principle of white supremacy as being central to the ideology of the Confederate government:

“As a race, the African is inferior to the white man. Subordination to the white man is his normal condition. He is not equal by nature, and cannot be made so by human laws or human institutions. Our system, therefore, so far as regards this inferior race, rests upon this great immutable law of nature. It is founded not upon wrong or injustice, but upon the eternal fitness of things. Hence, its harmonious working for the benefit and advantage of both…The great truth, I repeat, upon which our system rests, is the inferiority of the African. The enemies of our institutions ignore this truth. They set out with the assumption that the races are equal…hence, so much misapplied sympathy for fancied wrongs and sufferings. These wrongs and sufferings exist only in their heated imaginations. There can be no wrong where there is no violation of nature’s laws…It is the fanatics of the North, who are warring against the decrees of God Almighty, in their attempts to make things equal which he made unequal.

Additionally, we know that secession and the formation of the Confederate system was about the desire to maintain enslavement of blacks, because of the proclamations made by various leaders of the southern states at the time. Four states issued explicit “Declarations of Causes” for their secession, and in each case their stated reasons specifically spoke to the fear that the slave system upon which they had grown dependent was imperiled. Mississippi, for instance, listed its grievances with the North as follows: the failure to uphold the Fugitive Slave laws, enticing of slaves to run away, the desire to prohibit slavery in the territories, the desire to exclude new slave states from the union, and the desire, ultimately to abolish slavery in all the Union.

When South Carolina’s legislature voted for secession, it reported out two documents from its convention. The first was a Declaration of Causes, which spoke exclusively about the increasing “hostility” of the Northern states to the institution of slavery. The second was an address to the other slaveholding states, written by Robert Barnwell Rhett.

In Rhett’s document – an exhortation to the other slave states to secede – he argued:

“The fairest portions of the world have been turned into wildernesses, and the most civilized and prosperous communities have been impoverished and ruined by Anti-Slavery fanaticism. The people of the North have not left us in doubt as to their designs and policy…they have elected as the exponent of their policy one who has openly declared that all the States of the United States must be made Free States or Slave States…if African slavery in the Southern States be the evil their political combinations affirm it to be, the requisitions of an inexorable logic must lead them to emancipation. If it is right to preclude or abolish slavery in a territory, why should it be allowed to remain in the States?”

And when Alabama Commissioner Stephen Hale wrote to the governor of Kentucky in late 1860, after Lincoln’s election but before his inauguration, seeking to persuade him to leave the union he argued similarly:

“The Federal Government has failed to protect the rights and property of the citizens of the South, and is about to pass into the hands of a party pledged for the destruction not only of their rights and property, but…the heaven-ordained superiority of the white over the black race…Will the South give up the institution of slavery, and consent that her citizens be stripped of their property, her civilization destroyed, the whole land laid waste by fire and sword? It is impossible; she cannot, she will not…”

Hale’s fanatical commitment to the notions of white supremacy and African savagery was made clear later in the letter when he argued:

“…this new theory of Government (as articulated by the Republicans) destroys the property of the South, lays waste her fields, and inaugurates all the horrors of a San Domingo servile insurrection, consigning her citizens to assassinations, and her wives and daughters to pollution and violation, to gratify the lust of half-civilized Africans…”

He continued by conjuring up the fear that whites and blacks would be made social equals under Republican rule: a fate that, to hear him tell it, was worse than death,

“If the policy of the Republicans is carried out,” Hale explained, “according to the programme indicated by the leaders of the party, and the South submits, degradation and ruin must overwhelm alike all classes of citizens in the Southern states. The slave-holder and non-slave holder must ultimately share the same fate-all be degraded to a position of equality with free negroes, stand side-by-side with them at the polls, and fraternize in all the social relations of life; or else there will be eternal war of races, desolating the land with blood, and utterly wasting the destroying all the resources of the country. Who can look upon such a picture without a shudder? What Southern man, be he slave-holder or non-slave-holder, can without indignation and horror contemplate the triumph of negro equality, and see his own sons and daughters, in the not distant future, associating with free negroes upon terms of political and social equality, and the white man stripped, by the Heaven-daring hand of fanaticism, of that title to superiority over the black race which God himself has bestowed?”

Hale then explained that a Southern triumph over the Union would allow the maintenance of slavery as its principal (and only mentioned) benefit, and would serve as a bulwark against black barbarism.

“If we triumph…we can…preserve an institution that has done more to civilize and Christianize the heathen than all human agencies beside-and institution beneficial to both races, ameliorating the moral, physical and intellectual condition of the one, and giving wealth and happiness to the other. If we fail, the light of our civilization goes down in blood, our wives and our little ones will be driven from their homes by the light of our own dwellings. The dark pall of barbarism must soon gather over our sunny land, and the scenes of West India emancipation, with its attendant horrors and crimes, be re-enacted in our own land upon a more gigantic scale.”

