Trayvon Martin

[AlicetheKurious]

To prove Zimmerman was guilty of second-degree murder, Corey will have to show Zimmerman acted with a “depraved mind” when he shot Trayvon.

“The only evidence we have now is what Zimmerman says and what an eyewitness says – that Trayvon was beating him,” Mason said. “Well, if that’s the case, this shouldn’t reach a jury. There’s just no evidence showing he acted with a depraved min. If Zimmerman was being beaten, it’s clearly a homicide. He had a right to carry his weapon. He had a right to confront a person who was walking around in a hoodie in the rain around dark when there had been crimes in the neighborhood.”

Gee, I don't know...saying "Fucking coons" sounds like evidence of a "depraved mind", doesn't it? Maybe that's why the media's been trying to convince people he didn't say it. Also, has anybody interviewed Trayvon's girlfriend yet? After all, she was on the phone with him when the confrontation occurred. Finally, there were other witnesses: the two women who heard someone crying, before the sound was abruptly cut off by a gunshot.

And no, he did not have a right to confront a fellow citizen who had committed no crime. "Walking around in a hoodie in the rain around dark" is not a crime. People have a right to do it without being harassed by armed persons. Having a weapon confers GREATER, not less responsibility.

If I were Trayvon's parents (God forbid), I'd look into suing the "security" company that put a loaded deadly weapon in the hands of someone like Zimmerman, with his history of violence, and let him loose to kill innocent people.

[General Patton]

Please read the Affidavit, it says he said "fucking punks". It was poorly written, like I said before.

At this point, with SYG law, it's likely that even if Zimmerman had started the fight in the first place by attacking Trayvon (asking a question is not illegal by any stretch of the imagination), he could justifiy defense with the witnesses who say Trayvon was on top of him. I'm not an expert in Florida law though, that's just the way it appears to be. The defense has to justify the self defense pre-trial, the prosecution has to try to pick it apart once the trial starts.

To prove Zimmerman was guilty of second-degree murder, Corey will have to show Zimmerman acted with a “depraved mind” when he shot Trayvon.

“The only evidence we have now is what Zimmerman says and what an eyewitness says – that Trayvon was beating him,” Mason said. “Well, if that’s the case, this shouldn’t reach a jury. There’s just no evidence showing he acted with a depraved min. If Zimmerman was being beaten, it’s clearly a homicide. He had a right to carry his weapon. He had a right to confront a person who was walking around in a hoodie in the rain around dark when there had been crimes in the neighborhood.”

Gee, I don't know...saying "Fucking coons" sounds like evidence of a "depraved mind", doesn't it? Maybe that's why the media's been trying to convince people he didn't say it. Also, has anybody interviewed Trayvon's girlfriend yet? After all, she was on the phone with him when the confrontation occurred. Finally, there were other witnesses: the two women who heard someone crying, before the sound was abruptly cut off by a gunshot.

And no, he did not have a right to confront a fellow citizen who had committed no crime. Walking around in a hoodie in the rain around dark is not a crime, anywhere. People have a right to do it without being harassed by armed persons. Having a weapon confers GREATER, not less responsibility.

[AlicetheKurious]

Please read the Affidavit, it says he said "fucking punks".

[General Patton]

Please read the Affidavit, it says he said "fucking punks".

If it did say that though, how would you argue, among the many different ways the defense could create context for that statement, that it indicates a depraved mind?

[AlicetheKurious]

I'm not a lawyer, but why not just play the 911 call recording to the jury? When it's not being fiddled with with fancy machines and lied about, it's pretty damn clear. It sure doesn't sound like "punks"; I'd subject the writer(s) of the affidavit to some deep scrutiny.

[General Patton]

I'm not a lawyer, but why not just play the 911 call recording to the jury? When it's not being fiddled with with fancy machines and lied about, it's pretty damn clear. It sure doesn't sound like "punks"; I'd subject the writer(s) of the affidavit to some deep scrutiny.

Two homicide investigators working on the case (44 years of experience between them) signed it, along with the special prosecutor Angela Corey and the assistant DA. There's no way you could pick apart your own affidavit without throwing the case. Unless they have some evidence not mentioned in there, they shot themselves in the foot.

Corey might win the black vote by saying she was the one that worked on the case when the judge decided throw it out but she could just as easily be painted as being horribly incompetent.

George Zimmerman Judge May Recuse Herself Over CNN Ties
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/1 ... 24690.html

Circuit Judge Jessica Recksiedler said during a brief hearing in Sanford, Fla., that her husband works with an attorney who referred Zimmerman to his current defense attorney. Zimmerman's family originally had asked that attorney, Mark NeJame, to represent Zimmerman but NeJame instead referred them to lawyer Mark O'Mara.

NeJame is a well-known Orlando defense attorney who is serving as a CNN commentator on the case. He previously has represented Casey Anthony's parents and Tiger Woods when the golfer got into a vehicle accident.

The judge asked O'Mara and prosecutors to file motions with their views on the possible conflict before a bond hearing scheduled for next Friday.

All things considered it would probably be better to have a more experienced judge on the case.

