America Lost the Civil War With The Lincoln War State

[eyeno]

publius wrote:
In the CORPORATE UNITED STATES thread I will work to establish the connection which i think exists between Lincoln's War Dictatorship, Reconstruction, and the creation of the CORPORATE US. Behind my idea is the notion that this period of the 19th century was the era of the great scramble for territory and power across the world. England was scrambling in Africa for land and in India, Russia drove to the East, Bismarck unified Germany, France put Maximillian on the throne of Mexico and invented Latin America, Italy was unified, Spain was a dying colonial power, and the newly minted CORPORATE USA attacked the Native Americans to the West and began their drive into the Pacific. The zeitgeist of the time was Macht Politik. The Americans slotted in quite well.

Good luck with that. I think it would be interesting. I doubt you can keep the black, white, yellow, brown, christian, jew, nazi, muslim, militia, white supremacy, Ron Paul, victim cross labeling out of the thread but I wish you luck. I don't know what will come from it but I hope the thread won't get disrupted and trashed like this one.

[Wombaticus Rex]

I don't know what will come from it but I hope the thread won't get disrupted and trashed like this one.

Really? From my bio-neuro POV, publius has consistently obfuscated/distorted the very clearly stated points of several RI posters and exhibited a total refusal to concede that despite being repeatedly called on it. He seems quite content having a conversation with himself and I'm baffled as to why he bothers interacting with other posters at all. I'm grateful for some new spice in the gumbo, though -- conversation never would have happened otherwise.

Still -- "disrupted and thrashed" is a strange diagnosis from here. Clearly you feel different. I'd like to know why.

[JackRiddler]

black, white, yellow, brown, christian, jew, nazi, muslim, militia, white supremacy, Ron Paul, victim cross labeling

Aw golly, why can't nazi jew muslim militia victim supremacist christian brown-yellow-white-blacks just get along and vote for Ron Paul? Why do they make words mean anything? I hate words!

eyeno, I've always hoped the best-case scenario for your sake: that you're a precocious 11-year-old.

[publius]

everybody wants to be free

No. Actually they don't. To be free is a terrible responsibility. So man invents ways of escaping freedom. I think 99% of men fear freedom. Erich Fromm wrote a marvelous book called Escape From Freedom.

Fromm describes three ways in which we escape from freedom:

1. Authoritarianism. We seek to avoid freedom by fusing ourselves with others, by becoming a part of an authoritarian system like the society of the Middle Ages. There are two ways to approach this. One is to submit to the power of others, becoming passive and compliant. The other is to become an authority yourself, a person who applies structure to others. Either way, you escape your separate identity.

Fromm referred to the extreme version of authoritarianism as masochism and sadism, and points out that both feel compelled to play their separate roles, so that even the sadist, with all his apparent power over the masochist, is not free to choose his actions. But milder versions of authoritarianism are everywhere. In many classes, for example, there is an implicit contract between students and professors: Students demand structure, and the professor sticks to his notes. It seems innocuous and even natural, but this way the students avoid taking any responsibility for their learning, and the professor can avoid taking on the real issues of his field.

2. Destructiveness. Authoritarians respond to a painful existence by, in a sense, eliminating themselves: If there is no me, how can anything hurt me? But others respond to pain by striking out against the world: If I destroy the world, how can it hurt me? It is this escape from freedom that accounts for much of the indiscriminate nastiness of life -- brutality, vandalism, humiliation, vandalism, crime, terrorism....

Fromm adds that, if a person's desire to destroy is blocked by circumstances, he or she may redirect it inward. The most obvious kind of self-destructiveness is, of course, suicide. But we can also include many illnesses, drug addiction, alcoholism, even the joys of passive entertainment. He turns Freud's death instinct upside down: Self-destructiveness is frustrated destructiveness, not the other way around.