Praising Villains and Ignoring Real S/heroes: The Real “Heritage Violation”

Aside from a mere historical dispute however–and truthfully, as the evidence above indicates, there is no real dispute among actual historians–neo-confederate mythology is disturbing for another reason. Namely, it forever tethers the history of the South to the history of a four-year breakaway government, as if the latter can and should speak for the former. It conflates the South and the Confederacy, and in so doing suggests that this is what makes the region special, and that this is what we in the South should be proud of.

Yet, such a purposeful distortion does historical violence to the memory of the brave southerners who fought against racism, enslavement and the subordination of peoples of color. It suggests that the South is better represented by Jefferson Davis than Martin Luther King Jr. or Fannie Lou Hamer, or any of the leaders of the civil rights struggle, almost all of whom had southern roots that ran every bit as deep–deeper in fact–than most of the folks running around in confederate costumes re-enacting long-ago battles. To venerate the confederacy as a proud part of southern heritage is to elevate it to an equal or even superior position vis-a-vis that struggle, and to suggest that one should be just as proud of an ancestor who believed in owning other human beings as with an ancestor who stood up for freedom and justice.

Even for white southerners we surely can point to better role models than this. Why turn to Johnny Reb for sustenance when we have Moncure Conway, Duncan Smith, William Shreve Bailey, John Fee, Virginia Foster Durr, J Waties Waring, Anne Braden, Bob Zellner, and Mab Segrest from whom we might draw inspiration?

Why identify with an ignoble cause led by bigots when we have genuine heroes and sheroes, black, white and all shades between, whose efforts on behalf of human dignity and equality lasted far longer than the lifespan of that wicked confederacy? Why confirm every unjust stereotype about white southerners–which is what neo-confederate nonsense does–by cleaving to a tradition that is forever bound up with racism and white supremacy? In the greatest irony of confederate revisionism, then, those whose apologetics have come to define the movement, do a great disservice to the many antiracist legends whose stories are as southern as their own, and in the process, do a disservice to the south.

It is time for those of us who are proud southerners to reclaim our land, and our story, and our heritage: a heritage that includes all of us. A heritage that is as much about Tuskegee as the University of Alabama, as much about Jackson State as Ole Miss. A heritage that is as much about Medgar Evers as it is about George Wallace. And a heritage that, if we are prepared to fight for it, can be as much about justice in the present and future, as it was about injustice in the past.
http://www.timwise.org/2010/04/virginia-is-for-liars-neo-confederate-mythology-racist-realities-and-genuine-southern-heroes/
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby publius » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:34 pm

AD, in all courtesy, please create a Neo-Confederate thread for your concerns. I almost think you have guilty feelings arising from wearing Klan robes while you doth protest too much post after post. At the very least, shoud you be concerned you have no audience, there is the Ron Paul thread, which I originated on and out of which came to create this thread so as not to clutter the conversation with my musings on the close linkage between the rise of the CORPORATE STATE and the Federal State. More than once I have worked to have discussion on the merits of murder as a progressive ideology. I am interested in learning why murder is progressive. Mor exactly, I am interest in why the salughter of the Civil War was progressive. For the final time, I am not arguing for slavery, for racist ideology, nor even for the favored flavor of the lunactic fringe of either arm of the mainstream war party. I am arguing that the present situation in the United States can be explained by the overwhelming changes this nation underwent after the Civil War which created a permanent war state. This is nothing less or more than Washington D.C.unmoored from civilian control. And we may accurately date the end of the transition of the Republic in it's totality by the creation in 1871 of the CORPORATE UNITED STATES.

Finally, although it is pointless to do this, I am a man of the Left. My work was mostly around
nuclear weapons disarmament in the early 80's, then shifted to my work with Neighbor to Neighbor to stop Conta Aid in Congress and then to TecNICA (Ben Linder was murdered on one of our windmill projects) in regards to both Nicaragua and Southern Africa-the ANC asked us to send volunteers to the 4 frontline states to teach skills-several years prior to the ANC victory years later. I also worked with CISPES and was on the telephones raising money to lobby Congress to stop Gulf War I when Scuds were hitting Jerusalem and PeterJennings wore a gasmask on TV. Finally, my detestation of the Democrats comes from their unqualified support of CORPRATE FASCISM. As for their kissng cousins to the right, i have less use.
“To think is easy. To act is hard. But the hardest thing in the world is to act in accordance with your thinking.”
― Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
User avatar
publius
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:39 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby compared2what? » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:48 pm

publius wrote:A Ron Paul would not exist had Lincoln not fought a Civil War. The only currency he has is class and racist anger directed at the Federal War State.... His appeal is Fascist populism.