[General Patton]

So far the government hasn't done anything to prevent an escalation of racial tension: they've allowed NBP to put the bounty on Zimmerman dead or alive, allowed Celeb's to tweet the address of Zimmerman and his parents, allowed news org's to get away with blatant doctoring of the tapes, allowed neo-nazi's to conduct "armed patrols" (though only in white neighborhoods, else we would of had a riot already), even after the President commented that if he had a son "he would look like Trayvon".

The President's comments are an exception and somewhat ambiguous, but no one, including black leaders, has gone out of their way to de-escalate this situation. At every level there is incentive for the system to work against itself, however looking closer many people went above and beyond the call of booty.

Support for vigilante justice has a place in society, and it's not when you've read a headline and a paragraph from a news cable. But this behavior is predictable, it is a calculable heuristic, there is no way of simply shaming this response away. There must be some kind of dialogue on race to get started on addressing the issue, a public one which addresses the public's views on race. It can't be limited to just Hispanic or Black issues, we all have to be able to talk to each other. We may be tempted to think that the only winning move is not to play, but this alone will not fix the issues either when the system is invested in fracturing itself.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/713/blacks-hispanics
But some differences begin to emerge when blacks and Hispanics are asked how well the two groups get along. A majority of blacks (70%), but a smaller share of Hispanics (57%), say the groups get along very or fairly well. At the same time, Hispanics are significantly more likely than blacks to say that inter-group relations are strained (30% vs. 18%). Whites are roughly equally divided, with nearly four-in-10 (39%) saying that blacks and Hispanics get along well, 32% saying they do not, while nearly as many express no opinion

[Joe Hillshoist]

So far the government hasn't done anything to prevent an escalation of racial tension: they've allowed NBP to put the bounty on Zimmerman dead or alive,

Yeah I went to the NBP website to look at their poster and their was a reward offered for the "legal citizens arrest" of Zimmerman. I assume that means he has to be alive. Cos otherwise its not a legal citizens arrest. So really claiming the reward was a "dead or alive" bounty is contributing to the tension isn't it.

I see your other point tho. If those uppity blacks hadn't made a fuss about this minor being shot then we wouldn't be seeing all the racial tension their fuss has caused.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Please read the Affidavit, it says he said "fucking punks".

If it did say that though, how would you argue, among the many different ways the defense could create context for that statement, that it indicates a depraved mind?

Lets pretend "punk" was the term he used.

Clearly TM didn't have a mohawk, wasn't listening to the dead kennedys and didn't appear to have a skateboard, so Zimmerman was using the term "punk" in a prejudicial way.

- In the old fashioned american way - not referring to a music and political subculture than grew out of 1960s garage bands and an anti authority attitude. -

Not based on anything at this point, as he didn't see Martin commit any crime, just didn't like the look of him. The term "punk" once meant "prostitute" and gained meaning as a slang term for someone who is used for sex in a prison. Usually because they are young and not as capable of defending themselves as others. So in his mind Martin is already someone who is either sexual currency in a prison or prepared to prostitute himself for his own protection.

Both attitudes imply that Martin is less worthy than other people and also a criminal. Despite not having committed any crime in front of Zimmerman, and being unknown to him. In fact Martin is a minor and Zimmerman is referring to him in sexual terms that revolve around violence or prostitution. That would indicate that Zimmerman has somewhat of a depraved mind.

[General Patton]

So far the government hasn't done anything to prevent an escalation of racial tension: they've allowed NBP to put the bounty on Zimmerman dead or alive,

Yeah I went to the NBP website to look at their poster and their was a reward offered for the "legal citizens arrest" of Zimmerman. I assume that means he has to be alive. Cos otherwise its not a legal citizens arrest. So really claiming the reward was a "dead or alive" bounty is contributing to the tension isn't it.

I see your other point tho. If those uppity blacks hadn't made a fuss about this minor being shot then we wouldn't be seeing all the racial tension their fuss has caused.

You can put words in my mouth if you want, it's not going to fix the problem.

NBP is listed as an openly racist organization by the SPLC.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/i ... ther-party

http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in ... d-or-alive
Tommy Christopher: I’m wondering why SPD decided not to charge the New Black Panthers for distributing those “Wanted: Dead or Alive” flyers a few weeks back.
Sgt. Morganstern: ” We have passed the threats on to the FBI. We have very limited jurisdiction in fielding threats against George Zimmerman as he has not resided in the city since shortly after 02-26-12. ”
Tommy Christopher: So, the threats being made within the city has no effect on jurisdiction? Also, are you saying that’s the reason the police took no action, because of jurisdiction?
Sgt. Morganstern: “There were many statements made from all over the state so we passed the information on to the FBI as they have jurisdiction throughout the country and they are the proper agency to investigate this incident. As to your question, which is highlighted below, we did take action. We passed the information on to the FBI to investigate.”

[elephant]

Gee, I don't know...saying "Fucking coons" sounds like evidence of a "depraved mind", doesn't it? Maybe that's why the media's been trying to convince people he didn't say it.

The audio is distorted. Different brains process and shape distortion in dissimilar ways. For me, it's almost startling that you're absolutely convinced he's saying the word "coon."