3. Automaton conformity. Authoritarians escape by hiding within an authoritarian hierarchy. But our society emphasizes equality! There is less hierarchy to hide in (though plenty remains for anyone who wants it, and some who don't). When we need to hide, we hide in our mass culture instead. When I get dressed in the morning, there are so many decisions! But I only need to look at what you are wearing, and my frustrations disappear. Or I can look at the television, which, like a horoscope, will tell me quickly and effectively what to do. If I look like, talk like, think like, feel like... everyone else in my society, then I disappear into the crowd, and I don't need to acknowledge my freedom or take responsibility. It is the horizontal counterpart to authoritarianism.

The person who uses automaton conformity is like a social chameleon: He takes on the coloring of his surroundings. Since he looks like a million other people, he no longer feels alone. He isn't alone, perhaps, but he's not himself either. The automaton conformist experiences a split between his genuine feelings and the colors he shows the world, very much along the lines of Horney's theory.

In fact, since humanity's "true nature" is freedom, any of these escapes from freedom alienates us from ourselves.

[publius]

I disagree Rex. I disagree. War was a choice Lincoln and his Republican party made. He did not have to fight the war-despite his rhetoric over enforcement of tariffs and could have let the South live in peace. Or put slightly differently, he had to fight the war for money, for prestige, for power and for of course union-and that word rings so many psychological bells I have to wonder about the divided self as well as the divided nation. Had he not fought the war I argue the outcome would have been at least not worse. The North and South would not have become a martial law police state; at least one million more men would have lived their natural lives; the horrific destruction of this war would not have happened; and slavery would have ended naturally in the South as technology was adopted. Manumission by the South therefore would not be at bayonet point and the hostility arising from Reconstruction and War would not be directed at freed black people. Of course this is speculation. However, after 150 years of Triumphalist jingoism by the Federalist rhetoricians, I think it is an argument worth making.

From the Complaint of Peace:


Now, if I, whose name is Peace, am a personage glorified by the united praise of God and man, as the fountain, the parent, the nurse, the patroness, the guardian of every blessing which either heaven or earth can bestow; if without me nothing is flourishing, nothing safe, nothing pure or holy, nothing pleasant to mortals, or grateful to the Supreme Being; if, on the contrary, war is one vast ocean, rushing on mankind, of all the united plagues and pestilences in nature; if, at its deadly approach, every blossom of happiness is instantly blasted, every thing that was improving gradually degenerates and dwindles away to nothing, every thing that was firmly supported totters on its foundation, every thing that was formed for long duration comes to a speedy end, and every thing that was sweet by nature is turned into bitterness; if war is so unhallowed that it becomes the deadliest bane of piety and religion; if there is nothing more calamitous to mortals, and more detestable to heaven, I ask, how in the name of God, can I believe those beings to be rational creatures; how can I believe them to be otherwise than stark mad; who, with such a waste of treasure, with so ardent a zeal, with so great an effort, with so many arts, so much anxiety, and so much danger, endeavour to drive me away from them, and purchase endless misery and mischief at a price so high?

If they were wild beasts who thus despised and rejected me, I could bear it more patiently; because I should impute the affront to nature, who had implanted in them so savage a disposition. If I were an object of hatred to dumb creatures, I could overlook their ignorance, because the powers of mind necessary to perceive my excellence have been denied to them. But it is a circumstance equally shameful and marvellous, that though nature has formed one animal, and one alone, with powers of reason, and a mind participating of divinity; one animal, and one alone, capable of sentimental affection and social union; I can find admission among the wildest of wild beasts, and the most brutal of brutes, sooner than with this one animal; the rational, immortal animal called man.

[eyeno]

I don't know what will come from it but I hope the thread won't get disrupted and trashed like this one.

Really? From my bio-neuro POV, publius has consistently obfuscated/distorted the very clearly stated points of several RI posters and exhibited a total refusal to concede that despite being repeatedly called on it. He seems quite content having a conversation with himself and I'm baffled as to why he bothers interacting with other posters at all. I'm grateful for some new spice in the gumbo, though -- conversation never would have happened otherwise.

Still -- "disrupted and thrashed" is a strange diagnosis from here. Clearly you feel different. I'd like to know why.

