Gold.

[JackRiddler]

did she say to keep enquiring or can we stop now? is gold part of the material world

Gold the element is of course as material as the paper on which a treasury bond is printed. As an inert element, it won't react with oxygen, so it will stick around in the form of Au atoms for a much longer time. In fact, Au atoms are likely to stick around several billion years past the deaths of all humans and their civilizations, and during most of the time of their existence, no one will be around to confuse them with the evanescent concept of "money."

As a representation of exchange-value, however, gold is as much a human fantasy as treasury bonds. Which is to say, it's as real as the reigning conventions and the force of law may make it.

ask her for me, what is the ultimate extinguisher of debt in our world today?

Could be a Greek default. Today.

is the ? relevant?

It's mystical.

i just gave out the man's words as he wrote them.

Well good for you. And I stopped reading exactly where I told you, finding the premise that his "God" chose a favored form of money absurd enough to make fun of, but disqualifying anything further he might say.

just read the article and grab yourself a graph: x axis time starting in 69, y axis global debt. i think this needs a scientific explanation. i'm still looking....

Thanks, I can already visualize it without needing to read Christianist propaganda (of which I've read more than enough already, by the way).

Since you seem to be confusing correlation with causation, how do you know the moon landing didn't cause all that debt? Because the end of the gold standard is no more relevant than that as a cause. On the contrary, it was the reverse, a symptom. The monetary crisis of the time forced the removal of the pretense that there even was a gold standard for the dollar (which by then had long ceased to be the case in any practical sense).

.

[Elihu]

Which is to say, it's as real as the reigning conventions and the force of law may make it.

no wonder they keep it all locked up.

Quote:
is the ? relevant?
It's mystical.

where is this god that i may come and worship too?

[JackRiddler]

By mystical I mean the question doesn't mean anything, it's mumbo-jumbo.

Debt is extinguished when the parties to it agree it is extinguished, or when one of the parties can impose its will to declare it extinguished regardless of what the other party thinks.

(EDIT: Or when it's paid off, of course, although as long as primary money creation is via interest-bearing debt, the pay-off of all debts without some default is impossible without money from outside the system or interest-free printing.)

Which is to say, [gold is] as real [in the function of money] as the reigning conventions and the force of law may make it.

no wonder they keep it all locked up.

Actually, by credible estimates of the true believers at the World Gold Council, the majority of all the gold ever mined by humans is “locked up” in the form of jewelry. If by "they" you mean central banks, they're only holding on to about a fifth of it.

But yeah, I'd say the "locking up" is an important part of the psychological (self) manipulation by which the convention is maintained that gold is "real" money and super-valuable in itself, even when it's merely stacked in giant piles of buillon, instead of doing something useful, like serving as conducting material or adorning a beautiful neck.

By the way, we already went through the facts of where the gold actually is back on page 1 or 2. Sorry for the empirical intrusion, but here that was again:

http://financialedge.investopedia.com/f ... z1YX977O11

Who Holds The Largest Gold Reserves?

Posted: September 6, 2011 11:06AM by Michael Sanibel

The chemical element Au with atomic number 79 "has never been worth zero." King Tutankhamen and the Incas had at least one thing in common - they understood the value and scarcity of gold and used it as a symbol of wealth and power. Nothing has changed since.

Even though gold is no longer used to back currencies like the dollar, it is still stockpiled by countries around the world. Since the price of gold has fluctuated dramatically, the holdings are expressed in metric tons (or tonne = 1000 kg) as documented by the World Gold Council in August 2011. One U.S. ton is approximately 0.9 tonnes. Here's a look at who holds the largest gold reserves and the amount of holdings.

TUTORIAL: The Industry Handbook: Precious Metals

United States - 8,133.5
While the U.S. permanently abandoned the gold standard in 1971, it has the largest holdings of any country by a wide margin. While most of the gold is held at Fort Knox in Kentucky, gold is also held by the U.S. Mints in Philadelphia and Denver and several other locations.

Germany - 3,401.0
Germany's central bank, the Deutsche Bundesbank in Frankfurt, is the manager of the country's reserves. However, reports have surfaced that the bulk of Germany's gold is in the physical custody of the New York Federal Reserve. Two years ago, international journalist, Max Keiser received an acknowledgment of these holdings in the U.S. directly from the Bundesbank. (The policies of these banks affect the currency market like nothing else. For more, see Get To Know The Major Central Banks.)

International Monetary Fund (IMF) - 2,846.7
The IMF overseas the economic activity of its 187 member countries around the globe. While its gold policies have changed over time, the reserves are intended to aid national economies and stabilize international markets. Depending on market conditions, it will buy or sell portions of its reserves in support of specific economic initiatives.