I find it startling and surreal that you're convinced he said the word coons. But no more so than your suggestion

I'm not a lawyer, but why not just play the 911 call recording to the jury? When it's not being fiddled with with fancy machines and lied about, it's pretty damn clear. It sure doesn't sound like "punks"; I'd subject the writer(s) of the affidavit to some deep scrutiny.

You're rightly skeptical of "punks," but you're so sure of your own interpretation ("coons") that you think a jury would hear what you hear?

Wishful thinking.

[Joe Hillshoist]

Yeah and that is all well and good, but after hearing about this I went to the NBPP website where they had posters calling for the legal citizens arrest of Zimmerman and nothing else.

Given all the other shite in the wingnut media about martin am I wrong to assume "wanted dead or alive" was an overreaction to a call for a legal arrest, with reward money that came from predominantly Martin's family and community?

There was one poster with Spike Lee on it and wanted dead or alive for tweeting addresses (re tweeting actually but anyway). None with Zimmerman on it tho. There may be one. I just haven't seen it.

As for this:

You can put words in my mouth if you want, it's not going to fix the problem.

What is the problem?

From here, on the other side of the world it looks like yet another black youth was shot and killed and no one did anything about it. In fact the cops were prevented from arresting the shooter. Lets not forget this guy appears to have followed an unarmed minor who was not committing a crime, against police advice. The kid turns up dead. Having been shot by the same guy who was warned not to get involved with or confront him.
In the US where race is a massive issue.

Why wouldn't black Americans bristle at this. Its clearly a case where the guy who shot an unarmed minor needs to be arrested and charged. If he is acquitted then its because he has brought what should be a robust defense.

[General Patton]

So, your source is their own website? This is in no way biased?

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/i ... ther-party
The group made headlines across the country in March 2012 when Mikhail Muhammad, a New Black Panther leader in Florida, said the NBPP was placing a $10,000 “bounty” on a neighborhood watch volunteer who killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, an African American, in Sanford, Fla. When asked whether he was inciting violence, Muhammad said, “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.” The group also called for the mobilization of 10,000 black men to capture the Hispanic man who shot the unarmed teen as he was walking through a gated community wearing a hooded sweatshirt and carrying only some candy and iced tea. The lack of charges against the gunman, who claimed he was attacked by Martin, sparked nationwide outrage.

It was a 9/11 dispatcher, a civilian adviser, not the police.

The story conflicts if he kept on following him or or went back to his truck. Either way, simply following someone to ask a question is not a crime. Where the confrontation turned violent is important. Whether he should be charged has already been addressed by the prosecutor and is beside the point - the affidavit has been issued, regardless of how sloppy it is.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be upset, I'm saying that racial relations have to be addressed before they become anymore alienated than they already are. I'm saying that the media and government are clearly manipulating the situation for gain.

[Joe Hillshoist]

This is a quick note thats actually OT

"It was a 9/11 dispatcher..."

Its actually 911 the phone number, not 9/11 the date. Tho its easy to see how the two have become interchangeable.

Got to go out, and I'll be back in an hour o answer your post not make off topic observations.

[Joe Hillshoist]

So, your source is their own website? This is in no way biased?

Yeah, that is where a copy of the poster was. So I looked at it, now it is possible they changed it cos they realised "wanted dead or alive" was a bad look, but its equally as likely that a poster bearing the words "reward 10, 000 for the legal citizens arrest" of someone would turned by to "wanted dead or alive" by a media that as you say, are manipulating the situation for their gain.

I've also read an interview with someone from the NBPP who was at pains to point out the reward was offered under what are sposed to be constitutional rights and protections for Americans.

The story conflicts if he kept on following him or or went back to his truck. Either way, simply following someone to ask a question is not a crime.

No but shooting minors should be. Also going up to someone, asking them a question, and being brushed off, then pushing the point and hassling someone is not a basis for self defense. Which brings us to:

Where the confrontation turned violent is important.

Thats right. Just as an aside, going up to someone, hassling them for doing legitimate stuff, then getting punched in the mouth isn't a basis for for shooting someone either. On any level Zimmerman could have avoided this confrontation by simply not approaching the young fella, and its not as if he had a right too. This is a fundamental point. Just cos you're a self appointed busy body does not mean you have the right to be able to question people who are going about their business. There seems to be some unstated idea in the media, or at least some sections of it that Zimmerman had a legitimate right to harass Martin, cos he was a member of some citizens snitch committee.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be upset, I'm saying that racial relations have to be addressed before they become anymore alienated than they already are. I'm saying that the media and government are clearly manipulating the situation for gain.

Well I'm of the opinion that race relations in the US are pretty bad, and that one group - black americans - feel even more alienated since a non white guy became president. Whatever tea bagging wankers might say about "taking their country back." (That kind of says it all really about whose country it is.)

One way would be to have justice being seen to be done - so when a youth is shot the killer is arrested and faces trial.

Zimmerman is like the guy who shot the bloke holding a dog lead at a Taco bell in Arizona. he's killed someone and needs to face trial to see if that killing was justified.