This presumes that either:

(a) there would have been no populist anger over issues of class and race in the United States had there been no Civil War; or

(b) fascist populism wouldn't have been politically appealing to an angry populace riven by class and race had there been no Civil War.

IOW: It presumes American Exceptionalism.

Because widespread anger over issues of class and race is and/or has been culturally endemic to countries all over the world. In one form or another, it's pretty much been a universal feature of all societies since the dawn of human civilization, most of which were utterly untouched by the American Civil War. Likewise, populist fascism has now been arising repeatedly in countries where its widespread appeal couldn't possibly have been attributable to the American Civil War for close to a hundred years.

So what leads you to conclude that the United States would have been such a racially harmonious and classless society if there had been no Civil War that "a Ron Paul" wouldn't exist had it never been fought?


A State Paul has obediently served and continues to serve and one his son serves as well. In other words, RP and his son are happy to suck at the teat of this wicked Federal state they love to bash.


^^ Nah. If sucking at the teat of the wicked Federal state he loves to bash had been enough to make Ron Paul happy, he wouldn't have needed to make a show of running for president three times in order to bankroll his retirement. Be fair.

In any case my interest in this thread was offering the counter-narrative that had this war not been fought, Federal fascism would not have triumphed. 150 years of US CORPORATE Imperialism may have not occured.


I just don't understand what this quest-for-original-sin thing could possibly avail anyone even if it weren't futile.

Il Principe (written c. 1505)

Upon this, one has to remark that men ought either to be well treated or crushed, because they can avenge themselves of lighter injuries, of more serious ones they cannot; therefore the injury that is to be done to a man ought to be of such a kind that one does not stand in fear of revenge.


What?
“If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and 50 dollars in cash I don’t care if a Drone kills him or a policeman kills him.” -- Rand Paul
User avatar
compared2what?
 
Posts: 8383
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:31 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby crikkett » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:58 pm

publius wrote:I am arguing that the present situation in the United States can be explained by the overwhelming changes this nation underwent after the Civil War which created a permanent war state. ... And we may accurately date the end of the transition of the Republic in it's totality by the creation in 1871 of the CORPORATE UNITED STATES.


Well, if you're right, what then?
crikkett
 
Posts: 2206
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:03 pm
Blog: View Blog (5)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby Sounder » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:01 pm

publius, thanks for clearing some of this up. I might be naive regarding the unspoken motives of some people, but to me you show the marks of a rather intelligent person. I for one hope to listen before judgements are made that spoil all prospects for learning from another potential resource.

So thanks for your patience

Oh yeah, and AD, an assessment of publius is much easier than one of you, given that you seldom string more than two sentences together, preferring the substitute of cut-and-paste drive by guilt by association thought stoppers.

Although this is enough for a certain kind assessment, and it ain't about your intelligence.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
Sounder
 
Posts: 4054
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:49 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

Postby publius » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:41 am

So what leads you to conclude that the United States would have been such a racially harmonious and classless society if there had been no Civil War that "a Ron Paul" wouldn't exist had it never been fought?
======
Excellent question. Naturally I do not know. However, no war scars, no Reconstruction, no military government surely would enable the South to rise above slavery once technology was adopted. I do not think specific popular fascist racist appeals to mob rule would have had traction in an American world with no Civil War. An affluent and unbroken South-vis a vis the Machiavelli quote which seems quite fitting for a discussion of the crushing of the South to prevent it from rising again as a threat-would be a different place.
====
Ah and now as to what difference it makes-the short answer would be that rectification of history enables us to see with two eyes open. The difference between a Republic and a hollow shell of one is quite marked as we all see today. Once we realize that our history is essentially narrative of the glory of Federal power and then go to the next step and ask how can a CORPORATE UNITED STATES exist at all in a free country where power legally rests in the consent of the governed, we are a long way down the road to recovering our lost liberty. Honest Abe said once "No man is good enough to govern another man without the other man's consent" but this was in a context with his adversary Douglas and not as President. Briefly my gedanken is asking of ourselves, asking searchingly, deeply, why we support these wars at all when we know not one of them helps and all hurt. If we do not support war, why such a large outlay for war? Do we really consent or is it simply custom? If custom, when did this arise? Once upon a time, say 25 years ago, I limited my thinking to World War I and it's back story. Somewhat later I realized with a shock that the great prototype war was the Civil War.

With the Civil War everything changed for the worse and gave rise to the illegal CORPORATE UNITED STATES. Reading writers from that period one is struck by the sentiment-as expressed by Mary Chestnut in her Civil War diary-that the Northern remanant simply wished to impose it's value system by force-as the old US had previously done with the Mormons.
“To think is easy. To act is hard. But the hardest thing in the world is to act in accordance with your thinking.”
― Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
User avatar
publius
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:39 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 148 guests