Italy - 2,451.8
Italy's reserves are held and managed by the Banca D'Italia. Italy is one of the PIIGS nations (along with Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain), all of which are suffering financial woes that threaten the entire eurozone. Parliament approved austerity measures in exchange for financial assistance, but the country is also embroiled in a political crisis that centers on Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi. In addition to being charged with paying for sex with a minor, his government is under investigation for influence peddling and corruption.

France - 2,435.4
The Banque de France is the central depository for France's gold reserves.

After World War II, the Bretton Woods Agreement established a standard that pegged the dollar at the gold exchange rate of $35 (USD) per ounce. Subsequently, President Charles de Gaulle reduced French dollar reserves by exchanging them for gold from Fort Knox. As a result of this action and other economic considerations, President Richard Nixon ended the convertibility of dollars to gold in 1971. (For related reading, see The Midas Touch For Gold Investors.)

China - 1,054.1
While the world's most populous country is sixth on the list of total holdings, gold accounts for only 1.6% of China's foreign reserves. It is the largest foreign holder of U.S. Treasuries with a total investment of $1.166 trillion as of June 30, 2011.

China is the world's largest producer of gold and can buy gold from its own mines without reporting those transactions publicly. It has reasons to buy gold off the open market since open market transactions would push the price even higher and devalue its U.S. Treasury holdings.

The Wall Street Journal has reported that China dramatically increased its gold purchases in response to inflation fears. Because of possible stealth transactions, China's total gold holdings and the prices it pays are uncertain.

Switzerland - 1,040.1
Switzerland's seventh place rank on this list is notable considering its economy is the 38th largest and its population is the 95th largest in the world.

The Swiss National Bank is charged with managing the gold reserves and the country's monetary policy.

Russia - 775.2
Russia's gold reserves are in the custody of the Central Bank of the Russian Federation. The country has been on a buying spree, increasing its holdings by 21% in 2009 as it opened several new mines, and another 24% in 2010. The Wall Street Journal has reported that Russia plans to buy an additional 90 tonnes per year to replenish its reserves.

Japan - 765.2
Gold accounts for only 3.3% of Japan's total foreign reserves which are managed by the Bank of Japan.

Netherlands - 615.5
The gold reserves and national finances are managed by the Netherland Bank. (For related reading, see The Currency Board: Understanding The Government's Bank.)

TUTORIAL: Commodities: Gold

The Bottom line
The biggest holders of gold are governments, central banks and international entities that currently account for 30,500 of the world's estimated 160,000 tonnes. The current rate of new production from mining is about 2,497 tonnes per year. As the price has risen, more mines have become economically feasible to open or reopen.

Gold has gotten much attention lately as the price has risen to new highs, although it is still well below the January 1980 inflation-adjusted high of about $2,400 per ounce. Unlike money, you can't print more gold, so it's likely to continue to be a safe haven investment during uncertain economic times. (For related reading, see Gold: The Other Currency.)

That old high in gold price ($800 in 1980) lasted for about a day. It was at a time of 15% CPI in the US and near-20% interest rates, an engineered shock therapy to usher in the neoliberal age.

I learned today that close to 600 tons are held by the largest ETF (SPDR, which would be almost in the top 10 on the list of government holders), and there are many other ETFs.

ON EDIT: OOPS! According to this,
http://www.wealthdaily.com/articles/who ... -gold/2491
SPDR Goldshares ETF owns 1126 tonnes of gold (double what I mistakenly calculated from a different stat) which would make it No. 6 on the above list!



ETFs buy more gold as more people invest in the fund, and would sell their physical gold if investors sold the ETF paper. ETF paper holders are, of course, not goldbugs, because they're not buying the precious gold that will turn edible after Armaggeddon. They're buying paper. They don't fetishize the physical gold, they're looking for ROI. Also learned that most gold is in the form of jewelry for retail sale. Also that this market has collapsed with prices so high. So right now if investors started cashing in their enormous winnings (from $300 to more than $1800 in what, seven years?), ETFs would accordingly sell the physical gold and the current gold price would prove to be a bubble.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve, citing the Goldbugs International, oh sorry, the World Gold Council, here is where the gold is:

World gold holdings (2008)
(Source: World Gold Council[20])
Holding Percentage
Jewelry 52%
Central banks 18%
Investment (bars, coins) 16%
Industrial 12%
Unaccounted 2%

Also, here are the biggest ETFs - impressive total:

Rank Name Type Gold (Tonnes)
1 SPDR Gold Shares ETF 1,239
2 ETF Securities Gold Funds ETF 259.79
3 ZKB Physical Gold ETF 195.53
4 COMEX Gold Trust ETF 137.61
5 Julius Baer Physical Gold Fund ETF 93.50
6 Central Fund of Canada CEF 52.71[16]
7 NewGold ETF ETF 47.75
8 Sprott Physical Gold Trust CEF 32.27
9 ETFS Physical Swiss Gold Shares ETF 27.97
10 Bullionvault Bailment 37.1[17]
11 Central Gold Trust CEF 18.81[18]
12 GoldMoney Bailment 19.01[19]

I like how they put "physical gold" in their names even though that's not what they sell, they sell paper representing their big reserves.

I wonder if an institution like SPDR Gold Shares (HSBC, they keep their tonnes in one location in London) would be willing to screw the rest of the gold market? Naaaaaaah!

.

[Elihu]

Thanks, I can already visualize it

agreement

Debt is extinguished when the parties to it agree it is extinguished,

departure.

so according to your logic "lack of agreement" would explain the debt explosion? i do not agree that lack of agreement adequately explains what we previously agreed upon.

[Stephen Morgan]

Actually, it was a fallen angel.

[JackRiddler]

Thanks, I can already visualize it

agreement

Debt is extinguished when the parties to it agree it is extinguished,

departure.

so according to your logic "lack of agreement" would explain the debt explosion? i do not agree that lack of agreement adequately explains what we previously agreed upon.

Your question does not follow at all from what I wrote, so please don't attempt to explain my logic for me again, as one or both of us is/are failing to communicate or misunderstanding.

FTR (for the record) here's what I wrote:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=33158&start=75#p451345

.

[eyeno]

jackriddler wrote:
Gold the element is of course as material as the paper on which a treasury bond is printed. As an inert element, it won't react with oxygen, so it will stick around in the form of Au atoms for a much longer time. In fact, Au atoms are likely to stick around several billion years past the deaths of all humans and their civilizations, and during most of the time of their existence, no one will be around to confuse them with the evanescent concept of "money."
As a representation of exchange-value, however, gold is as much a human fantasy as treasury bonds. Which is to say, it's as real as the reigning conventions and the force of law may make it.

No shit. Prey tell?

If you do away with slave debt bonds, and simply circulate gold coin hard money within a population as a means of transfer, all works much better. (for the commoners) I mean NO PAPER. PERIOD.

The worst nightmare in the entire BANKER world, in this day and age, for the sitting banking cartel, would be for the citizens to demand to go back to a gold currency.

Notice that I did not say a GOLD BACKED CURRENCY I said a "gold currency." A currency in which gold coins circulate through the hands of the population.

SOMEONE would have to give back all the gold, mint it, and put it back into circulation. Oh horror...

When true gold coins are circulated through the hands of the population, and this gold starts to disappear, it denotes that SOMEONE is hoarding it. If it suddenly becomes adulterated it becomes apparent that SOMEONE is adulterating the currency and people begin to notice that it disappears. People point fingers... People notice.

With paper currency this is not possible, and people that steal it are not held accountable. Ditto with digital currency, which is what we have now.

Printed currency is old style bullshit because most currency is digital and a fantasy stolen wealth.

Gold is simple. Its either here or its not. When it disappears it means SOMEONE is responsible.

When SOMEONE adulterates the gold it means that SOMEONE is stealing the assets of a nation. People notice quickly.

Paper is different and so is digital currency. SOMEONE can steal the assets of a nation and go undetected with paper and digital currency until most of the assets of a nation are GONE.

You know this. You ain't stupid.

[JackRiddler]

When SOMEONE adulterates the gold it means that SOMEONE is stealing the assets of a nation. People notice quickly.

So gold is not just the divinely ordained money, it's so "real" that it has you confusing it with assets. It's true, this is much harder with paper. People actually know paper is a representation of wealth. They don't confuse it with the actual wealth. Only gold inspires fetishism on the level you're showing.

[Stephen Morgan]

Can't have gold coinage, not enough gold. England hasn't used mostly gold coinage in well over a thousand years because there has never been enough gold in circulation, and never will be.

[JackRiddler]

Can't have gold coinage, not enough gold. England hasn't used mostly gold coinage in well over a thousand years because there has never been enough gold in circulation, and never will be.