Maybe it was poorly worded on my part. I just hoped to see the thread continue with its initial premise to see where it would lead instead of getting pulled into a non-stop slavery issue which was not the premise of the op. I get bored with reading the same thing over and over. I like the strange weird and different because its interesting. I've read enough slavery arguments in my time and I was just ready for a little something different which is why I come here.

[eyeno]

Aw golly, why can't nazi jew muslim militia victim supremacist christian brown-yellow-white-blacks just get along and vote for Ron Paul? Why do they make words mean anything? I hate words!

eyeno, I've always hoped the best-case scenario for your sake: that you're a precocious 11-year-old.

I hope you know I know better. Ron Paul, for whatever he may be, would be but a small blip on the radar of time. A speck of dust in a huge dust storm. I"m an observer of time passage and nothing more. In my real life I never speak of this sort of thing and I don't intend to try and compel others around me to believe anything other than what they currently believe. My paradigm and theirs do not match. My intention is to look after myself and seek interesting conversation in the few places it may reside, this being a fine place.

[Wombaticus Rex]

I disagree Rex. I disagree. War was a choice Lincoln and his Republican party made. He did not have to fight the war-despite his rhetoric over enforcement of tariffs and could have let the South live in peace. Or put slightly differently, he had to fight the war for money, for prestige, for power and for of course union-and that word rings so many psychological bells I have to wonder about the divided self as well as the divided nation. Had he not fought the war I argue the outcome would have been at least not worse. The North and South would not have become a martial law police state; at least one million more men would have lived their natural lives; the horrific destruction of this war would not have happened; and slavery would have ended naturally in the South as technology was adopted.

What exactly do you disagree with? You're not even talking to me. Nothing in your paragraph is a response to anything I have said in this thread. Thank you for vividly illustrating the precise behavior I was referring to.

[publius]

publius has consistently obfuscated/distorted the very clearly stated points of several RI posters and exhibited a total refusal to concede that despite being repeatedly called on it.

This is your words. I disagree. I am simply saying and you folks don't grok, that war is the greatest evil and as a fact, the North smashing the South was a choice made by a President as the South fought a Defensive War. Furthermore, Lincoln is quoted as stating he will go to war over the tariff. AND HE DID.

However, 150 years of propaganda is difficult to overcome.
"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union." ~ Letter to Horace Greeley, Editor of the New York Tribune, August 22 1862.

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movements." ~ Lincoln January 12 1848, expressing the near-universally held Jeffersonian principle, before Lincoln unilaterally destroyed it, that no state could claim its inhabitants as its property.

[eyeno]

black, white, yellow, brown, christian, jew, nazi, muslim, militia, white supremacy, Ron Paul, victim cross labeling

Aw golly, why can't nazi jew muslim militia victim supremacist christian brown-yellow-white-blacks just get along and vote for Ron Paul? Why do they make words mean anything? I hate words!

eyeno, I've always hoped the best-case scenario for your sake: that you're a precocious 11-year-old.

And on another note along these lines my inner vibe tells me I need less time doing this and more time in tactile reality. Its been interesting and fun. I'll still read with interest. I may contribute news bites here and there. But i'm thinking my participation around here may become more scarce. My best to all who haunt this hallway.

[IanEye]

I am simply saying and you folks don't grok [sic], that war is the greatest evil and as a fact, the North smashing the South was a choice made by a President as the South fought a Defensive War.

eye "Gronk" just fine.
Because I am a fucking Patriot.

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[compared2what?]

I am simply saying and you folks don't grok [sic], that war is the greatest evil and as a fact, the North smashing the South was a choice made by a President as the South fought a Defensive War.

eye "Gronk" just fine.
Because I am a fucking Patriot.

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It would be a very grave offense against god and nature for you to feel any other way, so it's not like I'm trying to diminish your very proper and manly sentiments.

But you just gotta feel a little love for Victor Cruz, dontcha? I mean, he's even from MA.

[IanEye]

I wish Mr. Cruz well, but not too well.

[IanEye]

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for more sordid tales of New England (from the Steve Grogan era), be sure and check out WTF Live from Boston.

[IanEye]

Oh, well.
Next year.