Well, you could try to (shudder) adulterate it to circulate enough coin to allow an exchange of the goods actually demanded and produced, with incomes and prices reflecting an accounting of true costs. But then you'd be forgetting, as I've learned from this thread, that only gold is the true god. Gold is real, whereas the actual use-value, cost of production, ecological cost, labor hours or energy and resource investment reflected in an object are all collectivist illusion. The unnamed unseen controllers took everything from everyone by making the money too cheap! Once everyone has nothing but gold in their pocket, or better yet simply nothing in their pockets (since the gold is too precious), then the connection to the Godhead will be direct.

[Elihu]

Can't have gold coinage, not enough gold. England hasn't used mostly gold coinage in well over a thousand years because there has never been enough gold in circulation, and never will be.

160,000 tonnes extant (and this is only, taking a conservative average of say 1500 tonnes produced annually since the witwatersrand came online in the late 1890's, there is more than that) is over 5.6 billion one-troy ounce gold coins that could hypothetically serve as currency. at 1650, over 9 trillion "dollars". not even taking into account silver which is even more abundant by a factor of approx 15. the two are the most abundant commodities in existence. stocks to flow ratio, lack of deterioration, site recognizability, carrying value over time and exchange value, make them second to none as money.

it's not that there can be no fractional reserves or paper instruments trading as money. it's only that all of those trade at a discount (or premium) and are redeemable on demand as specified in the contract(s).

the concept of value is unique in all of nature to mankind and directly or indirectly governs our relations. gold and silver are nothing more than arbitrators of honest accounting as we go about our business. that's it.

"gold is money and nothing else." -jp morgan

"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world. " -Alan Greenspan

"a credit monopoly in the hands of the state" - communist manifesto

but if you are happy with the job the capitalist commies are doing.....

"The monetary managers are fond of telling us that they have substituted ‘responsible money management’ for the gold standard. But there is no historic record of responsible paper money management … The record taken as a whole is one of hyperinflation devaluation and monetary chaos." Henry Hazlitt

i would curse, but i'm in the same boat...

[Elihu]

damn that's funny....
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/germany-r ... w-york-fed

German lawmakers are to review Bundesbank controls of and management of Germany’s gold reserves. Parliament’s Budget Committee will assess how the central bank manages its inventory of Germany’s gold bullion bars that are believed to be stored in Frankfurt, Paris, London and the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, according to German newspaper Bild. The German Federal Audit Office has criticised the Bundesbank’s lax auditing and inventory controls regarding Germany’s sizeable gold reserves – 3,396.3 tonnes of gold or some 73.7% of Germany’s national foreign exchange reserves. There is increasing nervousness amongst the German public, German politicians and indeed the Bundesbank itself regarding the gigantic risk on the balance sheet of Germany's central bank and this is leading some in Germany to voice concerns about the location and exact amount of Germany’s gold reserves. The eurozone's central bank system is massively imbalanced after the ECB’s balance sheet surged to a record 3.02 trillion euros ($3.96 trillion) last week, 31% bigger than the German economy, after a second tranche of three-year loans. The concern is that were the eurozone to collapse, Bundesbank's losses could be half a trillion euros - more than one-and-a-half times the size of the Germany's annual budget. In that scenario, Germany’s national patrimony of gold bullion reserves would be needed to support the currency – whether that be a new euro or a return to the Deutsche mark. The German lawmakers are following in the footsteps of US Presidential candidate Ron Paul who has long called for an audit of the US’ gold reserves. It is believed that some 60% of Germany’s gold is stored outside of Germany and much of it in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

!!!!!!!!
except it's not...

[Elihu]

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index ... z1oSA9xhV3
Franklin D. Roosevelt
11 - Proclamation 2040 - Bank Holiday
March 9, 1933
Public Papers and Addresses of Franklin D. Roosevelt
1933

By the President of the United States of America
A Proclamation

Whereas, on March 6, 1933, I, Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States of America, by Proclamation declared the existence of a national emergency and proclaimed a bank holiday extending from Monday the 6th day of March to Thursday the 9th day of March, 1933, both dates inclusive, in order to prevent the export, hoarding or earmarking of gold or silver coin, or bullion or currency, or speculation in foreign exchange; and

Whereas, under the Act of March 9, 1933, all Proclamations heretofore or hereafter issued by the President pursuant to the authority conferred by section 5 (b) of the Act of October 6, 1917, as amended, are approved and confirmed; and

Whereas, said national emergency still continues, and it is necessary to take further measures extending beyond March 9, 1933, in order to accomplish such purposes:

Now, Therefore, I, Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States of America, in view of such continuing national emergency and by virtue of the authority vested in me by Section 5 (b) of the Act of October 6, 1917 (40 Stat. L. 411), as amended by the Act of March 9, 1933, do hereby proclaim, order, direct and declare that all the terms and provisions of said Proclamation of March 6, 1933, and the regulations and orders issued thereunder are hereby continued in full force and effect until further proclamation by the President.

In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and have caused the seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done in the District of Columbia, this 9th day of March, in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Nine Hundred and Thirty three, and of the Independence of the United States the One Hundredth and Fifty-seventh.


FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT

By the President:

CORDELL HULL
Secretary of State.

[JackRiddler]

160,000 tonnes extant (and this is only, taking a conservative average of say 1500 tonnes produced annually since the witwatersrand came online in the late 1890's, there is more than that) is over 5.6 billion one-troy ounce gold coins that could hypothetically serve as currency.

Do you propose a confiscation of all gold jewelry prior to this minting of new coins, or should jewelers, movie stars with lots of bling, and other holders of the estimated half of all gold that is currently in the form of jewelry be acknowledged as the new ruling class - along with the owners of gold mines?

at 1650, over 9 trillion "dollars". not even taking into account silver which is even more abundant by a factor of approx 15. the two are the most abundant commodities in existence. stocks to flow ratio, lack of deterioration, site recognizability, carrying value over time and exchange value, make them second to none as money.

"Most abundant commodities," whatever the fuck that means, you can have your hyperbole, I don't care.

Except they're not money. They are elements that people at times have decided work as money. Without the human-determined convention that they are money, they are commodities. Social convention is the only force that has ever determined whether anything qualifies as a common means of exchange or of measuring economic value.

the concept of value is unique in all of nature to mankind and directly or indirectly governs our relations. gold and silver are nothing more than arbitrators of honest accounting as we go about our business. that's it.

They are not remotely that. They are natural elements that some people possess and others do not. This is a religious creed and nothing else. It is one of the most gapingly ignorant beliefs one can hold about real economic life on the planet, which is determined by the organization and exchange of flows of energy, resources, human labor, and use-values.

"gold is money and nothing else." -jp morgan

"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world. " -Alan Greenspan

If the king of robber barons, J.P. Morgan, and the recent high priest of Randian market ideology, Alan Greenspan, both make the same voodoo claim, is this a reason to believe them?

"a credit monopoly in the hands of the state" - communist manifesto

Still an orphan quote, but at least you're finally drawing from a credible source.

but if you are happy with the job the capitalist commies are doing.....

They might be "commie" capitalists, at least in your fevered idea of what "commie" means, but they are objectively (functionally) capitalists, and not communists.

Names aside, you're the one who wants to put the power in the hands of gold mining companies!

"The monetary managers are fond of telling us that they have substituted ‘responsible money management’ for the gold standard. But there is no historic record of responsible paper money management … The record taken as a whole is one of hyperinflation devaluation and monetary chaos." Henry Hazlitt

This is bullshit. If you reduce history to a handful of cherry-picked years, if you're willing to make enormous and invalid generalizations, if you're willing to ignore gold regimes are no strangers to histories of war, genocide, human-caused famines, economic crises, forms of slavery, exploitation, oppression, tyranny, racism and assorted follies and stupidities, if you're willing to ignore the deflationary depressions of the 19th century gold regime in the US, if you won't tell cause from effect and if you're willing to accept a religious fairy tale about gold as God's only real money, then you will still need a valid metro card to ride the MTA, and even then it will only work if the electricity is running, via copper wires.

[Elihu]

Do you propose a confiscation of all gold jewelry prior to this minting of new coins,

always the god-like power of the state with you isn't it?

"Most abundant commodities," whatever the fuck that means, you can have your hyperbole, I don't care.

it means that, despite their best efforts, all the mines of the world can only add <3% (in physical volume) to the global money supply annually.

Social convention is the only force that has ever determined whether anything qualifies as a common means of exchange or of measuring economic value.

so just look at the situation. it's as obvious as that friend on your shoulder. political power via money enforced on the discharging end of a gun-barrel. you call that a social convention?

if you're willing to ignore gold regimes are no strangers to histories of war, genocide, human-caused famines, economic crises, forms of slavery, exploitation, oppression, tyranny, racism and assorted follies and stupidities, if you're willing to ignore the deflationary depressions of the 19th century gold regime in the US,

it should be obvious that a gold standard means that anybody can contract using anything they want as money. wampum, salt, fed notes, bags of manure. no restrictions or monopolies. the national role is simply to coin gold and silver to the standard. (don't have to round-up the bankers or movie-stars with bling. they'll come voluntarily). it should also be obvious that the referred to standard can only obtain under a scenario of "all created equal", "equal justice before the law" etc. no arbitrary taxation, property seizure etc. we have a constitution spelling that out. it's not about the past. it's about the future.